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Thread: Article I $ 21 Defense Fund for Greg Rotz's appeal of his Orwellian LTCF revocation

  1. #1
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    Sheriff's 1st letter to Greg: http://www.gnbrotz.com/images/sheriffletter.jpg

    Sheriff's 2d letter to Greg: http://www.gnbrotz.com/images/revocation.jpg

    This incredible development calls for invocation of the NATO doctrine - an attack on Greg Rotz is an attack on all gun owners!

    This case is what we have been waiting for in Pennsylvania to put to rest rumors of risk to your LTCF for lawful open carry. Greg has promised to donate any remaining money to the PA Firearm Owners Association.







    Article I $ 21 Defense Fund for Greg Rotz



    Greg needs at least $2,500 to initiate legal action by bright and early Tuesday morning - that's why OCDO needs all members to give some money to Greg via his pay pal account - go directly to
    http://www.paypal.com, click "send money," then "send money online," to Greg's account by entering: gnbrotz at embarqmail dot com.


    If you can, we ask you give $121 in commemoration of Article I, § 21 of the Pennsylvania constitution which provides that:


    "The right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the State shall not be questioned."


    The nutshell facts in this case are as follows: Greg went to vote openly carrying his handgun. A constable asked him not to do so, and Greg politely agreed to a consensual interview about the matter before voting; but after reviewing the law with Greg, the Constable indicated to Greg it was not unlawful for him to carry at the polls and that he would not stop him from voting - Greg voted, and left. A few days later Greg received an Orwellian revocation letter from the Franklin County Sheriff at http://www.gnbrotz.com/images/revocation.jpg.

    I personally can vouch for Greg and I personally just sent him $121. Please do what YOU can, right NOW. Let's roll!

    For more background, see: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum46/5845.html& http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed...lls-ocing.html




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    Might Mr. Rotz's LTCF number want to be highlighted with a black highlighter in the letter so that it isn't visible to everyone?

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    Might Mr. Brotz's LTCF number want to be highlighted with a black highlighter in the letter so that it isn't visible to everyone?
    Thanks, he is fixin' it right now.

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    FYI: Crossposted to PAFOA

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    This is complete and total bull, as soon as I get our google adsense check that will be going straight to his paypal.

    also crossposted to penncdl.org (yea still around) I'm working 75 hours a week it sucks but might pull an all nighter researching anything to help greg out.

    Hell, i'm steamed enough to try and write legislation forcing a court hearing before a revocation of a licence. There is no checks and balances on this system.

  6. #6
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    Yup I hear ya. Been out of the loop last few weeks myself, between hunting and work, etc.

    I started a "rummage sale" thread on PAFOA to help raise $
    Every dollar will help, check it out.
    http://www.pafoa.org/forum/everythin...l-defense.html


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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    Just a suggestion: filing a civil action is commendable, but has anyone considered contacting a state legislator and discussing having this sheriff tried in the legislature? Most states have laws which allow such a hearing before the house of representatives. Take the offense where the guilty party stands to suffer, personally. Such an action would certainly garner more media attention than just another civil suit.
    We will "try" this Sheriff in the press as soon as either he backs down or the Court of Common Pleas reverses him; after all, the Court reviews revocation de novo.

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    Can't afford $121, but I did just PayPal what I felt I could spare. Good luck, sir!

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    Has anyone looked up the specific statute that the license is being revoked under?

    § 6109. Licenses.
    (e) Issuance of license.--
    (1) A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle and shall be issued if, after an investigation not to exceed 45 days, it appears that the applicant is an individual concerning whom no good cause exists to deny the license. A license shall not be issued to any of the following:
    (i) An individual whose character and reputation is such that the individual would be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety.


    Once again, at a loss for words.

    So what basis does the sheriff even have as to Mr. Rotz's "character and reputation"? Oh, a letter in which the sheriff himself admitted that what Mr. Rotz is doing is indeed legal.

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    Once again, at a loss for words.

    So what basis does the sheriff even have as to Mr. Rotz's "character and reputation"? Oh, a letter in which the sheriff himself admitted that what Mr. Rotz is doing is indeed legal.
    Right. But also look closely at the Sheriff's first letter - the letter implies harassment of OCers even though the Sheriff should know that the PA Supreme Court has said police may not detain people for mere gun carry. Commonwealth v. Hawkins,692 A.2d 1068 (Pa.1997) (report of citizen gun carry not per se grounds for terry stop; "In all parts of Pennsylvania, persons who are licensed may carry concealed firearms. 18 Pa.C.S.§ 6108. Except in Philadelphia, firearms may be carried openly without a license. See Ortiz v. Commonwealth, 545 Pa. 279, 283, 681 A.2d 152, 155 (1996) ("only in Philadelphia must a person obtain a license for carrying a firearm whether it is unconcealed or concealed; in other parts of the Commonwealth, unconcealed firearms do not require a license")"), available at http://www.courts.state.pa.us/oppost...f/k00jiz95.pdf.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Wow, this is quite a pearl.

    I am not defending the Sheriff, but perhaps he has been misinformed. If he does not recant in short order, then there is only one course of action.Make an example of this Sheriff. If he gets away with this, others will do it. If the pain he feels is massive and unmerciful, other sheriffs will respect you rights.

    How can you make him feel the pain?

    FOIA -Freedom of Information Act requests are quite effective and are often a treasure trove of valuable information.

    Open Carry at every opportunity. If asked by a LEO why are you open carrying? Answer:Because I want to before the Sheriff arbitrarily violates my 2nd and 14th amendment rights. Ensure that the Sheriff understands that his actions have not tamped down those uppety OC people. His actions have caused the number of persons open carrying to increase exponentially.

    Letters to the Editor - Explain the outrage. Frame this as what it is. A vindictive action to suppress lawful activity.

    Open Carry Events - Have a get together at a local restaurant. Invite local press. Let tthe press see that it is normal. Enjoy the camaraderie.

    MotivateLocal Politicians- Many are very sympathetic to concerned citizens. Many are more concerned about being re-elected. Push the buttons.

    Start a Tourism Boycott - Contact the Tourism Bureau -E-mail proclaiming a boycott because of the un-Aamerican actions of the sheriff will upset many that rely upon tourism.

    The courses of action are limited only by your imagination.

    P.S. Do not count on any help from the NRA - Negotiate your Rights Away group. Many there are openly opposed to open carry.


    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    just a note: until he gets his legal councel hold off on media stuff. want to make sure everything is in sync. But plan away, god knows I am.

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    The main thing is for folks to contribute to Greg right now so he gets a good start with legal counsel this coming week.

    We can do press stuff, an open carry press conference in that County etc. later after greg gets his LTCF restored.

    So if you are commenting on this thread, I hope that means you already gave somthing!

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    ......."This my friend is FRANKLIN county"...............where the law only applies when the uppity up's see fit........


    oh, btw, I have a few cast iron pieces on eaby right now, and will be sending that money whenever they sell, if your interested take a look.......

    http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZswisherswt

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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    Thundar,

    You're on the right track. Now, take it one step further. Round up some serious volunteers. Take turns camping out on his driveway's entrance to the street. Make it personal, which it is. Hold up signs, letting every one of his neighbors know they live near a criminal, him. Find out where his favorite restaurant is. Ask the staff not to serve him. If they refuse, stand outside, holding signs letting the OTHER patrons know just what type of people this establishment serves. Call in to local talk radio, letting their listeners know just what kind of sheriff they have, in the event they don't already know. Contact the local newspaper and demand they reveal the sheriff for what he truly is. Remind them Benjamin Franklin once said, "the newspapers are to be the watchdogs of liberty." Ask them how they'd grade themselves. If you encounter the sheriff anywhere in public, let the sheriff and everyone within earshot know just how little respect you have for him due to his criminal behavior. I'm sure you can expand it from here.
    In theory that would be even better... but if this sheriff isn't too much of a fan of following the law in the first place, what is going to stop him from having protestors locked up on trumped-up charges? Or from, perhaps, shooting them because they pointed a non-existant gun at him?

    I have an even better solution, but not one that I'm going to state on a public forum

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    State Researcher .40 Cal's Avatar
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    Does anyone else see a discrepancy in the Sherriff's signatures? Can we say forgery in the county office?

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    .40 Cal wrote:
    Does anyone else see a discrepancy in the Sherriff's signatures? Can we say forgery in the county office?
    Hmm I just looked, and the signatures do indeed look nothing alike, except for the name.

    :shock:

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    Good eye!! I hadn't noticed that. I'm sure that will be pawned off as someone authorized to sign on his behalf. Of course if that is the case they should be signing their name and not his........ Don't they realize that one of those rubber stamps are only a few bucks?

    I'm watching this thread very closely. I asked about the legality of carrying to vote the week before elections and only got positive responces. The one thing that was mentioned in my thread was concerning schools. Was this polling place in a school?

    I think the first question that the sherrif should be required to answer is what "illegal manner" he is referring to. Secondly, the sherrif references Title 18, Section 6109, paragraph (e)(1)(i):
    Code:
    An individual whose character and reputation is
    such that the individual would be likely to act in a
    manner dangerous to public safety
    There is a huge discrepancy between "illegal manner" and the reason stated! That subparagraph is related to reasons why a permit can be denied (and revoked), but in no way references any violation of any laws. If the sherrif thinks this gentleman broke the law, he should arrest him. If he thinks his character and reputation are bad, then revoke the permit. He can't have it both ways! And by me saying revoke the permit I am in no way agreeing with the sherrif's actions. He will have a hard time convincing the judge that this one act, which was legal, encompasses ones character and reputation.

    As I said, I'm very interested in this and wish I had the funds to donate. This may turn into THE case concerning PA carry rights. (Glad I'm moving next spring.) After this we all may never be able to carry again.... or there will be clarification on one of the many vague wordings within our state's firearm laws. Good luck!!

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    The issue would be that if someone else reviewed and signed off on this revocation without cause (if this is the case), how many other instances has his name gone out without the correct due process or knowledge of the law? How many un-vocalized injustices can be attributed to this and so many other counties?

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    The letter was signed by two different people, but notice the signature on the revocation letter has 2 or maybe 3 letters at the end of the sheriffs name. Look just to the right of the letter g. That is probably the initials of the signer.

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    Did I oversleep, miss my stop and end up in RED CHINA ?

    This is an outrage ! I would probably refuse to turn the permit in, get arrested and sue for false arrest.

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    just a guy, with a Glock wrote:
    ...I would probably refuse to turn the permit in, get arrested and sue for false arrest.
    My thoughts exactly.

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    Any news regarding the cert that contained more details?

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    Any news regarding the cert that contained more details?

    Sorry guys, I've been busy and have only been updating the PAFOA threads when I get a minute:

    http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed...tml#post135586

    The cert letter was the same as the one rcv'd on Friday.


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    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    The cert letter was the same as the one rcv'd on Friday.
    Bah.

    What's really troublesome, though, is the broader idea that the state (I'm guessing this is a form letter) or at least the county expect people to unquestioningly surrender their LTCFs based on such a vague accusation. If I get my driver's license revoked, PENNDOT will at least let me know specifically why it was revoked, not just send me a notice telling me that it's for "apparent illegal conduct".

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