sv_libertarian
State Researcher
imported post
I think I may have caused him to think I was going to "push the envelope" on OC matters. Here is his response to my email of yesterday.
Mr. Coffman,
If you should happen to be stopped again in Olympia I can only say that officers will treat you with respect and professionalism. They will need to evaluate the information they have available given the situation you may be involved in. As we discussed over the phone, they will not treat you the exact same way each time nor will they take any person with a gun casually. They are trained to protect themselves and others by mitigating the potential threat by taking control over you and your weapon.
Officers need to evaluate the extent of a person's cooperativeness when they are dealing with any situation.If they aska personto do something a reasonable person would accommodate, and that person behaves unusual or uncooperative, they will see that as a potential threat to them and the public. In an open carry case, you would see the officers become more adamant about having you follow their directions. The officerscoulddraw their weapons if they feel it necessary.
The onuswould beon you to obey a lawful order even if you question the legality of the stop or detainment. The onus on the officer is to communicate effectively with you to let you know why they need you do what they areasking you to do. I've seen examples of officers on our department and elsewhere that don't communicate effectivelyduring these times and later are scrutinized for not having done so.
One of the things you learn as a new cop is to verbally express yourself as a means to control others. Some officers are good at it from the beginningand some become good at itafter a time. The problem is we don't know the mental state of the individual just by looking atthem or even ifwe know the individualfrom previous contacts.People can range fromtotally sane, sober and cooperative to those that are insane, intoxicated, violent, suicidal and even homicidal. We have to gauge what is going on quickly with all people in order to take reasonable and responsible measures to protect ourselves and the public.
If you had no backpack to place your ammo and weapon in the officers would have handed you back the items separately and instructed you to not load the weapon in their presence.
Had you been carrying an automatic or had a magazine available to you that the officers missed during the pat down that would not have changed anything. Your behavior as a citizen carrying a weapon was still on the minds of the officers. If you would have taken action that was viewed by them as threatening the officers would have responded prudently and reasonably to the situation. That of course could range from giving you more verbal directions to using less-lethal or lethal force towards you given your level of threat.
Mr. Coffman I hope you don't "test the waters" with your right to openly carry a weapon in Olympia. We all recognize your right; but placing officers in questionable situations to test their reaction is not what a reasonable person does. We respect your rights; but you as a citizen must respect the rights of others tofeel safe around you.
I hope I answered your questions and have given you some helpful advice. Thanks again for your help and cooperation during my investigation.
Sincerely,
William W. Wilson, Lt.
Professional Standards Office
Olympia Police Department
Pretty above board and clarifying. I did tell him that I would be sharing any replies on this board. Below is the response I wrote to him.
Hi,
Thank you for your reply. I can assure you I have no desire to "test the waters" with open carry. I assume you are refering to beligerant behavior during a stop. I have no intention but to cooperate with officers requests and instructions regardless of my opinions of the matter, nor will I attempt to interfere with their actions nor refuse to cooperate. I may not justify my carrying of a weapon beyond a "it's legal" or "well, a whole cop would be too heavy" statement. I will continue to open carry in a legal manner as I see fit however, and appreciate the efforts you have taken regarding open carry.
I expected that officers would treat me with respect and professionalism should I be stopped again, which as I have stated before was my prior experience, which I appreciated. Perhaps as you stated on the phone I have unreasonable expectations of law enforcement in Olympia. This is truly a unique town in regards to the proffessionalism of law enforcement in my experience. It is a bit difficult for someone who has only lived here a few months to accept, I keep waiting for "the other shoe to drop"... Prior to Olympia I lived in Lynnwood, Seattle and two years in San Diego County. Perhaps my Southern California tenure has colored my expectations of law enforcement.
Your answers and advice are appreciated and noted. I will repeat my assurances that I will not place your officers in "questionable circumstances" to test their reaction, and apologize if I gave the impression that I would.
This entire incident as you know was and is widely discussed on opencarry.org. As I believe I mentioned, the actions of the OPD and your office have been widely regard as highly professional and above board. I believe the growing open carry community views the OPD and especially your office as quite professional and appreciates your work in this matter.
This should wrap up any lingering questions and doubts I had, and I hope clarifies my position on the matter as well. I recieved my survey in the mail, and will be returning it with high marks, and an appropriate letter. I wish other cops were as professional as you and yours.
Thanks,
Steve Coffman
I think I may have caused him to think I was going to "push the envelope" on OC matters. Here is his response to my email of yesterday.
Mr. Coffman,
If you should happen to be stopped again in Olympia I can only say that officers will treat you with respect and professionalism. They will need to evaluate the information they have available given the situation you may be involved in. As we discussed over the phone, they will not treat you the exact same way each time nor will they take any person with a gun casually. They are trained to protect themselves and others by mitigating the potential threat by taking control over you and your weapon.
Officers need to evaluate the extent of a person's cooperativeness when they are dealing with any situation.If they aska personto do something a reasonable person would accommodate, and that person behaves unusual or uncooperative, they will see that as a potential threat to them and the public. In an open carry case, you would see the officers become more adamant about having you follow their directions. The officerscoulddraw their weapons if they feel it necessary.
The onuswould beon you to obey a lawful order even if you question the legality of the stop or detainment. The onus on the officer is to communicate effectively with you to let you know why they need you do what they areasking you to do. I've seen examples of officers on our department and elsewhere that don't communicate effectivelyduring these times and later are scrutinized for not having done so.
One of the things you learn as a new cop is to verbally express yourself as a means to control others. Some officers are good at it from the beginningand some become good at itafter a time. The problem is we don't know the mental state of the individual just by looking atthem or even ifwe know the individualfrom previous contacts.People can range fromtotally sane, sober and cooperative to those that are insane, intoxicated, violent, suicidal and even homicidal. We have to gauge what is going on quickly with all people in order to take reasonable and responsible measures to protect ourselves and the public.
If you had no backpack to place your ammo and weapon in the officers would have handed you back the items separately and instructed you to not load the weapon in their presence.
Had you been carrying an automatic or had a magazine available to you that the officers missed during the pat down that would not have changed anything. Your behavior as a citizen carrying a weapon was still on the minds of the officers. If you would have taken action that was viewed by them as threatening the officers would have responded prudently and reasonably to the situation. That of course could range from giving you more verbal directions to using less-lethal or lethal force towards you given your level of threat.
Mr. Coffman I hope you don't "test the waters" with your right to openly carry a weapon in Olympia. We all recognize your right; but placing officers in questionable situations to test their reaction is not what a reasonable person does. We respect your rights; but you as a citizen must respect the rights of others tofeel safe around you.
I hope I answered your questions and have given you some helpful advice. Thanks again for your help and cooperation during my investigation.
Sincerely,
William W. Wilson, Lt.
Professional Standards Office
Olympia Police Department
Pretty above board and clarifying. I did tell him that I would be sharing any replies on this board. Below is the response I wrote to him.
Hi,
Thank you for your reply. I can assure you I have no desire to "test the waters" with open carry. I assume you are refering to beligerant behavior during a stop. I have no intention but to cooperate with officers requests and instructions regardless of my opinions of the matter, nor will I attempt to interfere with their actions nor refuse to cooperate. I may not justify my carrying of a weapon beyond a "it's legal" or "well, a whole cop would be too heavy" statement. I will continue to open carry in a legal manner as I see fit however, and appreciate the efforts you have taken regarding open carry.
I expected that officers would treat me with respect and professionalism should I be stopped again, which as I have stated before was my prior experience, which I appreciated. Perhaps as you stated on the phone I have unreasonable expectations of law enforcement in Olympia. This is truly a unique town in regards to the proffessionalism of law enforcement in my experience. It is a bit difficult for someone who has only lived here a few months to accept, I keep waiting for "the other shoe to drop"... Prior to Olympia I lived in Lynnwood, Seattle and two years in San Diego County. Perhaps my Southern California tenure has colored my expectations of law enforcement.
Your answers and advice are appreciated and noted. I will repeat my assurances that I will not place your officers in "questionable circumstances" to test their reaction, and apologize if I gave the impression that I would.
This entire incident as you know was and is widely discussed on opencarry.org. As I believe I mentioned, the actions of the OPD and your office have been widely regard as highly professional and above board. I believe the growing open carry community views the OPD and especially your office as quite professional and appreciates your work in this matter.
This should wrap up any lingering questions and doubts I had, and I hope clarifies my position on the matter as well. I recieved my survey in the mail, and will be returning it with high marks, and an appropriate letter. I wish other cops were as professional as you and yours.
Thanks,
Steve Coffman