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Thread: Does ID have to be produced???

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    I am thinking this person did not have to produce ID but would like to hear more expert opinions than my own. This not a 'scenario', this was a real police investigation. No, not me or anyone I know.:shock:

    A cop is investigating a non-violent crime. Investigating officer know's the BG's name,clues lead him to an address which happens to be a retail store. Cop walks into store, see's an employee and ask, "Are you Joe Smith" BG: yes, Cop: Show me some ID.

    For further discussion, If person in store answer's No, I am not Joe Smith can LEO demand ID?
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    I think the question could be put this way, is it illegal not to produce an ID? With the exception of while driving, I know of no requirement to do so ETA: in Virginia. That said I'm not sure if the police can or cannot legally detain you for sometime.

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    Virginia has no Stop and Identify Laws, however in that case I believe that the cop would have probable cause to detain and search you for an ID.

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    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    longwatch wrote:
    I think the question could be put this way, is it illegal not to produce an ID? With the exception of while driving, I know of no requirement to do so ETA: in Virginia. That said I'm not sure if the police can or cannot legally detain you for sometime.
    When CCing in VA, you must be able to produce your CHP & ID if/when requested by a LEO...
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Good catch I forgot that one.

    ETA:
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308
    H. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall specify only the following information: name, address, date of birth, gender, height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes, and signature of the permittee; the signature of the judge issuing the permit, or of the clerk of court who has been authorized to sign such permits by the issuing judge; the date of issuance; and the expiration date. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall be no larger than two inches wide by three and one-fourth inches long and shall be of a uniform style prescribed by the Department of State Police. The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo-identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense or United States State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer.

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    I guess what I am trying to clarify is can the LEO force you to based on it being 'part of the investigation'? Even if you said you were not Joe Smith.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    I guess what I am trying to clarify is can the LEO force you to based on it being 'part of the investigation'? Even if you said you were not Joe Smith.
    No....if he had not acknowledged who he was...

    but in the example you gave, since he answered yes, he would have been arrested and fingerprinted if he had no ID....assuming (that word again) he was a suspect in a crime.
    If he was just a possible witness or person of interest, it would be difficult.

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    VAopencarry wrote:
    I guess what I am trying to clarify is can the LEO force you to based on it being 'part of the investigation'? Even if you said you were not Joe Smith.

    No firm info.

    My fall back would be, "If you get to the point you are writing a summons or making an arrest, I'll identify myself to you, Officer."

    I don't know how walking up to you investigating a crime that happened yesterday makes it different than a crime he thinks is happening right now (OC, for example).

    Case law uses words like "...reasonable suspicion based on articulable facts that a crime was, is, or is about to be committed." Meaning the time-frames can vary.

    Its not like the officer has a warrant and is trying to make an arrest in the originalpost. He's just investigating. Too bad if he thinks I'ma perpetrator. The Manassas police thought they had 7 perpetrators last January, in a manner of speaking.

    In the OP, all the officer has is a suspicion that the person he is talking to is a/the perpetrator. If he had probable cause, he'd come with a warrant.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    hinch wrote:
    Virginia has no Stop and Identify Laws, however in that case I believe that the cop would have probable cause to detain and search you for an ID.
    probable casue of what crime?

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    peter nap wrote:
    I guess what I am trying to clarify is can the LEO force you to based on it being 'part of the investigation'? Even if you said you were not Joe Smith.
    No....if he had not acknowledged who he was...

    but in the example you gave, since he answered yes, he would have been arrested and fingerprinted if he had no ID....assuming (that word again) he was a suspect in a crime.
    If he was just a possible witness or person of interest, it would be difficult.
    Huh? An arrest cannot be made absent probable cause; and for misdemanros, state law requires issuance of summons, generally, provided the subject states his name and address.

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    Does the law require you to carry ID on you when you're working in a store? If not the whle question's moot, isn't it? It's like "sterile carry". You can't show ID if you don't have any.

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    Mike wrote:
    hinch wrote:
    Virginia has no Stop and Identify Laws, however in that case I believe that the cop would have probable cause to detain and search you for an ID.
    probable casue of what crime?
    Go easy on the new guys, Boss.

    I suspect he didn't mean probable cause in the 4th Amend. sense. If anything,I suspect he just meant justified.

    Hinch?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    A cop is investigating a non-violent crime. Investigating officer know's the BG's name,clues lead him to an address which happens to be a retail store. Cop walks into store, see's an employee and ask, "Are you Joe Smith" BG: yes, Cop: Show me some ID.
    My answer would vary by context and totality, but it would depend greatly on whether or notI wasthe party the cop was asking about.

    Y: "Why do you ask?"
    C: "I'm asking the questions"
    Y: "No, I am. Let me see your photoID please, and a business card if you have one"
    C: "I don't need to show you identification, now are you Joe Smith?"
    Y: "I'm not answering any questions, have a nice day."

    At this point, the LEO will forcibly detain me with almost certainty.

    If the LEO knows your name and is asking youto verify your identity, they're not asking because you might be a winner, and the LEO most certainly isn't Ed McMahon on the prize patrol. Likely you've been fingeredin a complaint, property of yours has been used or recovered, perhaps in the commission of a crime, there's a warrant for your arrest or a next of kin injured or killed and you're being notified. If it's for a warrant, or investigation and you are a person of interest (translated to citizen language - one and only suspect) they're going to answer "Why?" evasively. Their next statement will probably be a "non" answer.

    Watch the cop's eyes, facial expression and listen to their tone of voice, inflection and body language. If they avert your gaze, get quieter while they talk, actfidgety inany way, these are tell tale signs of lying. Some LEOs are very good at this and don't offer tells. Excessive bravado (bravada, as appropriate) is also an indicator along with conversational deflection. They'll attempt to redirect the conversation to another track or train of thought. That wouldn't be lying, just deception.

    Confessions and admissions make the Commonwealth's burden of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt much easier. As the chief investigators of crime for the Commonwealth LEOs are exposed to methods to make you "feel like talking", engaging you in conversation, small talk, to get you to reveal as much information as they can reasonably get. This is passive intelligence gathering. They're not holding you, but they are investigating you. Small talk about your gun, or attempting to get you to perhaps reveal some information about possible misdeeds? Are being played by good cop / bad cop? "there was one cop who was really cool, and we were talking about guns" - what was the other cop doing? Running your ID for background? looking under your car for secret compartments, spotlighting your interior for 'plain, obvious view contraband'?

    Generally speaking, any conversation beyond "hello" is not in the citizen's interest to continue. That is, unless you are truly skilled in the art of interrogation, non answering, evading direct questions and the like.

    Remember, it's perfectly legal for cops to lie to you, but a crime for you to lie to them.

    "Are you Joe Smith" is a consensual encounter that the citizen need not participate in and they need not even acknowledge the existence of the LEO, much less speak with them. However, if they suspect that you are, in fact, Joe Smith I believe they can initiate an investigative detention under 4A. They may seek out customers and other employees to ask them if they know you are Joe Smith. The problem here is that once you're being detained, your flightis an arrestable offense. Once you're in the chain of custody, your chance to flee is significantly curtailed. "JoeSmith was just by the dressing room... 1, maybe 2 minutes ago, they're about 50 feet toward the rear of the store and to the left"...






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    longwatch wrote:
    Good catch I forgot that one.

    ETA:
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308
    H. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall specify only the following information: name, address, date of birth, gender, height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes, and signature of the permittee; the signature of the judge issuing the permit, or of the clerk of court who has been authorized to sign such permits by the issuing judge; the date of issuance; and the expiration date. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall be no larger than two inches wide by three and one-fourth inches long and shall be of a uniform style prescribed by the Department of State Police. The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo-identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense or United States State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer.
    Ummm. What do non-residents present for the second identification? :P If they aren't military or carrying a passport, they could be in a world of hurt!

    Y: But officer, it's a Pennsylvania driver's license!
    C: Doesn't matter. Isn't issued by Virginia, DoD, or the State Department.




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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    See the section on reciprocity. ETA the section only applies to Virginia resident permit holders, to reciprocal permit holders they must carry their state equivalents.

    P. A valid concealed handgun or concealed weapon permit or license issued by another state shall authorize the holder of such permit or license who is at least 21 years of age to carry a concealed handgun in the Commonwealth, provided (i) the issuing authority provides the means for instantaneous verification of the validity of all such permits or licenses issued within that state, accessible 24 hours a day, and (ii) except for the age of the permit or license holder and the type of weapon authorized to be carried, the requirements and qualifications of that state's law are adequate to prevent possession of a permit or license by persons who would be denied a permit in the Commonwealth under this section. The Superintendent of State Police shall (a) in consultation with the Office of the Attorney General determine whether states meet the requirements and qualifications of this section, (b) maintain a registry of such states on the Virginia Criminal Information Network (VCIN), and (c) make the registry available to law-enforcement officers for investigative purposes. The Superintendent of the State Police, in consultation with the Attorney General, may also enter into agreements for reciprocal recognition with any state qualifying for recognition under this subsection.

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    nickerj1 wrote:
    longwatch wrote:
    Good catch I forgot that one.

    ETA:
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308
    H. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall specify only the following information: name, address, date of birth, gender, height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes, and signature of the permittee; the signature of the judge issuing the permit, or of the clerk of court who has been authorized to sign such permits by the issuing judge; the date of issuance; and the expiration date. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall be no larger than two inches wide by three and one-fourth inches long and shall be of a uniform style prescribed by the Department of State Police. The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo-identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense or United States State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer.
    Ummm. What do non-residents present for the second identification? :P If they aren't military or carrying a passport, they could be in a world of hurt!

    Y: But officer, it's a Pennsylvania driver's license!
    C: Doesn't matter. Isn't issued by Virginia, DoD, or the State Department.
    Section P1, which relates to non-resident permits, says:

    "...The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall contain only the following information: name, address, date of birth, gender, height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes, and photograph of the permittee; the signature of the Superintendent of the Virginia Department of State Police or his designee; the date of issuance; and the expiration date. The person to whom the permit is issued shall have such permit on his person at all times when he is carrying a concealed handgun in the Commonwealth and shall display the permit on demand by a law-enforcement officer...."
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    Mr. Y wrote:
    snip
    Remember, it's perfectly legal for cops to lie to you, but a crime for you to lie to them.

    snip


    for my information, do you have a cite? is it always or just under oath, hindering the investigation of another? if it is a blanket "shall not make any false statements" do you have a cite exempting the leo?

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    roscoe13 wrote:
    nickerj1 wrote:
    longwatch wrote:
    Good catch I forgot that one.

    ETA:
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308
    H. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall specify only the following information: name, address, date of birth, gender, height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes, and signature of the permittee; the signature of the judge issuing the permit, or of the clerk of court who has been authorized to sign such permits by the issuing judge; the date of issuance; and the expiration date. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall be no larger than two inches wide by three and one-fourth inches long and shall be of a uniform style prescribed by the Department of State Police. The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo-identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense or United States State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer.
    Ummm. What do non-residents present for the second identification? :P If they aren't military or carrying a passport, they could be in a world of hurt!

    Y: But officer, it's a Pennsylvania driver's license!
    C: Doesn't matter. Isn't issued by Virginia, DoD, or the State Department.
    Section P1, which relates to non-resident permits, says:

    "...The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall contain only the following information: name, address, date of birth, gender, height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes, and photograph of the permittee; the signature of the Superintendent of the Virginia Department of State Police or his designee; the date of issuance; and the expiration date. The person to whom the permit is issued shall have such permit on his person at all times when he is carrying a concealed handgun in the Commonwealth and shall display the permit on demand by a law-enforcement officer...."
    So just like the Albo Fee's only apply to the residents of Virginia; the requirement to provide a photo ID with a CHP only apply to residents of Va.

    I place another piece of straw on the camel's back...

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    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    Toad wrote:
    So just like the Albo Fee's only apply to the residents of Virginia; the requirement to provide a photo ID with a CHP only apply to residents of Va.

    I place another piece of straw on the camel's back...
    Well, the non-resident permit IS a photo ID, the resident permit is not. In either case you have to produce a photo ID...
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    roscoe13 wrote:
    Toad wrote:
    So just like the Albo Fee's only apply to the residents of Virginia; the requirement to provide a photo ID with a CHP only apply to residents of Va.

    I place another piece of straw on the camel's back...
    Well, the non-resident permit IS a photo ID, the resident permit is not. In either case you have to produce a photo ID...
    One can be a CHP holder from a reciprocal state and not have a Va issued non-resident CHP. do they still need to have the seperate ID even if their state CHP doen't have a picture? I see nothing in the code sections posted in the thread so far that mentions that they must.

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    Here's another twist to the VA CHP. The address on the CHP does not have to match the one on the valid ID. As far the original question the post started with. I would show my ID since a crime was commited to help catch the BG before it could escalate into a violent encounter which would lead to more anti gun press.

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    ijusam wrote:
    Mr. Y wrote:
    snip
    Remember, it's perfectly legal for cops to lie to you, but a crime for you to lie to them.

    snip


    for my information, do you have a cite? is it always or just under oath, hindering the investigation of another? if it is a blanket "shall not make any false statements" do you have a cite exempting the leo?
    What are you asking? What gives a LEO the right to lie, or what makes it a crime for you to lie to LE?

    Most codes have something along the lines of "does not apply to Law Enforcement in performance of duties..."

    Whatmakes it illegal for you - during an investigation - in Virginia is: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...8.2-460+401555

    D. Any person who knowingly and willfully makes any materially false [/b]statement[/b] or representation to a law[/b]-enforcement officer who is in the course of conducting an investigation of a crime by another is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

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    Toad wrote:
    One can be a CHP holder from a reciprocal state and not have a Va issued non-resident CHP. do they still need to have the seperate ID even if their state CHP doen't have a picture? I see nothing in the code sections posted in the thread so far that mentions that they must.
    No - the VSP CHP IS Commonwealth ID.

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    Mike wrote:
    Toad wrote:
    One can be a CHP holder from a reciprocal state and not have a Va issued non-resident CHP. do they still need to have the seperate ID even if their state CHP doen't have a picture? I see nothing in the code sections posted in the thread so far that mentions that they must.
    No - the VSP CHP IS Commonwealth ID.
    Read it again. He's talking about someone that has an out of state permit from a state that's recognized in VA...
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    roscoe13 wrote:
    Read it again. He's talking about someone that has an out of state permit from a state that's recognized in VA...
    OK, got it - the answer is that persons carrying in VA on other states' concealed handgun permits have no duty under VA law per se, 18.2-308(P) to either (1) have a photo on the permit, or (2) carry photo ID with a permit.

    "P. A valid concealed handgun or concealed weapon permit or license issued by another state shall authorize the holder of such permit or license who is at least 21 years of age to carry a concealed handgun in the Commonwealth, provided (i) the issuing authority provides the means for instantaneous verification of the validity of all such permits or licenses issued within that state, accessible 24 hours a day, and (ii) except for the age of the permit or license holder and the type of weapon authorized to be carried, the requirements and qualifications of that state's law are adequate to prevent possession of a permit or license by persons who would be denied a permit in the Commonwealth under this section. The Superintendent of State Police shall (a) in consultation with the Office of the Attorney General determine whether states meet the requirements and qualifications of this section, (b) maintain a registry of such states on the Virginia Criminal Information Network (VCIN), and (c) make the registry available to law-enforcement officers for investigative purposes. The Superintendent of the State Police, in consultation with the Attorney General, may also enter into agreements for reciprocal recognition with any state qualifying for recognition under this subsection."

    However, if the other state requires a photo ID to be carried with the non-photo permit, then it would be extremely prudent to do so in VA.

    Interestingly, Del. Nutter's annual bill to make VA a "shall accept state," which gets killed every year by Senator Stolle (R - VA Beach) on Courts of Justice committee, goes over-bpard the other direction - requiring additional photo ID regardless of whether the out of state permit has a photo on it.

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