Arrested in Courthouse

AbNo · Nov 5, 2007

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LEO 229 wrote:

§ 18.2-283.1. Carrying weapon into courthouse.

It shall be unlawful for any person to possess in or transport into any courthouse in this Commonwealth any (i) gun or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile or projectile of any kind, (ii) frame, receiver, muffler, silencer, missile, projectile or ammunition designed for use with a dangerous weapon and (iii) any other dangerous weapon, including explosives, stun weapons as defined in § 18.2-308.1....

Wait, he had the ammo, but not the gun. From the looks of things, he needs to have all three.

Or maybe I'm misreading this because I'm tired.

Edit: Also, why are car parts included in that list?

VCDL President · Nov 5, 2007

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AbNo wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

§ 18.2-283.1. Carrying weapon into courthouse.

It shall be unlawful for any person to possess in or transport into any courthouse in this Commonwealth any (i) gun or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile or projectile of any kind, (ii) frame, receiver, muffler, silencer, missile, projectile or ammunition designed for use with a dangerous weapon and (iii) any other dangerous weapon, including explosives, stun weapons as defined in § 18.2-308.1....

Click to expand...

Wait, he had the ammo, but not the gun. From the looks of things, he needs to have all three.

Or maybe I'm misreading this because I'm tired.

Edit: Also, why are car parts included in that list?

I read the ammo as being an offense all by itself. Nobody said gun laws had to make any sense.

longwatch · Nov 5, 2007

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No each segment is a different crime, so just having ammo gets thor hung up. Having a suppressor(muffler) would too.

I hate seeing someone with no intent to do harm go down but the law is the law, however stupid. Hopefully a judge will be sympathetic and go easy. At least Thor didn't lose a gun and can still get a permit, vote, etc.

mobeewan · Nov 5, 2007

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AbNo wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

§ 18.2-283.1. Carrying weapon into courthouse.

It shall be unlawful for any person to possess in or transport into any courthouse in this Commonwealth any (i) gun or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile or projectile of any kind, (ii) frame, receiver, muffler, silencer, missile, projectile or ammunition designed for use with a dangerous weapon and (iii) any other dangerous weapon, including explosives, stun weapons as defined in § 18.2-308.1....

Click to expand...

Wait, he had the ammo, but not the gun. From the looks of things, he needs to have all three.

Or maybe I'm misreading this because I'm tired.

Edit: Also, why are car parts included in that list?

I agree, but lets look at the entire code section:

It shall be unlawful for any person to possess in or transport into any courthouse in this Commonwealth any (i) gun or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile or projectile of any kind, (ii) frame, receiver, muffler, silencer, missile, projectile or ammunition designed for use with a dangerous weapon and (iii) any other dangerous weapon, including explosives, stun weapons as defined in § 18.2-308.1, and those weapons specified in subsection A of § 18.2-308. Any such weapon shall be subject to seizure by a law-enforcement officer. A violation of this section is punishable as a Class 1 misdemeanor.

The word "And" is between categories. Looks like maybe a legal snafu in the code. If we stick to strict adherence of the law it says "and" not "or". Sooooo, wouldn't you have to have one item from each category???? Lets say (i) a gun, (ii) ammunition and (iii) a stun weapon and those weapons specified in subsection A of § 18.2-308 (maybe a dirk).

Then again (i) an arrow, (ii) a silencer and (iii) explosives and a (maybe a machete)????

AbNo · Nov 5, 2007

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That's what I was saying, Mobee.

LEO 229 · Nov 5, 2007

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AbNo wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

§ 18.2-283.1. Carrying weapon into courthouse.

It shall be unlawful for any person to possess in or transport into any courthouse in this Commonwealth any (i) gun or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile or projectile of any kind, (ii) frame, receiver, muffler, silencer, missile, projectile or ammunition designed for use with a dangerous weapon and (iii) any other dangerous weapon, including explosives, stun weapons as defined in § 18.2-308.1....

Click to expand...

Wait, he had the ammo, but not the gun. From the looks of things, he needs to have all three.

Or maybe I'm misreading this because I'm tired.

Edit: Also, why are car parts included in that list?

The "and" is not a requirement for sections i and ii to be included in some way.

The three sections just break it down by category. You only need to do something in any of the three groups.

Doug Huffman · Nov 6, 2007

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No wonder some ostensibly pro-gun LEOs have a problem with the Second Amendment and its commas and with RKABA. Which part of speech is "shall not be infringed"?

Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed, with wits, guns and/or the truth. LAB/NRA/GOP KMA$$

HankT · Nov 6, 2007

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thorsmitersaw wrote:

EDIT: the two policemen who handled me were extremely unprofesional and incourteous (as my experience always seems to go) as well as the dumbass redneck magistrate who basicall told me I am gonna get shot if I carry opnely in a car if I get pulled over (to which I responded that the officer would be in gross violation of the law, to which they all responded with laughs and arrogant posturing). And thier comments while I was subjected to a strip search (but dont worry, I am never one to hold back my opnion so I did let a few choice counterpunches out) made it the most humiliating event in my entire life.

Why did the subject of open carry even come up?

What were some of the counterpunches? Why didn't you just remain as silent as possible and just get through the ordeal?

possumboy · Nov 6, 2007

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LEO 229 wrote:

thorsmitersaw wrote:

I drove to the county clerks office today in an attempt to obtain my concealed permit. I had my gun in my car. I walked around trying to find the damn place. Walked in. Realized I had a magazine in my left coat pocket that was lodaed but not before Isstarted empting my pockets. At this point I notified the Securitas security guard. i figured it was best to go with honesty instead of trying to gather up my shit and walk back out. I did notice the sign outfront that said no weapons but apparntely ammunition is included within this law, but again I did not know/remember I had the magazine on me. The securitas employee went to retrieve a county officer. Make a long story short: I was arrested on counts of havng a concealed weapon in a courthouse. Class I misdemeaner. Court trial december 11th.

I need a good lawyer for the Fairfax County area. Please give me some numbers. thanks.

Other questions:
How does this affect me applying for a concealed now?
How does his affect me carrying openly?
Does this affect either?
Does this disqualify me from owning a firearm in some way?

Darrin

Click to expand...

Damn!! Honest mistake on your part. You really should have exited as soon as you discovered you had the magazine.

§ 18.2-283.1. Carrying weapon into courthouse.

It shall be unlawful for any person to possess in or transport into any courthouse in this Commonwealth any (i) gun or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile or projectile of any kind, (ii) frame, receiver, muffler, silencer, missile, projectile or ammunition designed for use with a dangerous weapon and (iii) any other dangerous weapon, including explosives, stun weapons as defined in § 18.2-308.1, and those weapons specified in subsection A of § 18.2-308. Any such weapon shall be subject to seizure by a law-enforcement officer. A violation of this section is punishable as a Class 1 misdemeanor.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to any police officer, sheriff, law-enforcement agent or official, conservation police officer, conservator of the peace, magistrate, court officer, or judge while in the conduct of such person's official duties.

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

.. Snipped ...

7. An individual who has been convicted of two or more misdemeanors within the five-year period immediately preceding the application, if one of the misdemeanors was a Class 1 misdemeanor, but the judge shall have the discretion to deny a permit for two or more misdemeanors that are not Class 1. Traffic infractions and misdemeanors set forth in Title 46.2 shall not be considered for purposes of this disqualification.

:question:How does this affect me applying for a concealed now?

Not a problem.... if this is your first and only Class 1 Misdemeanor

:question:How does his affect me carrying openly?

Not at all. You can always carry openly

:questionoes this affect either?

Not really

:questionoes this disqualify me from owning a firearm in some way?

No. Only if it was a felony.

I agree with LEO 229 on your answers? Also, where you really detained for a Class 1 Misdemeanor? You should have been issued a summons and sent back to your car to deposit the mags.

You should have only been arrested and searched if you refused to stop what you were doing illegally - you didn't say you were going to bring them in anyway did you?

What were you charged with (what is written on your summons)?

Marco · Nov 6, 2007

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Sorry to hear about your situation.
I had a friend deportedafter he was caughtcarrying a (1) 45acp round into a INS office in 2002, he was there because his Visa expired.

Always check yourself before going into prohibited places.

Edit:
I wish you had just walked out when youdiscovered you had the magazine.

Thors_Mitersaw · Nov 6, 2007

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HankT wrote:

thorsmitersaw wrote:

EDIT: the two policemen who handled me were extremely unprofesional and incourteous (as my experience always seems to go) as well as the dumbass redneck magistrate who basicall told me I am gonna get shot if I carry opnely in a car if I get pulled over (to which I responded that the officer would be in gross violation of the law, to which they all responded with laughs and arrogant posturing). And thier comments while I was subjected to a strip search (but dont worry, I am never one to hold back my opnion so I did let a few choice counterpunches out) made it the most humiliating event in my entire life.

Click to expand...

Why did the subject of open carry even come up?

What were some of the counterpunches? Why didn't you just remain as silent as possible and just get through the ordeal?

The subject of open carry came up when the black officer asked why I had a gun in my car. Of course his opinion is that 'im trained your not so you no carry gun... ug'. He was askin if anyone was threatening me and I asked if anyone was threatening him and he said no... I said "well there ya' go, I carry the same reason you do. not because I am actively threatened". I think that might have been a little much for him to wrap his dinosaur sized brain around though.

Because I am incapable of keeping my mouth shut when arrogant blue (in this case brown) assholes are puffing thier chests, disrespecting me, and attempting to publically humiliate me. I really wish I had the names of these two assholes, not that I think I could get anything done about thier completely rude and humiliatiing behavior, because once again... they work for the government.

Oh did I mention they had a problem with me asking questions?
He repeatedly told me that THEY are the ones who ask the questions and that I am asking too many questions. Of course I do not cave to childish bullyin gfrom the likes of them and told them and I fuckin qoute: "Ill ask all the FUCKIN questions I want" and CONTINUED to question thier proceedings when i was unsure what was going on... thought they rarely answred me except in the presence of a superior (I assume he was a superior because he had more little pseudo military markings on his sleeve).

I do not spare my opinion for a pretty face or a big fist.

Thors_Mitersaw · Nov 6, 2007

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Agent19 wrote:

Sorry to hear about your situation.
I had a friend deportedafter he was caughtcarrying a (1) 45acp round into a INS office in 2002, he was there because his Visa expired.

Always check yourself before going into prohibited places.

Edit:
I wish you had just walked out when youdiscovered you had the magazine.

Well again I dont really feel that was a option. I was dumping my pockets out when I discovered it. I think it would have looked very suspicious had I wanted to get my stuff and leave. Honestly I didnt think it would be a big fuckin deal.

HankT · Nov 6, 2007

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thorsmitersaw wrote:

HankT wrote:

thorsmitersaw wrote:

EDIT: the two policemen who handled me were extremely unprofesional and incourteous (as my experience always seems to go) as well as the dumbass redneck magistrate who basicall told me I am gonna get shot if I carry opnely in a car if I get pulled over (to which I responded that the officer would be in gross violation of the law, to which they all responded with laughs and arrogant posturing). And thier comments while I was subjected to a strip search (but dont worry, I am never one to hold back my opnion so I did let a few choice counterpunches out) made it the most humiliating event in my entire life.

Click to expand...

Why did the subject of open carry even come up?

What were some of the counterpunches? Why didn't you just remain as silent as possible and just get through the ordeal?

Click to expand...

...
Because I am incapable of keeping my mouth shut when arrogant blue (in this case brown) assholes are puffing thier chests, disrespecting me, and attempting to publically humiliate me. I really wish I had the names of these two assholes, not that I think I could get anything done about thier completely rude and humiliatiing behavior, because once again... they work for the government.

Res ipsa loquitur.

Dude, you gotta lawyer up quick. And please do listen and comply with his/her first instruction to you, which will be "I'll do the talking and you be quiet. Say nothing until I tell you to do so."

thorsmitersaw wrote:

I do not spare my opinion for a pretty face or a big fist.

We are your debt, sir. You have shared with us your story and we've gotten two lessons, not just one.

Marco · Nov 6, 2007

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thorsmitersaw wrote:

Agent19 wrote:

I wish you had just walked out when youdiscovered you had the magazine.

Click to expand...

I think it would have looked very suspicious had I wanted to get my stuff and leave.

I did almost the same thing @ the Loudon County courthouse (parking ticket)except I had a 5" blade knife and a Surefire E2D, both prohibited according to the sign@ the entrance.

:idea:Oh, I forgot something I'll be right back.

Not criticizing

thanks for sharing
hope it turns out okay

Edit:
my comments as I retreived my stuff "Oh SH**:exclaim: I forgot something." and I walked back to my car.

Mike · Nov 6, 2007

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What is interesting is that ammo is NOT banned by the K-12 school gun ban at 18.2-308.1 - so you can carry an empty holster and loaded mags to the PTA meeting, but under the facts above, can't carry a single loose round at the door of a courthouse.

Mike · Nov 6, 2007

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Were you actually "arrested" or issued a summons and released from the scene?

It is generally unlawful for policein Vigriia to custodially arrest for misdemeanors. Further, if the loose round you were carrying was found during a search incident to the unlawful custodial arrest, then that evidecne must be suppressed, so says the VA Supreme Court in Moore v. Commonwealth.

Make sure your attonmrey takes note of the "arrest" facts and circumstances and effect of Moore upon the loose round.

xd.40 · Nov 6, 2007

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I almost did something similar when I went to the PWC Courthouse in Manassas for my CC permit. I was carrying a Spyderco knife. When I got to the door, I turned back like I forgot something so I wouldn't alarm the guys at the door...

molonlabetn · Nov 6, 2007

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thorsmitersaw wrote:

...snip...i figured it was best to go with honesty instead of trying to gather up my shit and walk back out...snip...

A hard lesson. Self-incrimination sucks in hindsight when one realizes that the courtesy you intended by being honest was too much to hope for in-kind from the officers you were dealing with.

Never admit to doing something wrong. It was a simple mistake, but, to the officers it was simply an opportunity to exert their authority... and truthfully, they were just doing their job (with an attitude, apparently). The source of the problem is the stupid law, the attitude of the officers exacerbated it.

HankT · Nov 6, 2007

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Agent19 wrote:

thorsmitersaw wrote:

I think it would have looked very suspicious had I wanted to get my stuff and leave.

Click to expand...

I did almost the same thing @ the Loudon County courthouse (parking ticket)except I had a 5" blade knife and a Surefire E2D, both prohibited ...

:idea:Oh, I forgot something I'll be right back.

xd.40 wrote:

...PWC Courthouse in Manassas for my CC permit. I was carrying a Spyderco knife. When I got to the door, I turned back like I forgot something so I wouldn't alarm the guys at the door...

Given that the mistake hasalready been made (foolishly arriving at a security checkpoint with contraband that will get you arrested), the "Oh, I forgot something--gotta go!" gambit is the one to do--no matter how late in the entry process. That's what I'm learning from this thread.

I gotta think, too, that the entry guards have seen that situation a LOT. They're not necessarily dummies. It's unlikely they're gonna tackle you while you're exiting.

Yet another important concept this case raises is that carrying a gun is not only a hardware problem (guns, magazines, ammo), it's a software problem (procedures, decision rules, plans) and a processing problem (assimilation of info and adapting to events).

This is a good thread. The OP helps educate and remind...it's complicated to carry a gun.

Gotta use your head out there. It's not like they have surprise checkpoints...

Thors_Mitersaw · Nov 6, 2007

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Mike wrote:

Were you actually "arrested" or issued a summons and released from the scene?

It is generally unlawful for policein Vigriia to custodially arrest for misdemeanors. Further, if the loose round you were carrying was found during a search incident to the unlawful custodial arrest, then that evidecne must be suppressed, so says the VA Supreme Court in Moore v. Commonwealth.

Make sure your attonmrey takes note of the "arrest" facts and circumstances and effect of Moore upon the loose round.

I was in a fishtank for 7 hours and was told I was arrested. Served a summons to court. $1000 bail

Arrested in Courthouse

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