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Coming to MI for work

who_dat

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vmaxanarchist wrote:
who_dat wrote:
vmaxanarchist wrote:
who_dat wrote:
rsudrick wrote:
Hey everyone, quick question for you guys... I am criminal fraud investigator and work all over the US. I have a few CCW permits but live in IL for now. I am coming to MI for work this week and was wondering about your open carry laws. Since I am not a resident of any states that I hold ccw's fro MI will not honor them. So what are the laws on non resident open carry in detroit area?? any help would be great. Thanks
Michigan is known for it's Concealed reciprocity. They recognize every state's concealed permit. If you have a permanent permit, meaning not temporary or a non-resident permit from a state other than your state of residence, it will be good in Michigan for the duration of your visit providing you follow Michigan's laws.
I you had read the OP post carefully, you would have realised he has only non-resident permits. He can't get a resident permit in Illinois like me. Michigan does not recognize non-resident permits for concealed carry. His only option to carryin MI is open carry on foot and unloading and encasing in a vehicle.
I read it very carefully, that's why I answered the way I did. Michigan also DOES NOT allow open carry for non-residents without a CPL, so he would be out of luck without the permanent resident CPL from his state of residence.:cuss:
My previous posts point out that open carry on foot and encased and unloaded in a car is legal for an out of stater with a non-resident permit. Also they are exempt from the off-limits list like anyone with a permit for open carry, except school zones.

And my post points out that you are wrong. First, without a PERMANENT CPL from his HOME state, one may NOT OC in Michigan. Second, one is NOT exempt from pistol free zones with a CPL. There is a seperate list of zones for CPL and OC. The lists are similar in content but different in remedy. A CPL holder will be trespassing the first time he offends, the OC person will be guilty of a misdemeanor.

An out of stater may not even bring a gun into Michigan without a PERMANENT CPl unless he is carrying it THROUGH the state to another state for a lawful purpose.:banghead:
 

vmaxanarchist

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who_dat wrote:
vmaxanarchist wrote:
who_dat wrote:
vmaxanarchist wrote:
who_dat wrote:
rsudrick wrote:
Hey everyone, quick question for you guys... I am criminal fraud investigator and work all over the US. I have a few CCW permits but live in IL for now. I am coming to MI for work this week and was wondering about your open carry laws. Since I am not a resident of any states that I hold ccw's fro MI will not honor them. So what are the laws on non resident open carry in detroit area?? any help would be great. Thanks
Michigan is known for it's Concealed reciprocity. They recognize every state's concealed permit. If you have a permanent permit, meaning not temporary or a non-resident permit from a state other than your state of residence, it will be good in Michigan for the duration of your visit providing you follow Michigan's laws.
I you had read the OP post carefully, you would have realised he has only non-resident permits. He can't get a resident permit in Illinois like me. Michigan does not recognize non-resident permits for concealed carry. His only option to carryin MI is open carry on foot and unloading and encasing in a vehicle.
I read it very carefully, that's why I answered the way I did. Michigan also DOES NOT allow open carry for non-residents without a CPL, so he would be out of luck without the permanent resident CPL from his state of residence.:cuss:
My previous posts point out that open carry on foot and encased and unloaded in a car is legal for an out of stater with a non-resident permit. Also they are exempt from the off-limits list like anyone with a permit for open carry, except school zones.

And my post points out that you are wrong. First, without a PERMANENT CPL from his HOME state, one may NOT OC in Michigan. Second, one is NOT exempt from pistol free zones with a CPL. There is a seperate list of zones for CPL and OC. The lists are similar in content but different in remedy. A CPL holder will be trespassing the first time he offends, the OC person will be guilty of a misdemeanor.

An out of stater may not even bring a gun into Michigan without a PERMANENT CPl unless he is carrying it THROUGH the state to another state for a lawful purpose.:banghead:
Read my previous posts, in them I post the actual law. Thetwo laws that do notallow an out of stater to have a pistol in Michigan, a person with a concealed carry permit from any state is exempt from. There is no mention of the permitbeing from his own state (they also have to be a U.S. citizen). The law that only recognizes a permit from a persons home state is the concealed carry law. If you are not concealing or carrying loaded and/or uncased in a vehicle then it doesn't matter.
Thus with a non-resident permit from Utah,I can open carry on foot because I can be in legal possession of it. Also I can transport unloaded and encased or in the trunk of a vehicle with a lawful purpose. Just like someone from Michigan who does not have a CPL but has a permit to purchase, carry, and transport and a safety inspection. Because I am exempt from those two laws.
Thepistol free zones law that applies to OChas an exemption for anyone with a CC permit from any state. Again there is no mention that it has to be from their home state. Thus I am exempt from the OC off-limits list. This also applies to anyone with a MI CPL if they are open carrying. Theoff-limits list for CConly applies if carrying concealed,read the law. The only law that I don't have an exemption from for OC is the federal school zone law, but so is anyone from out of state that doesn't have a permit from Michigan. Considering MI does not issue non-resident permits that means any out of stater.:banghead:
 

who_dat

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I stand by my comments and I say again...you are so very wrong. Go to Michigan State Police website...click on firearms laws...Search Legal Updates, being careful to type it with captal L and E, and use the plural on updates, you should be at Archived Legal Updates. Go through the updates looking for the keywords Pistol Free Zones...Non-resident carry...Cpl pistol free...Open Carry...or whatever floats your boat.

One more time...non-residents without a home state issued cpl cannot bring a gun into Michigan other than to transport it across the state. You must have a permanent resident cpl from your home state to carry in any manner in Michigan.

Apologies will be accepted anytime. Oh, yeah, be sure you find BOTH pistol free zones. The word "exempt" in the CPL version does not exempt you from the open carry version. Read it and weep.

Here's the first. This says no gun for non-resident without a cpl:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/Legal_Updates_185809_7.pdf

Here's the second: (Note that this is a different PFZ for CPL holders only.)

[font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][size="+1"]Pistol Free Areas[/size][/font] [font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][size="-1"] [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Individuals licensed to carry a concealed pistol by Michigan or another state are prohibited from carrying a concealed pistol on the following premises:[/font]

(Edit: Note that the wording here is "Individuals licensed to carry a concealed pistol...)
  1. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian
    [/font]
  2. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.
    [/font]
  3. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Sports arena or stadium
    [/font]
  4. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]A tavern where the primary source of income is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass consumed on the premises
    [/font]
  5. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official allows concealed weapons
    [/font]
  6. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more
    [/font]
  7. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]A hospital
    [/font]
  8. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university
    [/font]
  9. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]ACasino

    [/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica"]"Premises" does not include the parking areas of the places listed above in 1 through 8.

[/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica"]A pistol is subject to immediate seizure if the CCW permit holder is carrying a pistol in a "pistol free" area. The following penalties may also be imposed:[/font]
  • [font="Arial, Helvetica"]First offense: State Civil Infraction, $500 fine, CCW permit suspended 6 months[/font] [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Second offense: 90-day misdemeanor, $1000 fine, CCW permit revoked[/font] [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Third and subsequent offenses: 4-year felony, $5000 fine, CCW permit revoked[/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica"]Furthermore, effective March 29, 2001, per Administrative Order 2001-1 of the Michigan Supreme Court:[/font]
  • [font="Arial, Helvetica"]"Weapons are not permitted in any courtroom, office, or other space used for official court business or by judicial employees unless the chief judge or other person designated by the chief judge has given prior approval consistent with the court's written policy.[/font]
Number three[/size][/font]
[font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][size="+1"]Reciprocity [/size][/font] [font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][size="-1"][font="Arial, Helvetica"]Michigan resident with Michigan CCW permit wishing to carry a concealed pistol in another state:[/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]If you are a Michigan resident with a Michigan concealed pistol permit and want to carry your pistol into another state you are strongly encouraged to contact that state for information on their concealed pistol law. A Michigan CCW permit does not supersede any other state’s law or CCW requirements.
[/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]Non-residents of Michigan wishing to carry a concealed pistol in Michigan:[/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]If you are a non-resident of Michigan with a valid concealed pistol permit from your home state, Michigan will recognize your permit. However, you must carry in conformance with any and all restrictions appearing on the permit. You are subject to Michigan’s concealed pistol law including but not limited to restrictions on where a concealed pistol may be carried. Please review the information provided on this website for further information.[/font]

Please visittheDepartment of Attorney General's web sitefor concealed weapons overview and related information.
[/size][/font]

[font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][size="-1"]So you see, a CPL only gets you into the section of the law affecting CPL's, it does not make you exempt from anything other than that which does not apply to you. The Pistol Free Zones you read were the law as applied to an Open Carrier, providing for a misdemeanor charge if violated. The exemption for a CPL holder is only from the misdemeanor. The postings you made were indeed MI law, but they were not complete. In my case, I wrote to the MSP for clarification, and this is what I'm leading you to.


Did I miss anything?
[/size][/font]
 

vmaxanarchist

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who_dat wrote:
I stand by my comments and I say again...you are so very wrong. Go to Michigan State Police website...click on firearms laws...Search Legal Updates, being careful to type it with captal L and E, and use the plural on updates, Go through the updates looking for the keywords Pistol Free Zones...Non-resident carry...Cpl pistol free...Open Carry...or whatever floats your boat.

One more time...non-residents without a home state issued cpl cannot bring a gun into Michigan other than to transport it across the state. You must have a permanent resident cpl from your home state to carry in any manner in Michigan.

Apologies will be accepted anytime. Oh, yeah, be sure you find BOTH pistol free zones. The word "exempt" in the CPL version does not exempt you from the open carry version. Read it and weep.

Here's the first. This says no gun for non-resident without a cpl:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/Legal_Updates_185809_7.pdf
I have read the MSP post it is inaccurate and misleading. This is why they are called law enforcement officers not lawyers. Often they believe it's their job to arrest and let the prosecutors sort the law out later.

Quote from the MSP website: "Other exceptions to the registration requirement can be found in MCL 28.432. That statute includes an exception for concealed pistol license holders from other states." They post the law's number here, but here they make an inaccurate conclusion: "The bottom line under these statutes is that persons from other states may not bring a pistol into Michigan unless they are a police officer or hold a CPL from their state of residence. There are no exceptions for persons who wish to bring a pistol to Michigan to hunt or target shoot".

If you don't care to read my previous post here are the excerpts from the law that apply. From MCL 28.432:

"28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422 and 28.429; citation as “Janet Kukuk act”.

Sec. 12.

(1) Sections 2 and 9 do not apply to any of the following

(f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state."

Note in this exemption there is no mention that the holder of the CPL from another state must be a resdent of said state. Just that he needs to be a U.S. citzen.

Here is the pertinent quote for the pistol free zones law:

"750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty





[align=left]
(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
"[/align]


[align=left]Note again there is no mention that the permit be from the persons home state. Also this exemption clearly applies to MI CPL holders.[/align]


[align=left]Here is the pertinent quote from the concealed pistol free zones law:[/align]


[align=left]"28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation. [/align]


Sec. 5o.

(1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:"

Note it says concealed pistol. Thus this law does not apply to a unconcealed pistol.

Finally the law that your probably thinking of that requires the permit from the persons home state is the concealed carry law. Here is the concealed weapons law:

"750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.



Sec. 227.

(1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.

(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

(3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00."

Here is the pertinent quote from the exceptions to the above law:

"750.231a Exceptions to § 750.227(2); definitions.



Sec. 231a.

(1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:

(a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license."

Here is where the law requires the permit to be from his own state of residence. However this only applies to "concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person". It does not apply to carrying unconcealed on foot or in a vehicle unloaded and encased or in the trunk with a lawful purpose with the exception to this law made by 750.231a.The same as any resident of MI who has a permit to purchase, carry and transport and a safety inspection but who does not have a CPL. However like a person from MI who has a CPL I can carry into "pistol free zones" with my non-resident permit as long as I carrying unconcealed.

If you think that I am still wrong then post where the law says different. Not where the MSP or any other LEO misinterpret it. Apologies will be accepted anytime.
 

vmaxanarchist

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"Did I miss anything?" Yes you did. Obviously you missed this important wording.

"Individuals licensed to carry a concealed pistol by Michigan or another state are prohibited from carrying a concealed pistol on the following premises:"

In case you didn't catch it the wording here is "carrying a concealed pistol"this does not apply to carrying a unconcealed pistol.
 

who_dat

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So you are saying you did not find the other pistol free zone...the one for non-CPL holders? There are two, and they are distinctly different.

Go to MSP site, firearms section, Firearms Laws for MI and look up Penal Code, 1931, PA 328, MCL 759.1Sec 234. OR go to Ag Opinion 7113 for the same section of law. Both Pistol Free Zones are quoted in the same AG opinion. You may see the difference, but you have to realize both applyl

I love when out of staters interpret our laws. Try this guy if you have any questions:
Sgt. Thomas Deasy
Michigan State Police
Executive Resource Section
714 S. Harrison Rd.
East Lansing, MI 48823
(517) 336-6441
 

vmaxanarchist

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who_dat wrote:
So you are saying you did not find the other pistol free zone...the one for non-CPL holders? There are two, and they are distinctly different.

I love when out of staters interpret our laws. Try this guy if you have any questions:
Sgt. Thomas Deasy
Michigan State Police
Executive Resource Section
714 S. Harrison Rd.
East Lansing, MI 48823
(517) 336-6441
Yes I did I posted it is 750.234d.
 

who_dat

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vmaxanarchist wrote:
who_dat wrote:
So you are saying you did not find the other pistol free zone...the one for non-CPL holders? There are two, and they are distinctly different.

I love when out of staters interpret our laws. Try this guy if you have any questions:
Sgt. Thomas Deasy
Michigan State Police
Executive Resource Section
714 S. Harrison Rd.
East Lansing, MI 48823
(517) 336-6441
Yes I did I posted it is 750.234d.
That section is a description of how you may get a purchase permit to go and buy a pistol. Concealed weapons permit holders need only show their permit. To get a permit you must be a citizen of the State of Michigan for 6 months. Statute 28.425b(7)(b)
Also, 12a(f) on p. 14 of PA 2000-PA-0381 very specifically says the requirements to obtain a license to carry a pistol do not apply to a resident of another state who is licensed by that state to carry a pistol.

It is important to not get OP, CPL, Purchase Permit, Safety Inspection (Registration), mixed up. Even though it may seem to be exempt in one, by the time you get to the one that applies, it is very clear.

So the end result is a non resident may not open carry in Michigan. He may not even bring a gun into Michigan for any reason without a CPL. An individual with an out of state concealed permit may carry concealed if and only if his home state issued his cpl.
 

vmaxanarchist

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Read this opinion on unconcealed carry in a pistol free zoneby the MI attorney general.

http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/2000s/op10188.htm

This opinion was that a unpaid volunteer school guard can carry unconcealed in a school as long as he had a CPL. As I have shown before this would also apply to me with a non-resident permit from UT. The only reason I couldn't carry in a school is the federal gun free schools law that is currently being interpreted that only a license from the state in which the school resides is valid as an exemption. However this law has not been tested in court since a previous very similar law was ruled unconstitutional by SCOTUS.

The reason why as a resident of IL I'm interpreting MI law is that I can't get a resident permit from IL. Someday I might want to travel to MI. So, I read the law carefully to see if I can OC there.

I amnot saying that I wouldn't get arrested. This site is full of stories of LEO's either being unsure of the law or not liking it and arresting. So, the prosecutors can sort it out later. I am saying that if Iwas arrested. I would win in court, and be able to sue for wrongful arrest if I informed the LEO on the law.
 

vmaxanarchist

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who_dat wrote:
vmaxanarchist wrote:
who_dat wrote:
So you are saying you did not find the other pistol free zone...the one for non-CPL holders? There are two, and they are distinctly different.

I love when out of staters interpret our laws. Try this guy if you have any questions:
Sgt. Thomas Deasy
Michigan State Police
Executive Resource Section
714 S. Harrison Rd.
East Lansing, MI 48823
(517) 336-6441
Yes I did I posted it is 750.234d.
That section is a description of how you may get a purchase permit to go and buy a pistol. Concealed weapons permit holders need only show their permit. To get a permit you must be a citizen of the State of Michigan for 6 months. Statute 28.425b(7)(b)
Also, 12a(f) on p. 14 of PA 2000-PA-0381 very specifically says the requirements to obtain a license to carry a pistol do not apply to a resident of another state who is licensed by that state to carry a pistol.

It is important to not get OP, CPL, Purchase Permit, Safety Inspection (Registration), mixed up. Even though it may seem to be exempt in one, by the time you get to the one that applies, it is very clear.

So the end result is a non resident may not open carry in Michigan. He may not even bring a gun into Michigan for any reason without a CPL. An individual with an out of state concealed permit may carry concealed if and only if his home state issued his cpl.
Huh? This is 750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
It is the list of off limits places to a non-possessor of a MI CPL or one from another state.
The purchase permit is also a permit to carry (READ OPEN CARRY since concealed carry is otherwise illegal without a CPL ) and transport a pistol. It is the reason why the MSP states that a non-resident of MI can not have a pistol. However they law clearly states that that a U.S. citizen having a permit from any state is exempt from this law and the law for the safety inspection too.
 

who_dat

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Good luck with that. Try the phone call to Deasy, who, by statute can interpret these laws and advise the MSP to enforce them. I still think you are not going through to the right spot. A non resident can come to Michigan and purchase a pistol, and transport it legally back home, but can not open carry. Sorry. Out.
 
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