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  1. #1
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    what does this sign say?

    can you carry on this school?[img]file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/R%20HALBROOK/My%20Documents/My%20Pictures/kt6091jf.jpg[/img]

  2. #2
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    Can't see the sign there randy. Maybe provide a link to it, or try reposting it.

  3. #3
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    did that work

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    To me it means if you have a Texas CHL, you legally can carry on campus.

    If you're an armed criminal, however, you may not carry on campus.

    Ora decent citizen who is carrying but doesn't have a permit.

    ...the latter two individuals carry at their own legal risk as they do everywhere they go outside of their own house.

    -- John D.


    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    cloudcroft wrote:
    To me it means if you have a Texas CHL, you legally can carry on campus.

    If you're an armed criminal, however, you may not carry on campus.

    Ora decent citizen who is carrying but doesn't have a permit.

    ...the latter two individuals carry at their own legal risk as they do everywhere they go outside of their own house.

    -- John D.

    +1......

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    cloudcroft wrote:
    To me it means if you have a Texas CHL, you legally can carry on campus.

    If you're an armed criminal, however, you may not carry on campus.

    Ora decent citizen who is carrying but doesn't have a permit.

    ...the latter two individuals carry at their own legal risk as they do everywhere they go outside of their own house.

    -- John D.

    There is no difference between these two people, according to the law.

  7. #7
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    True...but to me there is a great difference.

    And that's one reason why the Justice statue wearinga blindfold gives the wrong message.

    -- John D.




    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    It's absolutely meaningless. "Unlicensed carry" is prohibited everywhere, not just on the TTU campus, except for the exemptions created by the leglislature. Such as traveling, or being in a private car (even without a license).

    Texas Tech is a public institution, a taxing authority, and is a political subdivision of the State of Texas. As such, they have no legal authority to restrict firearms, any more than the City of Lubbuck does. That authority is reserved exclusively to the legislature.


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    I assume that students are prohibited from carrying on the Tech campus(and all other college campuses in Texas) or face expulsion?

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    KBCraig wrote:
    It's absolutely meaningless. "Unlicensed carry" is prohibited everywhere, not just on the TTU campus, except for the exemptions created by the leglislature. Such as traveling, or being in a private car (even without a license).
    For years, in Texas, we've dealt with the state laws that have criminalized unlicensed carry, but do we have real case law that doesn't involve criminals with the TX supreme court upholding this particular law?

    I'm asking because i've yet to find real case law on this and i'm currently trying to explore a lawsuit to decriminalize carrying without a license.

    TIA

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    DKSuddeth wrote:
    For years, in Texas, we've dealt with the state laws that have criminalized unlicensed carry, but do we have real case law that doesn't involve criminals with the TX supreme court upholding this particular law?

    I'm asking because i've yet to find real case law on this and i'm currently trying to explore a lawsuit to decriminalize carrying without a license.

    TIA
    You won't find any case law. The newest version of the law only took effect September 1, so if there have been any convictions, they haven't worked their way through the system yet.


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    Randy,

    TTU placed that version of the sign up in place of a previous version that simply read "the possession of firearms prohibited on this property". The old signs werequestioned and the revised signs put up.

    Basically, being state property, no state university in Texas can post property not otherwiserestricted under the law for concealed carry. Since buildings are the only restricted places on campuses, it is legal to concealed carry on campus as long as you do not enter a building or sports venue.

    With that said, bare in mind that the Universities have more control over students and faculty through the use of their code of conduct rules. While they can not charge you under state or local law for CCW on campus, they can kick you out of school for violating a student COC rule or fire an employee for the same. So, if you are a student or an employee, bare this in mind. In the case of TTU, however, it appears that the university does not have a contradictory policy for students. Referring to the Code of Student Conduct,section B(4) states:

    4. Firearms, Weapons and Explosives

    a. Use or possession of any weapon(s), including, but not limited to, handguns, firearms, ammunition, fireworks, pellet guns, paintball guns, bb guns, or explosives or noxious materials, on university premises except as expressly permitted by federal, state and/or local law.

    This would lead one to believe that since CCW is legal on campus under state law, it is not a violation of the Code of Student Conduct either, therefore, if you have a CHL, you are allowedto carry on campus as a student in those areas allowed under state law.

    Personally, I know lots of TTU students and faculty that do.

    Hope this helps.

    Doc


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    KBCraig wrote:
    You won't find any case law. The newest version of the law only took effect September 1, so if there have been any convictions, they haven't worked their way through the system yet.
    I was specifically asking about the concealed carry law, not the new traveling exemption.

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    Is this still how the law reads? Prohibited areas include.....

    Code:
    (1)  on the physical premises of a school or 
    educational institution, any grounds or building on which an 
    activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being 
    conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or 
    educational institution, whether the school or educational 
    institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written 
    regulations or written authorization of the institution;
    If so, by the wording of that sign, is it giving permission for licensed carry? And if that's the case, what precludes one from carrying in buildings?

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    My daughter is a studentat the university now and I dont want to brake any laws. As it stands now I leave my 1911 in the car while on campus. I am a firm believer that there should be no restriction on my carry.GET YOUR GUNS UP

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    Notso wrote:
    Is this still how the law reads? Prohibited areas include.....

    Code:
    (1) on the physical premises of a school or 
    educational institution, any grounds or building on which an 
    activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being 
    conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or 
    educational institution, whether the school or educational 
    institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written 
    regulations or written authorization of the institution;
    If so, by the wording of that sign, is it giving permission for licensed carry? And if that's the case, what precludes one from carrying in buildings?
    The section that you have quoted is under § 46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED and yes, it is the correct wording for that section. You must, however,read on down to § 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER, which applies the section to CHL holders,which states:

    § 46.035 (b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:
    (2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event;


    Next, refer to § 46.035 (f)(3), which provides a definition of for the term "Premises" as applied to this section,which states:

    § 46.035 (f) In this section: (3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.


    In short, under Texas law, CHL holders are allowed to carry on school property as long as they do not cross the threshold of any doorways into a building or other contained venue, such as a sports stadium.

    Hope this helps.

    Doc

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    Thanks for the reply Doc. I am still wondering though that if that sign is in fact the school giving written permission for concealed carry on premises, why would one not be allowed to carry into a classroom or any other building that is not a sporting event nor an interscholastic event? I can certainly understand not carrying into a stadium or gymnasium while a sporting event is taking place or into a classroom(portion of a building) where an interscholastic event may be taking place. Am I missing something, or maybe that's exactly what you're saying ?

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    that is what I was going with but, I am unsure so I leave the 1911 in the car

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    Notso wrote:
    Thanks for the reply Doc. I am still wondering though that if that sign is in fact the school giving written permission for concealed carry on premises, why would one not be allowed to carry into a classroom or any other building that is not a sporting event nor an interscholastic event? I can certainly understand not carrying into a stadium or gymnasium while a sporting event is taking place or into a classroom(portion of a building) where an interscholastic event may be taking place. Am I missing something, or maybe that's exactly what you're saying ?



    Under § 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE, there is no provision for the institution to allow you to carry under the authority of yourCHL, even on their property. 46.035 merely addresses the where state law allows and disallows a CHL holder to carry in addition to the provisions of 46.03 general.

    The only place that allowssuch aninstitution to grant you permission to carry on otherwise prohibited property is under§ 46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED(1), which states:

    (1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;

    By written regulations or written authorization of the institution, it is routinely held that it must be specific written authorization directed specifically toward the individual or group in the form of a letter or filed text. The placement of a generic sign at the entrance of a parking lot in no waymeet the requirement of this statute.

    Basically, you would need a letter from the head of the institution giving you specific authorization to carry there and such authorization can be given to anyone regardless of their having a CHL or not. Likewise, the written regulation clause refers to things like school regulations that allow employees or other groups to carry on the premises. In either case, a generic sign posted at the parking lot does not suffice.


    All these signs are doing is warning the non-licensed that they can not carry in the campus anywhere while acknowledging the provisions grant a CHL holder under the law.


    Doc





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    randy1911 wrote:
    that is what I was going with but, I am unsure so I leave the 1911 in the car
    There is really nothing else you can do. Unless you intend to visit outside and not enter a building, you have to leave it in your vehicle. If you are simply walking the campus and visiting your daughter outside under a tree or sitting on a bench, then you are perfectly legal to keep it on your person. Anywhere that allows for public open access is legal i.e street, sidewalk, etc, is legal. If there is controlled entrance, such as a building, stadium or fenced and gated area, then carry is prohibited without prior written permission of the university.

    I leave mine in my vehicle unless I know for certain that I will not be entering a building. Occasionally this is the case and I have carried on campus away from my vehicle, but normally I leave it in the vehicle so I can enter the buildings if I need to.

    Doc

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    Thanks for the clarification Doc.

    BTW, does anyone know where it is in the Tx constitution or statutes that makes open carry illegal?

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    Are there any LEOS that have delt with this on campus on Texas Tech?

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    Notso wrote:
    Thanks for the clarification Doc.

    BTW, does anyone know where it is in the Tx constitution or statutes that makes open carry illegal?
    First off, the Texas Constitution does not make open carry illegal directly, but does allow the state to enact laws regarding the wearing of arms. Under Article 1 - Bill of Rights of the Texas Constitution, Section 23 states:

    Section 23 - RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS

    Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms in the lawful defense of himself or the State; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms, with a view to prevent crime.

    As for the statute that makes open carry illegal, it is 46.02(a) of the Texas Penal Code, which reads:

    Texas Penal Code § 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on
    or about his person a handgun, illegal knife, or club.


    This statute make it illegal to carry a handgun in any manner, except where expressly exempt by PC § 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. Under 46.15, specific groups and situations are outline in which 46.02 (and/or 46.03) does not apply, such as police officers, security officers, judges and so on. As part of this section, 46.15(b)(6) expressly exempts those carrying a concealed handgun under the CHL.

    In short,Texas lawprohibits the carry of a handgun in any manner by anyone, then merely provides specific exemptions to which the law does not apply.

    Doc


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    DocNTexas wrote:
    Notso wrote:
    Thanks for the clarification Doc.

    BTW, does anyone know where it is in the Tx constitution or statutes that makes open carry illegal?
    First off, the Texas Constitution does not make open carry illegal directly, but does allow the state to enact laws regarding the wearing of arms. Under Article 1 - Bill of Rights of the Texas Constitution, Section 23 states:

    Section 23 - RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS

    Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms in the lawful defense of himself or the State; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms, with a view to prevent crime.

    As for the statute that makes open carry illegal, it is 46.02(a) of the Texas Penal Code, which reads:

    Texas Penal Code § 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on
    or about his person a handgun, illegal knife, or club.


    This statute make it illegal to carry a handgun in any manner, except where expressly exempt by PC § 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. Under 46.15, specific groups and situations are outline in which 46.02 (and/or 46.03) does not apply, such as police officers, security officers, judges and so on. As part of this section, 46.15(b)(6) expressly exempts those carrying a concealed handgun under the CHL.

    In short,Texas lawprohibits the carry of a handgun in any manner by anyone, then merely provides specific exemptions to which the law does not apply.

    Doc
    I still don't get why TEXAS of all states is so damn strict when it comes to Open Carry! It's outrageous.

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    DocNTexas wrote:
    First off, the Texas Constitution does not make open carry illegal directly, but does allow the state to enact laws regarding the wearing of arms. Under Article 1 - Bill of Rights of the Texas Constitution, Section 23 states:

    Section 23 - RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS

    Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms in the lawful defense of himself or the State; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms, with a view to prevent crime.

    As for the statute that makes open carry illegal, it is 46.02(a) of the Texas Penal Code, which reads:

    Texas Penal Code § 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on
    or about his person a handgun, illegal knife, or club.


    This statute make it illegal to carry a handgun in any manner, except where expressly exempt by PC § 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. Under 46.15, specific groups and situations are outline in which 46.02 (and/or 46.03) does not apply, such as police officers, security officers, judges and so on. As part of this section, 46.15(b)(6) expressly exempts those carrying a concealed handgun under the CHL.

    In short,Texas lawprohibits the carry of a handgun in any manner by anyone, then merely provides specific exemptions to which the law does not apply.

    Doc
    Doc, I had asked earlier in this thread with no answer, but is there case law (not via criminal convictions) that has the texas courts upholding this license scheme?

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