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Thread: new here with a few ?s

  1. #1
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    hi all i m new to the board figure i would start with a post. i just bought a h & k p30 and have been ocing for a couple of weeks now. i still worry when i am in my car though. my dad is on the board here(found out tonight) and has told me to lay the gun on the seat next to me when ever i get into the car. i fear one what if when i take a turn the guns slides to the side and then in between the door and the seat. next what do i do when i have someone riding shotgun? i have made sure that the gun can been seen from the passenger at all times. i also fear that if i lay it on the seat what happens when i get out of my car and reholster the gun, someone might claim that i was brandishing the gun.

    sorry ahead of time for any sp errors

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    Welcome! Where are you(city?) I encourage you to look into the VCDL(virginia citizens defense league,http://www.vcdl.org/), as well as coming out to some OCDO (common for opencarry (dot)org) meets.

    I also encourage you,as I do for anybody new,to study up on ALL the laws you can,and arm yourself,...with knowledge

    About your questions, I'm not sure specifically. I keep mine in my holster,just make sure my weapon is not covered. The law states "common observation" or "hidden from common observation".

    Note: I am not a lawyer,just stating my knowlegde/opinion on the subject.

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    I lived in Fredericksburg for 15 months and carried openly from time to time. I always kept my pistol with me in my truck whilst heading to my job in Newington. I spoke to two officers about that specific issue and was told the following:
    • A gun, holstered on my hip whilst inside my vehicle was considered to be "carried in plane sight" provided it wasn't covered by any clothing. Of course, both of these officers suggested that I should keep my hands clearly visible during a stop and inform the officer as soon as possible that I was carrying.
    • If I did put the weapon on the seat then I should re-holster the weapon before opening the door to my vehicle. That made certain that no one could say I was "brandishing" it and causing a public disturbance.
    I'm not a lawyer, so you'll want to follow Ghettokracker71's excellent advice. I would also suggest calling the local police department and posing the question to them. Police officers that I spoke with in Fredericksburg were more then happy to discuss open carry issues with me.

    Personally, I do not like the idea of leaving my gun laying on the seat. Like you said, turning and braking will cause the weapon to slide off the seat. Most importantly, I do not like to handle the weapon any more then is absolutely necessary when out and about.

    Ultimately my fix was to purchase Bianchi paddle holster that rides very high on my right hip. That way it's not covered up by the seat belt, so an officer can clearly see it when he approaches from the passenger side of my vehicle.

    Cheers.

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    BenjaminHare wrote:
    I lived in Fredericksburg for 15 months and carried openly from time to time. I always kept my pistol with me in my truck whilst heading to my job in Newington. I spoke to two officers about that specific issue and was told the following:
    • A gun, holstered on my hip whilst inside my vehicle was considered to be "carried in plane sight" provided it wasn't covered by any clothing. Of course, both of these officers suggested that I should keep my hands clearly visible during a stop and inform the officer as soon as possible that I was carrying.
    • If I did put the weapon on the seat then I should re-holster the weapon before opening the door to my vehicle. That made certain that no one could say I was "brandishing" it and causing a public disturbance.
    I'm not a lawyer, so you'll want to follow Ghettokracker71's excellent advice. I would also suggest calling the local police department and posing the question to them. Police officers that I spoke with in Fredericksburg were more then happy to discuss open carry issues with me.

    Personally, I do not like the idea of leaving my gun laying on the seat. Like you said, turning and braking will cause the weapon to slide off the seat. Most importantly, I do not like to handle the weapon any more then is absolutely necessary when out and about.

    Ultimately my fix was to purchase Bianchi paddle holster that rides very high on my right hip. That way it's not covered up by the seat belt, so an officer can clearly see it when he approaches from the passenger side of my vehicle.

    Cheers.
    See highlight in quoted section. You see, the police told you what they WANT, not what the law is. There is no requirement in VA to inform LE you are carrying.

    If you have a CHP, you have no worries. Concealed in a vehicle in VA is fine if you have a permit.

    You can also do a search on this board. DeadCenter posted some photos of solutions he devised some time ago.

    I carry on my right hip. Sometimes I just slide the holster forward a little bit, buckling the seat belt behind the weapon. It's quite visible there.

    Welcome to OCDO.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    first off i would like to say thanks to all.i have been looking through a lot of the posts here and have seen good responses, even got my mom to join up a few hours ago. i m sorry that i did not state it earlier, but i live in va beach. i have been reading the law as much as i can at the site http://leg1.state.va.us i even carry around the law that states i m legal to carry,(i m only 19), and i also carry around a copy of the bill of sale, as proof that i legally own the gun. i also move the gun forward on my hip to make sure that it is clearly seen by any one riding shotgun. as for talking to the cops, i have been down to the courthouses and have talked to a cop there who said that it was not legal to open carry, even when i showed him the law printed out he would still say that i would be breaking the law,(because of my age, saying that if i had to be 21 to buy the gun how would i have one to carry). some of the other cops i have talked to had different views. i wonder what
    leo 229 would say to this

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    first off i would like to say thanks to all.i have been looking through a lot of the posts here and have seen good responses, even got my mom to join up a few hours ago.:celebrate
    i m sorry that i did not state it earlier, but i live in va beach. i have been reading the law as much as i can at the site http://leg1.state.va.us i even carry around the law that states i m legal to carry,(i m only 19,), and i also carry around a copy of the bill of sale, as proof that i legally own the gun.
    i move the gun forward on my hip, every time i get into the car making sure that it is clearly seen by any one riding shotgun.

    as for talking to the cops, i have been down to the courthouses and have talked to a cop there who said that it was not legal to open carry, even when i showed him the law printed out he would still say that i would be breaking the law,(because of my age, saying that if i had to be 21 to buy the gun how would i have one to carry). some of the other cops i have talked to had different views. i wonder what leo 229 would say to this

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    DO NOT ask cops about gun laws most do not know gun laws and will give their opinion, not law.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    DO NOT ask cops about gun laws most do not know gun laws and will give their opinion, not law.
    I agree. I have a 1 size fits all, cheap holster with a strap on it around the headrest on the passenger seat. That keeps it from sliding around and it's still very accessable.


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    VAopencarry wrote:
    DO NOT ask cops about gun laws most do not know gun laws and will give their opinion, not law.
    Agreed. If you take the time to read your state's laws for yourself, you will be amazed how much good it does for you. I did exactly that, and I remembered the laws easier, and I could rely on my own memory of what I personally read, not what someone else told me.

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    Perhaps I've gotten lucky in speaking with officers who are more knowledgeable about local gun laws. I disagree with those who say you should never speak to a local law officer about open carry issues. If you open carry you are going to deal with them eventually. Why not begin the dialog yourself and do your own research?

    Starting at the local PD and working your way through the state and local laws is the best way to go. I've been told a number of times by a wide range of people not to speak to police officers about these issues. I disagree.

    There are a lot of good people on this board and likewise a wide range of opinions. We all agree that arming yourself with knowledge is the best approach.

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    from what i have read online here and at the one legal site i stated earlier that as long as i keep it in view to anyone riding shotgun i should be fine like i said all the cops that i have talked to have different views and i can never get the same answer from them. thank you all again for the replys.

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    mrguppy wrote:
    first off i would like to say thanks to all.i have been looking through a lot of the posts here and have seen good responses, even got my mom to join up a few hours ago. i m sorry that i did not state it earlier, but i live in va beach. i have been reading the law as much as i can at the site http://leg1.state.va.us i even carry around the law that states i m legal to carry,(i m only 19), and i also carry around a copy of the bill of sale, as proof that i legally own the gun. i also move the gun forward on my hip to make sure that it is clearly seen by any one riding shotgun. as for talking to the cops, i have been down to the courthouses and have talked to a cop there who said that it was not legal to open carry, even when i showed him the law printed out he would still say that i would be breaking the law,(because of my age, saying that if i had to be 21 to buy the gun how would i have one to carry). some of the other cops i have talked to had different views. i wonder what
    leo 229 would say to this
    This is a common misconception. Many PEOPLE including cops think you must be 21 to own a handgun. The Virginia state code makes reference to under 18 not being allowed.

    ยง centerfire rifle or pistol which expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine which will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (ii) shotgun with a magazine which will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered. A violation of this section shall be a Class 1 misdemeanor.



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    BenjaminHare wrote:
    Perhaps I've gotten lucky in speaking with officers who are more knowledgeable about local gun laws. I disagree with those who say you should never speak to a local law officer about open carry issues. If you open carry you are going to deal with them eventually. Why not begin the dialog yourself and do your own research?

    Starting at the local PD and working your way through the state and local laws is the best way to go. I've been told a number of times by a wide range of people not to speak to police officers about these issues. I disagree.

    There are a lot of good people on this board and likewise a wide range of opinions. We all agree that arming yourself with knowledge is the best approach.
    Because the explanation of, "But Mr. Policeman said it was OK to conceal carry in a restaurant serving alcohol in Virginia." will do you no good what so ever in front of a judge, e.g., the Manassas police and the Tony's 7 incident. The police are not lawyers and more often than not have a distorted view (or worse) of what they think is allowed.

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    VAopencarry wrote:
    DO NOT ask cops about gun laws most do not know gun laws and will give their opinion, not law.
    Please do not single out cops... There are plenty of citizens that do not a damn thing either.

    Cops do have access to code books and could look it up for you ortell you a code to check out. They can also give your their OPINION on matters that are not covered by any code section.

    Anything a PERSON tells you shouldbe verified by checking the state code for yourself.

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    kaiheitai17 wrote:
    BenjaminHare wrote:
    Perhaps I've gotten lucky in speaking with officers who are more knowledgeable about local gun laws. I disagree with those who say you should never speak to a local law officer about open carry issues. If you open carry you are going to deal with them eventually. Why not begin the dialog yourself and do your own research?

    Starting at the local PD and working your way through the state and local laws is the best way to go. I've been told a number of times by a wide range of people not to speak to police officers about these issues. I disagree.

    There are a lot of good people on this board and likewise a wide range of opinions. We all agree that arming yourself with knowledge is the best approach.
    Because the explanation of, "But Mr. Policeman said it was OK to conceal carry in a restaurant serving alcohol in Virginia." will do you no good what so ever in front of a judge, e.g., the Manassas police and the Tony's 7 incident. The police are not lawyers and more often than not have a distorted view (or worse) of what they think is allowed.
    This is true... But the same goes for people on the board.

    "But MR Officer... Mr X (No relation to Mr Y)said I could OC in the court house!!"

    You must always check things for yourself. PEOPLE can guide you in the right direction to help you find the answer you are looking for.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    VAopencarry wrote:
    DO NOT ask cops about gun laws most do not know gun laws and will give their opinion, not law.
    Please do not single out cops... There are plenty of citizens that do not a damn thing either.

    Cops do have access to code books and could look it up for you ortell you a code to check out. They can also give your their OPINION on matters that are not covered by any code section.

    Anything a PERSON tells you shouldbe verified by checking the state code for yourself.
    I can back LEO229 on this one. LEOs are humans,they are not perfect,and cannot possibly know EVERY law there is pertaining to EVERY thing they deal with. They have to know so many codes,and laws as is. ---ALTHOUGH-- I do believe when a LEO does NOT know the law,they need to check into it before acting. LEOs being human do make mistakes too,UNFORTUNATELY FOR US WHEN A LEO MAKES A MISTAKE,IT COULD COST US ALOT


    Think about it,the cops that have been doing it for a little bit (10,15,20 years) prob know alot of laws,but laws change alot too. The younger guys just had to learn all the stuff in training, tactical training, ethics training, response times, proper driving techniques,driving laws,domestic laws,firearms laws,...etc..etc...probable alot more than I am mentioning (I'm certainly no LEO)

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    Ghettokracker71 wrote:
    I can back LEO229 on this one. LEOs are humans,they are not perfect,and cannot possibly know EVERY law there is pertaining to EVERY thing they deal with. They have to know so many codes,and laws as is. ---ALTHOUGH-- I do believe when a LEO does NOT know the law,they need to check into it before acting. LEOs being human do make mistakes too,UNFORTUNATELY FOR US WHEN A LEO MAKES A MISTAKE,IT COULD COST US ALOT


    Think about it,the cops that have been doing it for a little bit (10,15,20 years) prob know alot of laws,but laws change alot too. The younger guys just had to learn all the stuff in training, tactical training, ethics training, response times, proper driving techniques,driving laws,domestic laws,firearms laws,...etc..etc...probable alot more than I am mentioning (I'm certainly no LEO)
    Absolutely... you learn as you go. As time go by.. you learn and retain more codes.

    There are times when you know a law may have been broken. If your not sure of the criteria..... you must ALWAYS review the code for yourself before making the arrest.

    I do this for codes I do not write that often just to make sure I have it right and nothing has changed.

  18. #18
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    I didn't mean to single out police officers. I just want to point out that there is a tendency to expect the officer will know the right answer, so to just accept. As the OP demonstrated, he got a wrong answer even in the face of the code.

    I should more clearly have said "Don't ask an officer and presume his answer to be correct."
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Tess wrote:
    SNIP

    I should more clearly have said "Don't ask an officer and presume his answer to be correct."
    Unfortunately I tend to agree with this statement with my own twist..

    "dont ask a PERSON and just PRESUME his/her answer is correct" (credintials {sp}, for instance alot of times when somebody answers a law question,they put the number on the law so you can actually pull it up yourself and see its there)

  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    For that matter don't believe what you hear at the gun shop either, it could be golden but you could also be buried by an avalanche of BS too.

  21. #21
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Unfortunately I tend to agree with this statement with my own twist.. "dont ask a PERSON and just PRESUME his/her answer is correct" (credintials {sp}, for instance alot of times when somebody answers a law question,they put the number on the law so you can actually pull it up yourself and see its there)
    That's a much better answer than I gave! Also, never, never depend too much on answers given on internet boards. Use them as reference points. Even double check your lawyer. I catch mine in a mistake once in a while. Makes him mad too.

    OK,OK, you know it all, why do you pay me:shock:

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    VAopencarry wrote:
    DO NOT ask cops about gun laws most do not know gun laws and will give their opinion, not law.
    Please do not single out cops... There are plenty of citizens that do not a damn thing either.
    Which is why I wouldn't recommend going up to random people on the street and asking them about the law, any more than I'd go up to a random cop and do so.

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    thank you all for your opions on this matter from what i have read even though the law does not go into this that much is a person that rides next to you can see your gun then it is legal for open carry.

  24. #24
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    You might want to check out some case law on what is a concealed weapon.
    For example a shotgun on the floorboard in the dark was considered concealed. Can't find a link for that case at the moment but you can get some idea of how the law has been interpreted here:
    http://www.virginia1774.org/Page1.html#ConcealedWeapon

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    FWIW, IANAL, YMMV, ETC CETERA....

    On the dash, or on the passenger's seat. Even if it means someone gets to hold it in their lap.

    Look the code up yourself, and welcome.
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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