I’m freaking people out

imported post

Mainsail wrote:

HankT wrote:

If you decide to keep going to the coffee shop, I'd suggest you havea confab with the barista or whoever is in charge to resolve the uncertainty upfront: Do they or will they have a problem with you OCing in the coffee shop.

Click to expand...

His demeanor was such that I didn’t feel he was withholding any apprehension; he pretty much told me there wasn’t a problem. The impetus is on him to change the status quo now. I learned in the Air Force you never ask a question when you might not like the answer, instead, you just use your best judgment. If you ask someone if it’s OK to do something and they aren’t sure (or are too lazy to find out), they will just say “no” because that’s the easiest thing to do.

Honestly, I don’t think they have any problem with it, and I’ve been a regular customer for years. IOW, they know me and I doubt they would have any difficulty asking me to leave or conceal if that was what they wanted. My worry is that the TPD might decide to make life difficult for us if they get enough nervous-Nelly calls. I’m not trying to antagonize them [the TPD], but at the same time I’m not going to accept any grief from them either.

Click to expand...

Well, you can read the situation better than anyone. You sound a little vague, though, about the barista's position.

I would agree wholeheartedly that using your best judgment is a good thing. But the old saw of "don't ask a question when you might no like the answer" is a loser of a analytic approach or philosophy. The biggest problem, among many, is that it pretty much guarantees error. Avoidable errors.

One thing I do know, and we've seen this in other OC hassle reportings here regarding retail stores (i.e., unrequited's Barnes & Noble incident)--at some point the manager/employees of the store will ring up the po-lice if they get enough heat/complaints from the other customers. Even if the OCing customer has been there many times before, OCing. As far as I know, no one ever got fired for calling up the cops on a man with a gun....

Good luck to you, regardless of what you decide to do.

imported post

Mainsail wrote:

HankT wrote:

If you decide to keep going to the coffee shop, I'd suggest you havea confab with the barista or whoever is in charge to resolve the uncertainty upfront: Do they or will they have a problem with you OCing in the coffee shop.

Click to expand...

His demeanor was such that I didn’t feel he was withholding any apprehension; he pretty much told me there wasn’t a problem. The impetus is on him to change the status quo now. I learned in the Air Force you never ask a question when you might not like the answer, instead, you just use your best judgment. If you ask someone if it’s OK to do something and they aren’t sure (or are too lazy to find out), they will just say “no” because that’s the easiest thing to do.

Honestly, I don’t think they have any problem with it, and I’ve been a regular customer for years. IOW, they know me and I doubt they would have any difficulty asking me to leave or conceal if that was what they wanted. My worry is that the TPD might decide to make life difficult for us if they get enough nervous-Nelly calls. I’m not trying to antagonize them [the TPD], but at the same time I’m not going to accept any grief from them either.

Click to expand...

I learned to research the Regs first and then ask my questions knowing the answer before hand. "Well Sir, according to AFI....." :dude:

imported post

EXPVIDEO

UNLAWFUL: No law authorizing nor prohibiting.

ILLEGAL: Specifically prohibited by law.

Unlawful, yes...illegal NO... There is a big difference

imported post

Trigger Dr wrote:

UNLAWFUL: No law authorizing nor prohibiting.

Click to expand...

WHAT?!

imported post

From the Wiktionary:

unlawful - Adjective

Comparative
more unlawful

Superlative
most unlawful

1. Prohibited. Not permitted by law, may refer to civil or criminal law (see illegal). He was charged with unlawful use of a car.

imported post

I recently started OCing after having my CPL for some time. I rather enjoyed my recent trip to Oregon where I OCed down through WA and all the way to Astoria. I even OCed around town and went to a Pub & Grille (Rogue Brewery) for dinner with my family and friend. I got a LOT of funny looks, but no one bothered me.

imported post

Trigger Dr wrote:

EXPVIDEO

UNLAWFUL: No law authorizing nor prohibiting.

ILLEGAL: Specifically prohibited by law.

Unlawful, yes...illegal NO... There is a big difference

Click to expand...

You are going to lose this argument. That being said:

First of all, "unlawful" does not mean that there is no law authorizing nor prohibiting. It is synonymous with "illegal", meaning they share the same definition. It is out of step with the law, or it goes against the law, or the law prohibits it. You are completely incorrect (whichis synonymous with "wrong").

Secondly, abbreviating something to make someone believe that you are referencing a police department in the context you described is illegal. If someone asked if I was law enforcement andI toldthem I was FBI, I would be guilty of impersonation, even if what I meant was "Foolishly Blatant Individual". The reason is because I have tried to deceive the person into believing that I am a law enforcement officer. Ask yourself a question: would a reasonable person think that you meant open carry personal decision, or that you were referencing a police department? A jury would think the later and that is all that matters.

Calling myself a P.O.L.I.C.E. O.F.F.I.C.E.R. is not legal either, regardless of what I meant (By the way, "not legal" is also synonymous with "illegal"). The fact is that there are agencies that go by OCPD and people know that. You are intentionally trying to deceive people into believing thatyou are something you aren't. Please, if you are going to OC, you are creating an image to the public of what gun owners are and breaking the law is NOT acceptable. I hope that you tell an off-duty cop that you are OCPD. See what happens. Try explaining to him that unlawful behavior isn't illegal behavior.


Edit to add:

Since this is the WA forum, I'll post the WA law:

RCW 9A.60.045
Criminal impersonation in the second degree.

(1) A person is guilty of criminal impersonation in the second degree if the person:

(a)(i) Claims to be a law enforcement officer or creates an impression that he or she is a law enforcement officer; and

(ii) Under circumstances not amounting to criminal impersonation in the first degree, does an act with intent to convey the impression that he or she is acting in an official capacity and a reasonable person would believe the person is a law enforcement officer; or

(b) Falsely assumes the identity of a veteran or active duty member of the armed forces of the United States with intent to defraud for the purpose of personal gain or to facilitate any unlawful activity.

(2) Criminal impersonation in the second degree is a gross misdemeanor.

Click to expand...

Please see the red text, as it is most pertainant to you. What you are doing is illegal, unlawful, against the law, and not legal (these are synonyms, btw... have I gotten that point across yet)

imported post

sirpuma wrote:

I recently started OCing after having my CPL for some time. I rather enjoyed my recent trip to Oregon where I OCed down through WA and all the way to Astoria. I even OCed around town and went to a Pub & Grille (Rogue Brewery) for dinner with my family and friend. I got a LOT of funny looks, but no one bothered me.

Click to expand...

Welcome! Congratulations on discovering my favorite freedom.

imported post

Genetlemen, You have all exceeded my expectations. THANK YOU !!!

I am intimately familiar with the RCW andunlawful and illegal as defined in Black Law Dictionary, and recognize the similiarity.

The purpose of my infamous post was to get a point across to a group of non-believers in OC. By posting their concept under my name the responses were overwhelming in support of what I had told them. As a result, my pocket has become a little heavier with cash donated to OC from the non-believers. This cash is being spent to print literature supporting OC, and distributed at the WAC show this weekend.

Had I posted this in another way, I doubt the responses would have been as effective. Once again thank you, please stop by my tables at the WAC show and get acquainted.

Jim

imported post

Trigger Dr wrote:

Genetlemen, You have all exceeded my expectations. THANK YOU !!!

I am intimately familiar with the RCW andunlawful and illegal as defined in Black Law Dictionary, and recognize the similiarity.

The purpose of my infamous post was to get a point across to a group of non-believers in OC. By posting their concept under my name the responses were overwhelming in support of what I had told them. As a result, my pocket has become a little heavier with cash donated to OC from the non-believers. This cash is being spent to print literature supporting OC, and distributed at the WAC show this weekend.

Had I posted this in another way, I doubt the responses would have been as effective. Once again thank you, please stop by my tables at the WAC show and get acquainted.

Jim

Click to expand...

Well I'm glad to hear that you weren't serious. We really are a good group of people, and I'm glad you were able to pass that message along.

imported post

Well, now that that’s over with we can get back to the topic.

No problems last night at all. It was, however, much less crowded than it was on the night before.

imported post

Trigger Dr(or someone)wrote:

Even though I am a retired LEO, when asked if I am Law Enf. or who I work for, I do not say that I am retired or that I am not Law Enf. I simply reply OCPD ( Open Carry Personal Decision) and walk away. I let them make the determination. Some may say this is impersonation, but for impersonation it requires an overt act to obtain information, or perform an act that is only allowed for LEO.

Agree or Disagree I don't care... that is my stance, and it usually handles the event without further conversation

Jim

Click to expand...

This is the precise reason I have refrained from purchasing some of the great looking OCDO merchandise. If feel that If i were to wear either the shirt and/or the cap while open carrying i would be giving the impression that I was active law enforcement.





I don't care if someone sees me open carrying and assumes that I am Law Enforcement but I don't want to start down that slippery slope of playing the part. That's also why I don't wear one of those CCW badges.

Now having said that I feel those shirts and caps are just fine if one is carrying their sidearm concealed.

imported post

+1 bluesbear. I completely agree.

imported post

I don't see anything wrong with wearing any of this merchandise. Think about it. How many NYPD shirts and ball caps did you see after 911? Were all those people "mistaken" for NY LEO's? Same for FBI Hats and shirts.

Heck, I have a hat that says Top Gun that I got at Miramar. Wearing it doesn't make people think I am Tom Cruise or that I can fly a Tomcat.

The Badge and the Credentials are the difference.

imported post

amlevin wrote:

I don't see anything wrong with wearing any of this merchandise. Think about it. How many NYPD shirts and ball caps did you see after 911? Were all those people "mistaken" for NY LEO's? Same for FBI Hats and shirts.

Heck, I have a hat that says Top Gun that I got at Miramar. Wearing it doesn't make people think I am Tom Cruise or that I can fly a Tomcat.

The Badge and the Credentials are the difference.

Click to expand...

Wearing those shirts is fine, but when you are OCing, it makes it easier for people to mistake you for a cop, and you start walking a thin line. I would be upset if I saw someone wearing that and OCing, because I would see someone trying to be mistaken for a cop, and that bothers me. What you would see is your own perception, but I think that a jury would agree with me.

imported post

expvideo wrote:

amlevin wrote:

I don't see anything wrong with wearing any of this merchandise. Think about it. How many NYPD shirts and ball caps did you see after 911? Were all those people "mistaken" for NY LEO's? Same for FBI Hats and shirts.

Heck, I have a hat that says Top Gun that I got at Miramar. Wearing it doesn't make people think I am Tom Cruise or that I can fly a Tomcat.

The Badge and the Credentials are the difference.

Click to expand...

Wearing those shirts is fine, but when you are OCing, it makes it easier for people to mistake you for a cop, and you start walking a thin line. I would be upset if I saw someone wearing that and OCing, because I would see someone trying to be mistaken for a cop, and that bothers me. What you would see is your own perception, but I think that a jury would agree with me.

Click to expand...

I have to agree with you exvideo, but what most people don't understand is that real cops (at least the smart ones) do not wear anything that would identify them as Police. The last thing I want is some joker I arrested months ago to recognize me in public, and have my clothing confirm that he's right. I always carry concealed however.

imported post

Johnny Law wrote:

I have to agree with you exvideo, but what most people don't understand is that real cops (at least the smart ones) do not wear anything that would identify them as Police. The last thing I want is some joker I arrested months ago to recognize me in public, and have my clothing confirm that he's right. I always carry concealed however.

Click to expand...

Which brings to mind another good point! Not only do you have to fear being in violation of a law(or close enough to violation to expect some police attention), but if you dress to be mistake for a cop, you have to worry about the kind of people that will attack you because they think you are a cop. There are people out there that want to hurt police officers, as crazy as it sounds.

imported post

expvideo wrote:

There are people out there that want to hurt police officers, as crazy as it sounds.

Click to expand...

Coming from a family that made thier living in LE for 4 generations it does not sound crazy to me. It was something we knew would and expected to happen.

imported post

expvideo wrote:

Johnny Law wrote:

I have to agree with you exvideo, but what most people don't understand is that real cops (at least the smart ones) do not wear anything that would identify them as Police. The last thing I want is some joker I arrested months ago to recognize me in public, and have my clothing confirm that he's right. I always carry concealed however.

Click to expand...

Which brings to mind another good point! Not only do you have to fear being in violation of a law (or close enough to violation to expect some police attention), but if you dress to be mistake for a cop, you have to worry about the kind of people that will attack you because they think you are a cop. There are people out there that want to hurt police officers, as crazy as it sounds.

Click to expand...

What's funny is that is the exact argument I get from others that try to convince me that I shouldn't OC. I usually have an answer of that being pretty unlikely, but really, what are the chances? Now I may not have to worry, just because I'm not really built like a cop would be. Hair is too long, too many extra pounds, goatee (I think most officers have to shave their beard, but can leave the mustache.), and the fact that I'm carrying a Hi Point should make most catch on that I'm not a LEO. But there are some (like that Tacoma PD officer) that maybe just don't look that closely and make a snap judgement.

What would be the chances of this, in someone's opinion, of being mistaken for an LEO and having some "gangbanger" start cooking off rounds in your direction? This is what others that I visit over by 38th street (crackhead central) have tried to tell me to convince me to conceal. That I am going to be mistaken for LEO and they will start a shooting war right there in the street. I personally think the chances are pretty small since most of these "gangstas" are kids thinking they are tough robbing little old grandma getting into her car. They don't want to get shot, not really. But there are those that are just plain crazy.......just a rough guesstimate of what the odds would be of encountering one of these people while OCing and getting into an altercation with them. Whether it be a shooting, or they just try a gun grab, etc.

imported post

compmanio365 wrote:

expvideo wrote:

Johnny Law wrote:

I have to agree with you exvideo, but what most people don't understand is that real cops (at least the smart ones) do not wear anything that would identify them as Police. The last thing I want is some joker I arrested months ago to recognize me in public, and have my clothing confirm that he's right. I always carry concealed however.

Click to expand...

Which brings to mind another good point! Not only do you have to fear being in violation of a law (or close enough to violation to expect some police attention), but if you dress to be mistake for a cop, you have to worry about the kind of people that will attack you because they think you are a cop. There are people out there that want to hurt police officers, as crazy as it sounds.

Click to expand...

What's funny is that is the exact argument I get from others that try to convince me that I shouldn't OC. I usually have an answer of that being pretty unlikely, but really, what are the chances? Now I may not have to worry, just because I'm not really built like a cop would be. Hair is too long, too many extra pounds, goatee (I think most officers have to shave their beard, but can leave the mustache.), and the fact that I'm carrying a Hi Point should make most catch on that I'm not a LEO. But there are some (like that Tacoma PD officer) that maybe just don't look that closely and make a snap judgement.

What would be the chances of this, in someone's opinion, of being mistaken for an LEO and having some "gangbanger" start cooking off rounds in your direction? This is what others that I visit over by 38th street (crackhead central) have tried to tell me to convince me to conceal. That I am going to be mistaken for LEO and they will start a shooting war right there in the street. I personally think the chances are pretty small since most of these "gangstas" are kids thinking they are tough robbing little old grandma getting into her car. They don't want to get shot, not really. But there are those that are just plain crazy.......just a rough guesstimate of what the odds would be of encountering one of these people while OCing and getting into an altercation with them. Whether it be a shooting, or they just try a gun grab, etc.

Click to expand...

Most people associate the visible gun itself with LE. Detectives usually do not fit the typical "look"of LEO so the chance of someone thinking you are LEO just due to the fact of the visible gun is probably good. What are the chances of you running into someone who is out to hurt a cop? Probably pretty low to nil.