Arrested in Courthouse

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LEO 229 wrote:

Thundar wrote:

LEO 229 you have quite an elitist attitude. I do not trust the government to protect me.

1. The prohibition against the right to bear arms in the building that is supposed to uphold our constitutional rights and limit the overreaching power of governmentis quite ironic, don't you think?

2. The sheriff's office is under no obligation to protect you.

3. Taking items designed for personal protection into the courthousehas everything to do with personal protection.

4. There is nogun free zonefor the arrival of persons outside of the secure area, yet no way for the individual to defend themselves because they must be disarmed prior to entry.

5. Yes I understand the prohibition against carrying in the secure area of a jail. I cannot fathom any other justifiable government prohibition against the right to bear arms.

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Good. You should not expect anyone to provide you ANY protection. The police cannot be with you 24 hours a day so you need to protect yourself. This is why I am FOR the people to be armed. I guess you missed that post.

You may not like a great many rules but If you think about it... someone F'ed up somewhere and caused it to surface. Just like so many things in life.... the people screw things up and take advantage of situations causing restrictions to come into play.

Do you think the Judges ALL OVER THE US just decided one day.. let's ban weapons in the court house. No! They had to start doing itbecause the PEOPLE started killing the Judges because they did not like the decisions they made.

The people have no one to blame but themselves!!!

Look at airline travel...... One schmuck puts a bomb in his shoe and now we ALL have to take off our shoes in the screening process. The airline did not think this up... the PEOPLE caused it to happen. Actually.. Just ONE person.

Get used to itas people do stupid stuff all the time now.

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The crux ofLEO 229'sargument is that if someone screws up we can abridge rights in order to make things safer.

There are two problems with that train of thought:

1. There is no exception clause in the U.S. second amendment or the Virginia Constitution.When you make judgements about whether to violate inalienable rights for public safety, thelogic of the judgement depends on what you include and exclude in that judgment. Individuals cannot magically make firearms disappear when they arrive at the disarmament checkpoint. They are disarmed from the time they leave their house or from the time they leave their car (if they choose to risk having their car broken into and their firearms stolen.)

2. The prohibition does not make the otherwise armedindividual safer. The prohibition assumes that the average safety is improvedin a gun free zone. The safety and security of the disarmed individual goes down. We will al be safer if you, law abiding citizen, do not have a gun.

Most people in a courthouse are good citizens not even accused of a misdemeanor. Civil court proceedings, criminal court witnesses, juries and the court employees as well as those involved with activities such as title searchare disarmed without cause.

I cannot get used to the continuous chipping away of my rights because somebody else did something wrong. Punish the wrongdoers. When you removeour rights you punish us all.

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LEO 229 wrote:

AbNo wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Tough!   The law is written and will be enforce.  If you do not like it....  have it repealed. Till them... stop whining about cops enforcing the code.

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How many speeding tickets have you written yourself, 229?

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I have written many myself. Matter of fact.. I have written them all by myself and gave them to the driver. :lol:

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Oh, ha ha.

Smartypants. :lol:

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I cannot get used to the continuous chipping away of my rights because somebody else did something wrong. Punish the wrongdoers. When you removeour rights you punish us all.

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And you shouldn't get used to it. Problems like this exist because - as LEO pointed out - 1 or a few people screwed up. Then, several people noticed and they complained. Their complaining blew the incident out of proportion. The out of proportion complaint was lobbied and nobody like us waspresent to oppose it so the law passed. Most important of all, they suffered no consequences like getting voted out of office and replaced.

legislative bodies are less inclined to behave stupidly when they look out the windows to find a large body of people wielding pitchforks and torches.

By the book enforcement of laws like this might actually serve the greater good some day. Every person getting a citation like this - which practically everyone here feels is out and out ridiculous - everyone tells a few people and the more people hit by it, the more anger and resentment develop in opposition to it. Eventually the 'by the book' approach becomes a self correcting problem.

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The 'self-correcting' mechanism may be quite weighty, like the Nuremburg trials where "following orders" was presented as 'defense'.

Anecdote; integrated search engine hits on "just following orders" had mostly contemporary TV show titles in the most relevant hits.

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LEO 229 wrote:

Protection is provided by the Sheriff's officewhile you are in the secure area.

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Except when it is not.

What if a mother is shot and killed in front of her 6 yer-old daughter -- while inside a county courthouse?

Can her daughter hold the county liable for failing to protect her mother? Should the county be liable?

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LEO 229 wrote:

Get used to itas people do stupid stuff all the time now.

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It always amazes me how much focus is placed on the *now* in these issues. People have always done bad things. People will always do bad things. It's just a question of how you keep the bad things at bay in the present. Some things work, some things don't.

My mind is still stuck on the recent post where the mother came to have an OCer talk to her son. The son was clearly indoctrinated into the "if you see anything out of the ordinary then call the cops." which implicitly carries the "if you see anything wrong then do nothing about it. Let someone else deal with the issue." That's a mindset which I definitely have problems with, and is perhaps one of the bigger issues we face.

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possumboy wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Tough! The law is written and will be enforce. If you do not like it.... have it repealed. Till them... stop whining about cops enforcing the code.

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Please apply this thinking to LEOs also, and stop making up reasons for the them to violate the laws in demanding ID and getting angry and upset just because someone makes their job a little more difficult. Stop whining when a citizens knows and exercises their rights.

Thanks for this post, I will be quoting it when you make excuses for LEOs breaking the laws in the future.

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That argument only works against the lowly masses...it doesn't apply to da' bruddahood.

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LEO 229 wrote:

ama-gi wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

All those situations you provided dealt with a deputy being disarmed. If this can happen to a deputy... imagine all the citizens that can be disarmed in the court house too.

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Another way to look at it is, if those deputies are that inept, why am I forced to rely on them for my safety?

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Because life sucks and then you die.

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:lol:

That's about the best argument that can be made on your side,I think. Well done.

This snap-reaction to obey orders, even when they make no sense, as shown above, is so interesting to me...even when the best reason one can give is "because life sucks."

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stryth wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Get used to itas people do stupid stuff all the time now.

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It always amazes me how much focus is placed on the *now* in these issues. People have always done bad things. People will always do bad things. It's just a question of how you keep the bad things at bay in the present. Some things work, some things don't.

My mind is still stuck on the recent post where the mother came to have an OCer talk to her son. The son was clearly indoctrinated into the "if you see anything out of the ordinary then call the cops." which implicitly carries the "if you see anything wrong then do nothing about it. Let someone else deal with the issue." That's a mindset which I definitely have problems with, and is perhaps one of the bigger issues we face.

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So true, stryth. The inherent problem in that philosophy is thata people can't remain free unless they remain self-reliant. There are so many layers to the onion

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Thundar wrote:

....

Most people in a courthouse are good citizens not even accused of a misdemeanor. Civil court proceedings, criminal court witnesses, juries and the court employees as well as those involved with activities such as title searchare disarmed without cause.

I cannot get used to the continuous chipping away of my rights because somebody else did something wrong. Punish the wrongdoers. When you removeour rights you punish us all.

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Are you freaking kidding me!!!!

MOST of the people walking into court EVERY morning are there because they have been charged with a crime! The court has many court rooms packed with Criminal and traffic violations!! These are NOT the good and innocent people you say they are.

You need to get with the times. Your are absolutely clueless!


Sorry... your rights are being eroded because of the "innocent" people that are making poor decisions. You cannot blame the police for that.

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ama-gi wrote:

possumboy wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Tough! The law is written and will be enforce. If you do not like it.... have it repealed. Till them... stop whining about cops enforcing the code.

Click to expand...

Please apply this thinking to LEOs also, and stop making up reasons for the them to violate the laws in demanding ID and getting angry and upset just because someone makes their job a little more difficult. Stop whining when a citizens knows and exercises their rights.

Thanks for this post, I will be quoting it when you make excuses for LEOs breaking the laws in the future.

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That argument only works against the lowly masses...it doesn't apply to da' bruddahood.

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Some jobs have benefits. Best Buy employees get to buy stuff at a discount. We do not get to enjoy that benefit now do we.

Plus.... some citizens DO get warnings... Should that be a problem? If So I will stop writing warnings and give EVERYONE real tickets. :lol:

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LEO 229 wrote:

ama-gi wrote:

possumboy wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Tough! The law is written and will be enforce. If you do not like it.... have it repealed. Till them... stop whining about cops enforcing the code.

Click to expand...

Please apply this thinking to LEOs also, and stop making up reasons for the them to violate the laws in demanding ID and getting angry and upset just because someone makes their job a little more difficult. Stop whining when a citizens knows and exercises their rights.

Thanks for this post, I will be quoting it when you make excuses for LEOs breaking the laws in the future.

Click to expand...

That argument only works against the lowly masses...it doesn't apply to da' bruddahood.

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Some jobs have benefits. Best Buy employees get to buy stuff at a discount. We do not get to enjoy that benefit now do we.

Plus.... some citizens DO get warnings... Should that be a problem? If So I will stop writing warnings and give EVERYONE real tickets. :lol:

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Bagelsto donuts call here. Best Buy in not a public service.
OH, and just a reminder: LEO 229 said "Tough! The law is written and will be enforce. If you do not like it.... have it repealed. Till them... stop whining about cops enforcing the code." (Funny that it is quoted above also).

Sounds like there is a choice being made here - or is there a benefit law somewhere? If so, please cite. So, stop "whining" because a citizen wants equal treatment.

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possumboy wrote:

Bagelsto donuts call here. Best Buy in not a public service.
OH, and just a reminder: LEO 229 said "Tough! The law is written and will be enforce. If you do not like it.... have it repealed. Till them... stop whining about cops enforcing the code." (Funny that it is quoted above also).

Sounds like there is a choice being made here - or is there a benefit law somewhere? If so, please cite. So, stop "whining" because a citizen wants equal treatment.

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Oh please.. your justjealous!! :lol:

You will get over it some day...

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LEO 229 wrote:

Thundar wrote:

....

Most people in a courthouse are good citizens not even accused of a misdemeanor. Civil court proceedings, criminal court witnesses, juries and the court employees as well as those involved with activities such as title searchare disarmed without cause.

I cannot get used to the continuous chipping away of my rights because somebody else did something wrong. Punish the wrongdoers. When you removeour rights you punish us all.

Click to expand...

Are you freaking kidding me!!!!

MOST of the people walking into court EVERY morning are there because they have been charged with a crime! The court has many court rooms packed with Criminal and traffic violations!! These are NOT the good and innocent people you say they are.

You need to get with the times. Your are absolutely clueless!


Sorry... your rights are being eroded because of the "innocent" people that are making poor decisions. You cannot blame the police for that.

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LEO,

I am not freaking kidding you. You go to the criminal court, I go to the civil court andalso do research on real estate records. The people engaged in these activities are good and innocent people.

It is not just the criminal court that is disarmed, it is all civilproceedings and associated functions that are disarmed.

I understand your perspective. As a LEO you do not spend much time researching 100 year old titles. You do understand that all of this activity also happens within the courthouse, and therefore the good citizens involved are also disarmed? I listed a lot of people that are not even accused of a crime that are disarmed.

When I helped my son register the trade name of his business we both had to disarm because we had to go into the courthouse.

I certainly do not blame the police, orany executive agency,for taking away 2A rights in court buildings. That blame lies with the legislative branch.

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Thundar wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Thundar wrote:

....

Most people in a courthouse are good citizens not even accused of a misdemeanor. Civil court proceedings, criminal court witnesses, juries and the court employees as well as those involved with activities such as title searchare disarmed without cause.

I cannot get used to the continuous chipping away of my rights because somebody else did something wrong. Punish the wrongdoers. When you removeour rights you punish us all.

Click to expand...

Are you freaking kidding me!!!!

MOST of the people walking into court EVERY morning are there because they have been charged with a crime! The court has many court rooms packed with Criminal and traffic violations!! These are NOT the good and innocent people you say they are.

You need to get with the times. Your are absolutely clueless!


Sorry... your rights are being eroded because of the "innocent" people that are making poor decisions. You cannot blame the police for that.

Click to expand...

LEO,

I am not freaking kidding you. You go to the criminal court, I go to the civil court andalso do research on real estate records. The people engaged in these activities are good and innocent people.

It is not just the criminal court that is disarmed, it is all civilproceedings and associated functions that are disarmed.

I understand your perspective. As a LEO you do not spend much time researching 100 year old titles. You do understand that all of this activity also happens within the courthouse, and therefore the good citizens involved are also disarmed? I listed a lot of people that are not even accused of a crime that are disarmed.

When I helped my son register the trade name of his business we both had to disarm because we had to go into the courthouse.

I certainly do not blame the police, orany executive agency,for taking away 2A rights in court buildings. That blame lies with the legislative branch.

Click to expand...

You may have a few innocent people popping in to do stuff and even get married.

But from 8 AM thru4 PM that court house is packed with criminals waiting to give their plea to the judge.

You have Traffic, Criminal, and Circuit Court happening. You may not see them while your nose is doing your research since they are all in the courtrooms. There are HUNDREDS of defendants every day.

You cannot count them as innocent....

As I have said before.... it is the innocent people that were allowed to go in armed for many years that have caused laws to be passed. When they started shooting defendants after trial when the verdict was "Not Guilty" andthen started shooting the Judges who say "I find you Guilty!" and it was a family member....

Today, Most laws are not picked from out of the air. They are created due to necessity. In this case.... the need to stop people from killing due to court determinations.

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LEO 229 wrote:

Thundar wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Thundar wrote:

....

Most people in a courthouse are good citizens not even accused of a misdemeanor. Civil court proceedings, criminal court witnesses, juries and the court employees as well as those involved with activities such as title searchare disarmed without cause.

I cannot get used to the continuous chipping away of my rights because somebody else did something wrong. Punish the wrongdoers. When you removeour rights you punish us all.

Click to expand...

Are you freaking kidding me!!!!

MOST of the people walking into court EVERY morning are there because they have been charged with a crime! The court has many court rooms packed with Criminal and traffic violations!! These are NOT the good and innocent people you say they are.

You need to get with the times. Your are absolutely clueless!


Sorry... your rights are being eroded because of the "innocent" people that are making poor decisions. You cannot blame the police for that.

Click to expand...

LEO,

I am not freaking kidding you. You go to the criminal court, I go to the civil court andalso do research on real estate records. The people engaged in these activities are good and innocent people.

It is not just the criminal court that is disarmed, it is all civilproceedings and associated functions that are disarmed.

I understand your perspective. As a LEO you do not spend much time researching 100 year old titles. You do understand that all of this activity also happens within the courthouse, and therefore the good citizens involved are also disarmed? I listed a lot of people that are not even accused of a crime that are disarmed.

When I helped my son register the trade name of his business we both had to disarm because we had to go into the courthouse.

I certainly do not blame the police, orany executive agency,for taking away 2A rights in court buildings. That blame lies with the legislative branch.

Click to expand...

You may have a few innocent people popping in to do stuff and even get married.

But from 8 AM thru4 PM that court house is packed with criminals waiting to give their plea to the judge.

You have Traffic, Criminal, and Circuit Court happening. You may not see them while your nose is doing your research since they are all in the courtrooms. There are HUNDREDS of defendants every day.

You cannot count them as innocent....

As I have said before.... it is the innocent people that were allowed to go in armed for many years that have caused laws to be passed. When they started shooting defendants after trial when the verdict was "Not Guilty" andthen started shooting the Judges who say "I find you Guilty!" and it was a family member....

Today, Most laws are not picked from out of the air. They are created due to necessity. In this case.... the need to stop people from killing due to court determinations.

Click to expand...

The split of those accused of wrongdoing to those with other business in a courthouse is not as skewed as you would think, but I will limit my further discussions to juries.

If a judge is authorized to carry in a courthouse, then what about thejury? It seems that they are compelled to attend, forced to disarm and have a high profile in the court system (possible target). Why disarm the jury?

How could one justify stripping a citizen of her rights becauseshe is performing her civil duty?

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Thundar wrote:

The split of those accused of wrongdoing to those with other business in a courthouse is not as skewed as you would think, but I will limit my further discussions to juries.

If a judge is authorized to carry in a courthouse, then what about thejury? It seems that they are compelled to attend, forced to disarm and have a high profile in the court system (possible target). Why disarm the jury?

How could one justify stripping a citizen of her rights becauseshe is performing her civil duty?

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Just because your on the jury does not mean you are innocentwould not want to kill the sick defendant after seeing all the photos of the victims body. :shock:

Even cops are disarmed in most court rooms. Did you know that? Only the deputy can carry.

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That argument only works against the lowly masses...it doesn't apply to da' bruddahood.

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If you're not getting by with warnings and a handshake, you're not doing it right

I'm not saying there aren't situations where you are going to get written up but there's a science and art to stroking the cop's ego and making them want to cut you a break. You don't have to kiss the cop's ass to do this effectively. Frankly <controversial topic> I think when you're up front about the permit, provide all the handy info and keep them talking like they try to do to you, this makes a warning more likely</controversial topic>

This doesn't bother me so much because as long as the human element is involved there is always the chance you can get a warning. Are more cops getting warnings than citizen not involved in LE? Probably. Nevertheless, I've gotten warnings when I shouldn't have. I've gotten tickets when I should've gotten warnings. I've won in court and lost so there is a system in place. It may cost some money to use it but it's there. Now, if it's more than a speeding or other minor traffic infraction, I have to say it's a little bogus. Particularly if they're involved in a collision. I've witnessed a guy badge his way out of being "at fault". Not pretty.

LEO229:The court has many court rooms packed with Criminal and traffic violations!! These are NOT the good and innocent people you say they are.
...

There are HUNDREDS of defendants every day.

You cannot count them as innocent....

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Despite Mr. Winky, I failto see any humor in these statements LEO. First, if they are unconvicted, they are supposed to be presumed by us to be innocent. Second, let's not forget those who are victims of a collision caused by someone else there to testify against the defendant(s).

I think that these comments are a reflection of why you see people like OP who clearly meant no harm and clearly had no malicious intent charged with such a serious offense.

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Mr. Y wrote:

Despite Mr. Winky, I failto see any humor in these statements LEO. First, if they are unconvicted, they are supposed to be presumed by us to be innocent. Second, let's not forget those who are victims of a collision caused by someone else there to testify against the defendant(s).

I think that these comments are a reflection of why you see people like OP who clearly meant no harm and clearly had no malicious intent charged with such a serious offense.

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Come on... You need to lighten up.

I am pointing out the possibilities. I never said the jury was all evil and WOULD do it. But people do rush to judgement and are supposed to hear all the evidence first. Some people... even on this board.... refuse to see the truth.

As in life.... anything is possible and this is why not even the jury is exempt.

And I will be honest with you. I think EVERYONE is a possible criminal and out to hurt me. I have seen the worst of the worst! I trust no one!

When people walk behind me... I turn to be sure they are still moving away and not going to hit me in the back of the head. When I stand in line.. I cover my gun so the guy behind me does not try to take it.

Should I trust everyone? Sure... Can I? NO! :lol:

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I will be honest with you. I think EVERYONE is a possible criminal and out to hurt me. I have seen the worst of the worst! I trust no one!

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Quoted without comment.

When people walk behind me... I turn to be sure they are still moving away and not going to hit me in the back of the head.

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There's an easier way. Turn around and say "Pull my finger"...

When I stand in line.. I cover my gun so the guy behind me does not try to take it.

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once again, you're trying too hard. All you need to do is to hold a very loud conversation with yourself - think Gollum from LOtR. It may lend visual assistance ifyou stroke the gun while referring to it as "our PRECIOUSSSS".

When I do this I don't have to cover my gun because nobody will stand in line with me. This works great at Home Depot, Lowes & Walmart at busy times. I've seen people who were next in line get out of line and move to a line 15 yards long to get away.

Should I trust everyone? Sure... Can I? NO! :lol:

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You trust everyone in cyberspace enought to convey your feelings on courthouse occupiers.