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Thread: No guns allowed

  1. #1
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    I was stopped by the greeter this afternoon and he asked me to speak to the manager before I carried into the store. I spoke to Chris Peasley, Co Manager of the store. I relayed that the greeter didn’t believe I was allowed to carry my firearm in the store, and that my understanding of Wal-Mart corporate policy was to follow the state laws, his reply was, “You cannot have a firearm in this store.” (I’m working directly from the recording, so everything in quotesis verbatim.) I asked for his business card and he gave me one.

    I again emphasized my perception of the corporate policy and he replied, “We do not allow firearms in the store.” He went on to add, “It’s not anything to do with state law…[something unintelligible]…it’s more of a customer…uh…I don’t know…it’s more of a public safety thing…” He then went on about customers getting nervous. I then left the store.

    I will be scanning the forums to see if there are any good Wal-Mart corporate emails or telephone numbers and will pursue it through them.

  2. #2
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Sorry you got stopped. A little ironic, Mainsail, considering some recent statments.

    "What I’m doing is normal, and so I act normal."

    "So far, everyone I’ve encountered has acted as though my pistol was no big deal."

    "My carry is normal and I will continue to behave normally."




    Mainsail wrote:
    ...I will be scanning the forums to see if there are any good Wal-Mart corporate emails or telephone numbers and will pursue it through them.

    The Wal-Mart Problem

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/2780.html




  3. #3
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Somehow I knew you’d been waiting to pounce. My carry is normal and I continue to act normal; nothing has changed. I never said the battle was over or won. There seems to be long spells where nobody has a problem with OC at all, then….poof!

    Thanks for the link.

    EDIT: I'll never figure out what this forum does to the formatting....


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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Mainsail wrote:


    My carry is normal and I continue to act normal; nothing has changed.
    What is your estimatedpercentage of the adult population who OC'sin your state/county/city/area?

    Ballpark.

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    Do you mean the walmart up by Marysville? I ask because there are two lakewoods in washington.

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    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    HankT wrote:
    Mainsail wrote:


    My carry is normal and I continue to act normal; nothing has changed.
    What is your estimatedpercentage of the adult population who OC'sin your state/county/city/area?

    Ballpark.
    HankT, do you ever post to the forums without intent to cause conflict?.....
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
    KF7GEA

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    Mainsail wrote:
    I was stopped by the greeter this afternoon and he asked me to speak to the manager before I carried into the store. I spoke to Chris Peasley, Co Manager of the store.
    Sounds like you turned a greeter's comment into a question for management - if so, not the way to go - that's like asking permission and forcing a private actor to ratify your carry.

    We never want to put a private actor, or an LEO on the spot to ratify our carry.

    I have never has a greeter say boo to me at Wal Marts in Virginia, North Carolina, nor Kentucky while open carrying - and if they had, I would most likley calmly smile and remark somthing like "open carry is legal in this state" and otherwise just ignore them and go about my business.



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    HankT wrote:
    Mainsail wrote:


    My carry is normal and I continue to act normal; nothing has changed.
    What is your estimatedpercentage of the adult population who OC'sin your state/county/city/area?

    Ballpark.
    Normal also means "serving to establish a standard". I think Mainsails carry is normal.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Mainsail wrote:
    (I’m working directly from the recording, so everything in quotesis verbatim.)

    Just so people know, recording one's voice without consent is against the law, and also open's one up to tort liability. FYI.

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    Correct me if I am wrong Marty, but that only applies if there is a reasonableexpectation of privacy. Does it not?
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  11. #11
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    Mainsail wrote:
    I was stopped by the greeter this afternoon and he asked me to speak to the manager before I carried into the store. I spoke to Chris Peasley, Co Manager of the store.
    Sounds like you turned a greeter's comment into a question for management - if so, not the way to go - that's like asking permission and forcing a private actor to ratify your carry.

    We never want to put a private actor, or an LEO on the spot to ratify our carry.

    I have never has a greeter say boo to me at Wal Marts in Virginia, North Carolina, nor Kentucky while open carrying - and if they had, I would most likley calmly smile and remark somthing like "open carry is legal in this state" and otherwise just ignore them and go about my business.

    No, I didn’t elaborate much on the greeter since he wasn’t really important to the story. The greeter has almost no authority. He didn’t comment, he told me that my pistol was not allowed.

    When I entered the store, the greeter motioned me aside and told me that I couldn’t enter with my pistol. I stated my understanding of how Wal-Mart’s policy is supposed to mirror the state laws. He then realized the pointlessness of us arguing the issue, so he asked me to speak to the manager instead. I wasn’t going to just shove the greeter aside and enter- and I didn’t want to leave, so speaking to the manager seemed like the best choice.

    I was actually surprised at Mr. Peasely’s response. I thought he would correct the greeter and offer an apology. Like I said, I’ve carried in that store at least three times before and never had an issue with the greeters or anyone else.

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    In WA, recording a conversation without all parties being aware is illegal. In other states it is common to be able to record any conversation which you are a part of without notifying the other parties.

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    Hey Misguided child.. do you have a RCW for that? thx

    Never mind, i found it: RCW 9.73.030 section 1.b. BUT does a conversation in the entry way of Wal-Mart count as a 'private' conversation?

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    Mainsail wrote:
    (I’m working directly from the recording, so everything in quotesis verbatim.)
    You know it's illegal to record a conversation in Washington Statewithout notification and consent of all parties.


    RCW 9.73.030

    (1) Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, it shall be unlawful for any individual, partnership, corporation, association, or the state of Washington, its agencies, and political subdivisions to intercept, or record any:

    (a) Private communication transmitted by telephone, telegraph, radio, or other device between two or more individuals between points within or without the state by any device electronic or otherwise designed to record and/or transmit said communication regardless how such device is powered or actuated, without first obtaining the consent of all the participants in the communication;

    (b) Private conversation, by any device electronic or otherwise designed to record or transmit such conversation regardless how the device is powered or actuated without first obtaining the consent of all the persons engaged in the conversation.
    State v. Flora makes an exception to Law Enforcement, meaning thata conversation with a police officer is not considered private, and you are not required to inform them.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Marty Hayes wrote:
    Mainsail wrote:
    (I’m working directly from the recording, so everything in quotesis verbatim.)

    Just so people know, recording one's voice without consent is against the law, and also open's one up to tort liability. FYI.
    Not in this case, Marty. Btw, a few clarifications.

    1) The law is not a "consent" law. It is a notification law. Meaning that when I notify you of a recording that I'm making in a private setting of a private conversation, your only choice is to ****.

    2) Doesn't apply in this case. The leading case in interpreting our statute is State v. Florida

    To quote verbatim:

    The State advances no persuasive basis for its contention that the conversation between the officers and Flora should be considered private. We note in particular that in none of the cases it cites as controlling were public officers asserting a privacy interest in statements uttered in the course of performing their official and public duties. Rather, the question in those cases was whether the personal privacy of an individual was improperly invaded.

    Is it a violation of personal privacy when you're acting in your public duty as a manager of a wal-mart? No. Again, the term is "PRIVATE" conversation, and since we're dealing with state law, it must be interpreted as tightly as possible against the state. See the below quote on what is entitled to be private, direct from the Flora case.


    It is clear, however, that there must be something in the nature of prying or intrusion, . . . It is clear also that the thing into which there is intrusion or prying must be, and be entitled to be, private.


    Same question, same answer. There is no expectation of privacy in this setting. The manager is acting in his public capacity, he isn't at his home or in a restaurant booth having a one on one conversation.

    Just like open carry, there is also a lot misinformation as to whether or not recording is legal, and cops have threatened to arrest people "I told you to turn that off" when they were being told overtly that they are being recorded, arresting people falsely, even though Flora is still and will most likely continue to be controlling as appellate case law.

    Most people tend to read the first part and then not read the rest about private conversation, or read into the interpretations of the caselaw that our courts have written.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Thanks for the clarification Lonnie.

    The conversation took place in the doorway of the manager’s office, about six feet from the (very active) customer service desk. There was also another man in the office with Mr. Peasley, I believe he was loss prevention given that he appeared to be viewing some monitors.

    No part of our conversation could in any way be considered ‘private’.



  17. #17
    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    Just add a statement that: "be advised this is not a private conversation!"

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    Well guys, I beg to differ regarding what constitutes a private conversation, and I believe Wal-mart would see the issue differently, and they have millions of dollars to spend on attorney fees. In any event, I would be careful.

    Marty

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Marty Hayes wrote:
    Well guys, I beg to differ regarding what constitutes a private conversation, and I believe Wal-mart would see the issue differently, and they have millions of dollars to spend on attorney fees. In any event, I would be careful.

    Marty
    Excellent point. Mainsail is crafting a definition of private that is convenient to his own interests. I'd hate to see him get jammed up with Wal-Mart's legal beagles. They play hardball.

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    HankT wrote:
    Marty Hayes wrote:
    Well guys, I beg to differ regarding what constitutes a private conversation, and I believe Wal-mart would see the issue differently, and they have millions of dollars to spend on attorney fees. In any event, I would be careful.

    Marty
    Excellent point. Mainsail is crafting a definition of private that is convenient to his own interests. I'd hate to see him get jammed up with Wal-Mart's legal beagles. They play hardball.
    They do play hardball. I consulted on a case involving Wal-Mart and I know of what you speak, and the caselaw througout the country is rife with Wal-mart cases they have taken all the way up the legal chain.

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    Was anything the manager or the LP officer said meant for anyone to hear other than mainsail? If not, then it was a private conversation. Just because the door is open does not mean that it is a public conversation.

    More than one person (the loss prevention officer) involved in the conversation does not make it a public conversation, either. That is why the law is to inform "all parties", as in the law is assuming that there are 1or morepeople involved in the private conversation.

    This conversation does not sound like it was at a loud volume, or in some way meant to be public, especially since you were at least part way in an office, and I think you may be hard pressed to convince a jury otherwise. If you want to risk walking the line and let a jury decide if you broke the law, that is your deal. Personally, I make sure that what I do is spelled out to the letter of the law.

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    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    IANAL. There are differences between criminal law and civil law. Could Mainsail be charged criminally? Lonnie thinks no; Marty thinks yes. Could he be sued? Probably. Anyone can sue anyone else for just about anything. But, would Wal-Mart’s gains exceed their costs (financial and bad publicity), if they prevailed in a civil suit? I doubt it. Then again, IANAL (but I think Marty is).

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    Ajetpilot wrote:
    Then again, IANAL (but I think Marty is).
    Not yet, but I have finished law school.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Ajetpilot wrote:
    IANAL. There are differences between criminal law and civil law. Could Mainsail be charged criminally? Lonnie thinks no; Marty thinks yes. Could he be sued? Probably. Anyone can sue anyone else for just about anything. But, would Wal-Mart’s gains exceed their costs (financial and bad publicity), if they prevailed in a civil suit? I doubt it. Then again, IANAL (but I think Marty is).
    Cost is not an issue with a corporation such as Wally World. They have either staff counsel or attorneys on retainer in every state they do business in. Their "Legal Expenses" are a line item in their annual budget. One case, more or less, doesn't even get noticed in their day to day operation. The only ones that make the news are where they are sued for back or overtime wages and when they are sued to block expansion.

    FWIW, how many here have attorneys on retainer? That have "Legal Expenses" as a budget item. That use 7 or more figures when showing these expenses?
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    expvideo wrote:
    Mainsail wrote:
    (I’m working directly from the recording, so everything in quotesis verbatim.)
    You know it's illegal to record a conversation in Washington Statewithout notification and consent of all parties.


    RCW 9.73.030

    (1) Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, it shall be unlawful for any individual, partnership, corporation, association, or the state of Washington, its agencies, and political subdivisions to intercept, or record any:

    (a) Private communication transmitted by telephone, telegraph, radio, or other device between two or more individuals between points within or without the state by any device electronic or otherwise designed to record and/or transmit said communication regardless how such device is powered or actuated, without first obtaining the consent of all the participants in the communication;

    (b) Private conversation, by any device electronic or otherwise designed to record or transmit such conversation regardless how the device is powered or actuated without first obtaining the consent of all the persons engaged in the conversation.
    State v. Flora makes an exception to Law Enforcement, meaning thata conversation with a police officer is not considered private, and you are not required to inform them.
    Is "Private conversation" defined anywhere in the RCW's? I can't find one...

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