University Mall Experience

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I had to go to the mall yesterday to get a new cell phone. I had been in the verizon store for quitea while and had just stepped out and went to the food court to get a drink while they worked on my phone. As i had just finished getting my drink and started back toward the Verizon store I was stopped by the security guard.

He asked me if I was a LEo and I told him no. He then asked me if I had my concealed, I responded no (i am not 21 yet). He then told me that I needed to either conver up my sidearm or put it in my truck. I asked him if that was the malls policy and where there was a sign stating that I needed to do such a thing. He said there wasn't. He told me that he didn't like me carrying around my sidearm and thus wanted me to put it away.

I didn't argue with the man, I just went back to the verizon store and picked up my phone and left.

I just wonder where he gets the right to have me do something, just becuase he doesn't like it. As far as i know there are no posted rules at the Univeristy Mall stating I can not carry. This wasn't even my first time ocing there. I have carried there mulitple times.

Anyway, just thought I would share my intetesting experience. I plan to carry there again, and if or when he approaches me, i will ask to speak to managment and find out the policies.

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Sounds to me like he was betting you would cave to pressure and you did - an alternative approach would been to say "excuse me I'm not interested in your personal opinions" and walk away to do your shopping.

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I think you handled it well. The last thing anyone needs is to get into an argument over something like this. I think I would have said something to the effect of:

"I can't cover my sidearm, I don't have a CFP and doing so without a permit is illegal. I also don't want to leave my firearm in my car as I don't see what good it will do me there and there is a greater chance of it being stolen. What bothers you about me carrying a firearm? Please explain, I would like to understand your feelings. {let him explain} I understand how you feel. I believe everyone has a right to their own opinions. As you may or may not know, openly carrying a firearm in Utah is legal. In order to defend myself and those I care about, I have chosen to arm myself against violence. I appreciate your concern and applaud you for being observant, however, I feel that the safest option for myself and my fellow patrons is to keep my sidearm where it is. {if he has a problem with it after this} I understand your concerns, could I please speak with the mall management."

I want to congratulate you on not getting "in his face", that only hurts our cause and loses us allies. Keep up the good work and keep your gun with you at all times (that's the only place it will do you any good).

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Does Utah have a law stating that there must be a 'No Firearms' sign?

I just wonder where he gets the right to have me do something, just becuase he doesn't like it.

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Property rights trump your Constitutional rights -- as an agent of the owner of the property, they're allowed to ask you to do anything: don't speak, submit to a search, don't carry a gun, practice only Buddhism... If you don't comply, they can ask you leave and, if you refuse to do so, you can be arrested for Tresspassing.

It's basically a condition incident to entry to their property. Some states do have laws that require businesses to post a No Firearms sign in order for them you ask you not to carry, though.

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Property rights do trump Constitutional rights, however, I disagree with the previous poster's statement "an agent of the owner of the property". The security guard is a hired employee who's main purpose is to enforce mall policy as it pertains to guests and work with law enforcement in detering crime. The management acts as the agent of the owner, not the security guard. The guard can inform you of mall policy, however, a statement of University Mall policy is not available on their website and doesn't seem to be posted inside the mall (haven't been there in a while, but not on the doors at least). If, and only if, the mall policy forbids weapons, can you be asked to leave. You cannot be asked to leave simply because the security guard feels uncomfortable with you carrying. His views are not necessarily those of the owner.

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I disagree with the previous poster's statement "an agent of the owner of the property". The security guard is a hired employee who's main purpose is to enforce mall policy as it pertains to guests and work with law enforcement in detering crime. The management acts as the agent of the owner, not the security guard.

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You want to be very careful about making these kinds of assertions without being able to back them up with state or case law or even a simple citation of some sort -- if someone puts themselves into a situation based on incorrect second hand knowledge, they could potentially be arrested for trespassing.

Here's a quick article on Trespass Warnings: http://www.crimedoctor.com/shopping_center_security_1.htm

Anyone who represents the property owner or leaseholder can revoke permission to come onto private property. The shopping center landlord, property manager, and their employees would certainly have the authority to trespass someone. Mall security typically is given the responsibility for trespassing undesirables.

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IANAL and my opinion errs on the side of caution; however, everything I've read indicates that a bagger at a grocery store can ask you to leave and, if you refuse to do so, you can be arrested. I'd be pretty certain that since the owners/management are confering the security of a building to the security guards, Management will simply nod their heads to the police in concurrance with any actions the security guard took in the above scenario.

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Reading the first post, it sounds like the security guy never asked rocknsnow to leave. He simply asked that he cover it or put it in his vehicle. I have OC'd many times in the University Mall without incident. I have walked the mall from one end to the other, looking for signs on the doors, or a mall policy posted somewhere. Guess what? I found nothing!!! rocknsnow was completely in within his rights to walk away from this moron. He could only be charged with trespassing if he was asked to leave and did not comply. Good job rocknsnow!!! Carry on!

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You are right. Property rights DO trump constitutional rights in this case.However, having obtained a guard card in over 6 different states (although I must admit Utah isnt one of them) It is unanimous across the board that the security guard IS an agent of the owner and does have the ability to excerciseany rights posessed by the owner, therefore, within his rights to ask you to disarm... and can arrest you for trespassing if you do not comply. However it is my opinion that this security officer was not well versed in OC laws.. (or CC laws for that matter) as is a great majority of the population, and was just asking this because of his own personal discomfort with you carrying. And I also dont believe that itwas his boss'policy to enact any rule or law that goes against government and local laws... therefore he was just talking out of his @$$. However the wayRockNSnow handled it was professional andthe other postedresponses to how it should have been handled are also great ways to respond to OC ignorance.

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I have open carried in University Mall several times as well without incident. I would contact the mall's management. My guess is that they will not like a rent-a-cop making up "mall policy" based on his personal feelings.

If they do indeed have a policy against it, let us know, so that I can be sure to stick to Provo Towne Center in the future, for my local mall needs.

They'll not get a dime of my money if they decide to enact the policy.

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Uraijit wrote:

I have open carried in University Mall several times as well without incident. I would contact the mall's management. My guess is that they will not like a rent-a-cop making up "mall policy" based on his personal feelings.

If they do indeed have a policy against it, let us know, so that I can be sure to stick to Provo Towne Center in the future, for my local mall needs.

They'll not get a dime of my money if they decide to enact the policy.

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Uraijit...

Provo Towne Center is awesome. This the Mall where we had the 1st OCDO/UCC dinner @ the Red Robin Restaurant. If I remember right...SGTJensen and I talked to a security guard there before the dinner and we stood IN THE MALL. He was an off-duty Officer by the name of Doug. He had had no problem with us being there, he just asked -"How many will there be".

Provo Towne Center Mall is awesome.

CARRY ON

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UTOC-45-44 wrote:

Uraijit wrote:

I have open carried in University Mall several times as well without incident. I would contact the mall's management. My guess is that they will not like a rent-a-cop making up "mall policy" based on his personal feelings.

If they do indeed have a policy against it, let us know, so that I can be sure to stick to Provo Towne Center in the future, for my local mall needs.

They'll not get a dime of my money if they decide to enact the policy.

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Uraijit...

Provo Towne Center is awesome. This the Mall where we had the 1st OCDO/UCC dinner @ the Red Robin Restaurant. If I remember right...SGTJensen and I talked to a security guard there before the dinner and we stood IN THE MALL. He was an off-duty Officer by the name of Doug. He had had no problem with us being there, he just asked -"How many will there be".

Provo Towne Center Mall is awesome.

CARRY ON

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I agree, Provo Towne is awesome. It's actually where I had my first 'real' OC experience. I live closer to Provo Towne, so it's where I do the majority of my shopping. I do on occasion go to University Mall, but if they choose to enact a no-guns policy, I will then make a concious decesion to keep my dollars at Provo Towne Center.

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i love security guards! they always love to tell people their life stories and their opinions and views

*raise your hand if you could SMELL my sarcasm! haha*

Good job for rocknsnow! lets all have an OC meet at that mall lmao!

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***accidental doublepost***

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Hang on a second, people still go to malls? I would rather--->:banghead:

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Sure! I gotta have my Craftsman Tools, and the occasional Pac Sun, or Zumies stop off... Plus the only decent theatre in town is in the Provo Towne Center. Don't spend much time in them, but I do spend a fair bit of money there.

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b1ack5mith wrote:

i love security guards! they always love to tell people their life stories and their opinions and views

*raise your hand if you could SMELL my sarcasm! haha*

Good job for rocknsnow! lets all have an OC meet at that mall lmao!

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I smell it....

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when we going....

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rocknsnow wrote:

when we going....

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Looks like you joined a day late!
October 20, 2007


http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695220748,00.html

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Not trying to speak for anybody, but I think he was saying "when we going" in regard to University mall, not Provo Towne. I could be wrong though.

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your right...it was for the University Mall....