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Thread: Kinda a big Q...

  1. #1
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    mom and dad went to get their CWPs today, and the instructor told them that "OC is legal in the state of UT, but its FEDERALLY illegal..." so in that case... since its legal in the state of UT... would it also be legal to OC a firearm WITHIN 1000' of a school (since thats just a FEDERAL law )

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    and since its federally illegal... feds can bust us, right?

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    I would have asked to sight a federal law that makes OC illegal.



    Edit: I tried to post this earlier but there was a problem and when I reposted it I forgot to specify "federal law"sorry.

  4. #4
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    By the way you worded this post, I am assuming that you are aware that he is full of ****. These are the same people that say "Open carry is illegal in Utah" or "Concealed Firearm Permit REQUIRES you to conceal" LIES! Read the laws. Know the laws. Respect the laws. As for OC near within 1000 feet of a school, is there actually a law that has the words "1000 feet" in it?

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    I get to answer my own question.

    TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 44

    §921. Definitions

    (25) The term “school zone” means—

    (A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or
    (B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Don't forget 922(q)(2)(B)(ii):
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

    So as long as it's good by your state laws, within 1000' is exempted with your CHP (not necessarily on school grounds of course).
    -Unrequited

  7. #7
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Of course! FWIW, I have OC'd in my daughters Elementary School. :shock: No SWAT team... yet!
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    I did to right in front of a cop and he didn't say anything. I don't think he noticed though! Just looks is all.:shock::shock::shock:
    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
    Thomas Jefferson

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    What else did he teach them wrong?

    I'd suggest they do some heavy reasearch of allthe laws themselves. I wouldn't trust this bozo...

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    Regular Member UtahRSO's Avatar
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    My instructor and my wife's instructor (separate instructors) were both great, and I know a few others who (I'm sure) would give correct information. But I was talking to another guy as we walked the fitness center track. He told me he taught CFP classes, but his knowledge of Utah laws had a lot of gaps!

    I was carrying openly, as I usually do there, and He asked me if I had my CFP. I answered yes, and he told me I was breaking the law. He said that once a person has their concealed firearms permit, they were breaking the law if they carried openly. He told me I was in danger of being arrested.

    I told him if that was what he was telling his students, they ought to demand their money back, and he should take a class from someone who knew the laws. There's always some clown who slips through the cracks, isn't there?

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    UtahRSO wrote:
    My instructor and my wife's instructor (separate instructors) were both great, and I know a few others who (I'm sure) would give correct information. But I was talking to another guy as we walked the fitness center track. He told me he taught CFP classes, but his knowledge of Utah laws had a lot of gaps!

    I was carrying openly, as I usually do there, and He asked me if I had my CFP. I answered yes, and he told me I was breaking the law. He said that once a person has their concealed firearms permit, they were breaking the law if they carried openly. He told me I was in danger of being arrested.

    I told him if that was what he was telling his students, they ought to demand their money back, and he should take a class from someone who knew the laws. There's always some clown who slips through the cracks, isn't there?
    This is ONE of the many reasons I would like to become an Instructor for CFP's. I am trying to go thru a class with Clark Aposhian. There are so many "mislead" permit holders out there.

    I know I don't EVERYTHING but I do know alot and If I don't know I research. I ask People that knows the Laws/Codes. I study the Laws to know when asked by People and to be prepared when approached by LEO's.

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    Code:
    United States Code Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 44, Section 922
    
    1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or 
    otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has 
    reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile--
    (A) a handgun; or
    (B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
    
    (2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to 
    knowingly possess--
    (A) a handgun; or
    (B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
    
    (3) This subsection does not apply to--
    (A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or ammunition to a 
    juvenile or to the possession or use of a handgun or ammunition by a 
    juvenile if the handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by the 
    juvenile--
    (i) in the course of employment, in the course of ranching 
    or farming related to activities at the residence of the 
    juvenile (or on property used for ranching or farming at which 
    the juvenile, with the permission of the property owner or 
    lessee, is performing activities related to the operation of the 
    farm or ranch), target practice, hunting, or a course of 
    instruction in the safe and lawful use of a handgun;
    (ii) with the prior written consent of the juvenile's parent 
    or guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local 
    law from possessing a firearm, except--
    (I) during transportation by the juvenile of an unloaded 
    handgun in a locked container directly from the place of 
    transfer to a place at which an activity described in clause 
    (i) is to take place and transportation by the juvenile of 
    that handgun, unloaded and in a locked container, directly 
    from the place at which such an activity took place to the 
    transferor; or
    (II) with respect to ranching or farming activities as 
    described in clause (i), a juvenile may possess and use a 
    handgun or ammunition with the prior written approval of the 
    juvenile's parent or legal guardian and at the direction of 
    an adult who is not prohibited by Federal, State or local 
    law from possessing a firearm;
    
    (iii) the juvenile has the prior written consent in the 
    juvenile's possession at all times when a handgun is in the 
    possession of the juvenile; and
    (iv) in accordance with State and local law;
    
    (B) a juvenile who is a member of the Armed Forces of the United 
    States or the National Guard who possesses or is armed with a 
    handgun in the line of duty;
    (C) a transfer by inheritance of title (but not possession) of a 
    handgun or ammunition to a juvenile; or
    (D) the possession of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile 
    taken in defense of the juvenile or other persons against an 
    intruder into the residence of the juvenile or a residence in which 
    the juvenile is an invited guest.
    
    (4) A handgun or ammunition, the possession of which is transferred 
    to a juvenile in circumstances in which the transferor is not in 
    violation of this subsection shall not be subject to permanent 
    confiscation by the Government if its possession by the juvenile 
    subsequently becomes unlawful because of the conduct of the juvenile, 
    but shall be returned to the lawful owner when such handgun or 
    ammunition is no longer required by the Government for the purposes of 
    investigation or prosecution.
    (5) For purposes of this subsection, the term ``juvenile'' means a 
    person who is less than 18 years of age.
    (6)(A) In a prosecution of a violation of this subsection, the court 
    shall require the presence of a juvenile defendant's parent or legal 
    guardian at all proceedings.
    (B) The court may use the contempt power to enforce subparagraph 
    (A).
    (C) The court may excuse attendance of a parent or legal guardian of 
    a juvenile defendant at a proceeding in a prosecution of a violation of 
    this subsection for good cause shown.
    (y) Provisions Relating to Aliens Admitted Under Nonimmigrant 
    Visas.--
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  13. #13
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    SGT Jensen...Huh ???

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    This is in response to a phone call from b1ack5mith. The CFP instructor told his parents that federal law requires handgun owners to be 21. This is the code that says otherwise.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Ooooh, gotcha.

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    I think the federal law (against openly carrying under age 21) only applies if you're wearing a"U.S. Border Patrol" hat.

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    show me that law, combatcarry if anyone asked me if i was LE, id tell them the truth! im just a minuteman who supports the border patrol

  18. #18
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    pete, become an insructor and teach these people the right way! and someone give me clark aphosians # incase im ever introuble with the law, so i can keep him on my cellphone contacts list to save my butt hahahahah!

  19. #19
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    Clark gave me his number once when I asked him if I could carry on the Utah State Capital property.

    But, he specifically told me don't give it to, "Anybody with a US Border Patrol hat!!!"

    P.S. I can carry on these type of things forever... Just ask my sister-in-law... as long as I'm laughing at my own teasing I can go on and on and on and on...




  20. #20
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    ok, and back to the school subject... does it say "must be atleast 1000' away from the school if you are in posession of a loaded firearm"? because if it does... LEGALLY were not breaking the law! (weapon is deemed loaded when an unexpended cartridge is in firing position )

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    hahahah okay combat BUT!!!... ONLY u and kevin get to pick on me lmao!

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    b1ack5mith wrote:
    ok, and back to the school subject... does it say "must be atleast 1000' away from the school if you are in posession of a loaded firearm"? because if it does... LEGALLY were not breaking the law! (weapon is deemed loaded when an unexpended cartridge is in firing position )

    As a NON-Permit holder you cannot be within a 1000feet of school/Property with ANY Firearm.

    http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/h...1----000-.html

    25) The term “school zone” means—

    (A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or
    (B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.

    This means you couldn't even LIVE within a 1000 feet without a Permit, which to me is Unconstitutional.

    (26) The term “school” means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.


  23. #23
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Here is part of the "school zone" law... Firearms on private property within that 1000 feet are allowed.

    (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm— (i) on private property not part of school grounds
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    "excuse me, youre carrying a firearm in a school zone sir."

    "what? oh im sorry officer! i was not educated that this was a school zone!" like that? lol!

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    Thanks Sarg.

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