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Thread: Private sales "loophole"

  1. #1
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    Okay, some back story here...

    Several months ago a man purchased a gun from a private seller in Pierce County and used it to murder his wife, and then kill himself in front of their children. There was a restraining order on the man.

    Last Sunday The Olympian ran this article, http://www.theolympian.com/southsound/story/261771.html which summed up the investigation into the shooting, plus had comments from the director of a domestic violence shelter and the local state Representative, Brendan Williams, both were anti gun.

    Today The Olympian runs this opinion piece on the private seller "loophole" http://www.theolympian.com/opinion/story/266428.html they go on in the opinion piece to state "There must be a compromise, here, that can close the loophole and not infringe upon the rights of individuals to own a firearm."

    Now I have sold several guns recently, and they were both to people I know in the marina where I live. At least on person has a valid CPL, and I know the other person is legal to own firearms. Both are Iraq War vets. I personally would not sell a handgun to someone I did not know without seeing a CPL or doing it through a dealer. I do not want to sell the next crime gun.

    BUT... Kalifornia has laws that force all guns sold to go through dealers, private sales or not, and we can see what that does for crime. I see where the Olympian says that criminals will always find a way to commit their crime.
    So, is there truly a loophole? Should private transactions be limited to CPL holders? My completely unbiased :P view of this is an opinion piece that has some refreshing honesty (laws don't deter criminals) acknowledges the right to bear arms, and is mostly a fluff piece to patronize the liberal weenies in this town. I am glad to see the RKBA stance, but since I have not settled in my own mind the issue of private transfers.... The only way to ensure compliance with a law like this would be through registration which is not a happy thing. As a responsible person I like to know who I am selling weapons to, but responsibility cannot be made law.

    So, thoughts???

    Steve

  2. #2
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    it's only a 'loophole' because it's not regulated by a government entity. most anti's need to have that sense of security that only a government entity or authority can give them via laws and regulations.

  3. #3
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    I have heard some advice about private selling.

    Make a photocopy or write down the buyers drivers liscence and name. Make him sign a piece of paper saying that he is legally able to buy a firearm.

  4. #4
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    nofoa wrote:
    I have heard some advice about private selling.

    Make a photocopy or write down the buyers drivers liscence and name. Make him sign a piece of paper saying that he is legally able to buy a firearm.
    That's what I do. Should it be required? No. Watch, at the very least Brendan Williams will push for everyone doing a private sale to copy this information and submit it to local fuzz. Next will come more requirements, then registration, then FOIDs, then confiscation, state constitution be damned. But responsibility should play a role in private sales.

    Steve

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    That's what it is, a way to register all guns.

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    CC27 wrote:
    That's what it is, a way to register all guns.
    Agreed. The government has no business interfering in my personal transactions.

  7. #7
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    If the law doesn't prohibit private sales then it is not a "loophole".
    Just like OC is not a "loophole"

    Silly leftists.


  8. #8
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    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    If the law doesn't prohibit private sales then it is not a "loophole".
    Just like OC is not a "loophole"

    Silly leftists.
    Ahh, good point, although the way they are saying it is, "dealers have to do it." Maybe we should close the "loophole" for private party car sales too. After all dealers have to do more things when they sell a car.

    Steve

  9. #9
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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    Maybe we should close the "loophole" for private party car sales too. After all dealers have to do more things when they sell a car.

    Steve
    Yer learnin'



  10. #10
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    American Rattlesnake wrote:
    CC27 wrote:
    That's what it is, a way to register all guns.
    Agreed. The government has no business interfering in my personal transactions.
    Agreed...

    BTW, did you know that there is, and has been for quite a while, a form for voluntarily recording private sales of handguns?

    "This form may be voluntarily submitted by the seller or transferor to report the sale,transfer of ownership, loss, or other disposition of a pistol or revolver (RCW 9.41)."

    http://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/652004.pdf

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    GunnyG wrote:
    American Rattlesnake wrote:
    CC27 wrote:
    That's what it is, a way to register all guns.
    Agreed. The government has no business interfering in my personal transactions.
    Agreed...

    BTW, did you know that there is, and has been for quite a while, a form for voluntarily recording private sales of handguns?

    "This form may be voluntarily submitted by the seller or transferor to report the sale,transfer of ownership, loss, or other disposition of a pistol or revolver (RCW 9.41)."

    http://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/652004.pdf
    Gunny, I was wondering how long it would be before such a form surfaced here,seems ever so reasonable, etc, but it is, of course, the thin end of the wedge!

    Too much voluntary stuff tends to become mandatory these days,

    Just use COMMON SENSE when conducting private sales, surely?

    TrueBrit.

  12. #12
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    I have always checked a cpl and wdl when I've sold private party, just what I was taught!

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    TrueBrit wrote:
    Gunny, I was wondering how long it would be before such a form surfaced here,seems ever so reasonable, etc, but it is, of course, the thin end of the wedge!

    Too much voluntary stuff tends to become mandatory these days,

    Just use COMMON SENSE when conducting private sales, surely?

    TrueBrit.
    Not sure if I agree with you on that one. This form seems more like a cover-your-butt thing in case the gun is used in a crime. It's something you could take to court and use to prove you thought you were not selling to a criminal. I would definately use this, just so if a gun I sold ever was used in a crime, I can prove I sold it and had nothing to do with it afterwards.

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    This is what I do. This way seller has your info to cover his ass and you have his info to cover yours. And the government can stay the hell out of it.



    [size=Bill of Purchase][/size]

    [size=][/size]

    [size=][/size]

    [size=][/size]

    I, bought a Taurus 44 Magnum, serial number from ***** ****** on June 14, 2005 for $000.00.



    Driver’s license number

    DOB







    Signed by:

    Date:











    [size=][/size]

    [size=][/size]

    [size=][/size]

    [size=][/size]

    [size= Bill of SALE][/size]







    Isold a Taurus 44 Magnum, serial number to ************ on June 14, 2005 for $000.00.



    Driver’s license number

    DOB







    Signed by:

    Date:

  15. #15
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    Use the form, put it in an envelope and mail it to your self, registered mail. When it arrives, do not open it. You now have proof, with a date and certification by the USPS, without letting the state know about it. Use BLUE ink, as it will always copy as black. This will prove to be an original.

    Jim

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    TrueBrit wrote:
    Just use COMMON SENSE when conducting private sales, surely?

    TrueBrit.
    One must rember that Common Sense is becoming just a word. Fewer and fewer people today exercise it if they have it.

    If you read about the aftermath of the Columbine there is at least one person that would not have done jail time if he had used a simple form such as the Washington State Private Disposition/Transfer form. He sold a handgun to an underage party.

    It may seem like an infringement to some but can also be viewed as an insurance policy to others.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    CC27, that is a perfect form, and along with TriggerDR's advise, I'd say that this is the way that I think all private purchases should be done.

    Notice I said "I think" not "the law should say". That's the difference between me and liberals. I can agree or disagree with the way you do things, but I'm not going to try to make my opinion law.

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    expvideo wrote:
    CC27, that is a perfect form, and along with TriggerDR's advise, I'd say that this is the way that I think all private purchases should be done.

    Notice I said "I think" not "the law should say". That's the difference between me and liberals. I can agree or disagree with the way you do things, but I'm not going to try to make my opinion law.
    Kind of moves the salesout of the "private sales" catagory doesn't it? It will never be a perfect world, but so far all the gun control laws have done is screw over the honest gun owning citizen. I guess the question "What part of "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" don't you under stand?

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    expvideo wrote:
    CC27, that is a perfect form, and along with TriggerDR's advise, I'd say that this is the way that I think all private purchases should be done.

    Notice I said "I think" not "the law should say". That's the difference between me and liberals. I can agree or disagree with the way you do things, but I'm not going to try to make my opinion law.
    Kind of moves the salesout of the "private sales" catagory doesn't it? It will never be a perfect world, but so far all the gun control laws have done is screw over the honest gun owning citizen. I guess the question "What part of "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" don't you under stand?
    Bear 45/70, what are you talking about? I never suggested infringing on your rights, and I understand the 2nd amendment very clearly. I said that my opinion was that we should all do this. I made it very clear that while I think it's a good idea to document your gun sales for your personal records, I don't think it should be the law, because it's none of the government's business. I'm not trying to infringe on your rights, so don't accuse me of it. Either I misunderstood you, or you owe me an appology. Which is it?

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    expvideo wrote:
    CC27, that is a perfect form, and along with TriggerDR's advise, I'd say that this is the way that I think all private purchases should be done.

    Notice I said "I think" not "the law should say". That's the difference between me and liberals. I can agree or disagree with the way you do things, but I'm not going to try to make my opinion law.
    Kind of moves the salesout of the "private sales" catagory doesn't it? It will never be a perfect world, but so far all the gun control laws have done is screw over the honest gun owning citizen. I guess the question "What part of "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" don't you under stand?
    My form is completely private. It is between 2 private citizens. the government has no idea about it. It's just something nice to have in the file cabinet in case the gun you sold gits used in a murderThen ditched in a dumpster and latter traced back to you. Or if one day you are strolling down a street inTacoma witha gun purchased from a privatesellerand are harassed by T.P.D. They do a check and find out it is hot. At least you have some sort of proof of a legal purchase.

  21. #21
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    Trigger Dr wrote:
    Use the form, put it in an envelope and mail it to your self, registered mail. When it arrives, do not open it. You now have proof, with a date and certification by the USPS, without letting the state know about it. Use BLUE ink, as it will always copy as black. This will prove to be an original.

    Jim

    PLEASE READ THIS AGAIN. With this method, the form is in your personal possession and available if and when you should need it. The blue ink and the sealed dated envelope prove this is an original signature and the date of the form being "REGISTERED" via the postal service. The courts recognize judicial notice that the form was execcuted and delivered in a specified time frame.

    Just down load the BLANK form and fill it out when you sell a firearm

    Jim

  22. #22
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    GunnyG wrote:

    Agreed...

    BTW, did you know that there is, and has been for quite a while, a form for voluntarily recording private sales of handguns?

    "This form may be voluntarily submitted by the seller or transferor to report the sale,transfer of ownership, loss, or other disposition of a pistol or revolver (RCW 9.41)."

    http://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/652004.pdf
    Yes, have known about this form for some time. Thanks for bringing it up.

    Steve

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    edit: removed, uncalled for comment.

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