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Thread: negative encounter at the Beacon Mall Giant, Alexandria

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    Tonight while shopping with my wife at the Giant at Beacon Mall, AlexandriaI heard a voice behind me, growing louder as it approached,asking excuse me three times before I turned around. It was a short, African-American woman with a name tag on who I've seen countless times before. I think she's one of the managers.I turned to acknowledge her when she asked to see my ID. I asked,"why?" She answered," because you have a gun." I replied that I wasn't going to show her my ID and explainedthat I wasn't breaking the law. She said she was going to call the police. I said,"you can do that." We continued to shop approximately 15 minutes longer before we paid and left. While purchasing my beerI volunteered my ID and the clerk waved me on stating that she knew who I was. I said thank you and we walked to the parking lot,patiently put our groceries in the car and left without worrying about a police encounter. I was in no hurry to leave, but wasn't going to waste my time waiting for the police.In the days ahead I'll stop in to get her info to lodge a formal complaint to the home office. In the mean time if your in the area OC'ing stop in for some groceries.

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    if she asked you to leave at that pt you were trespassing.


    you should have a recorder with you so that it shows she didn't specifically ask you to leave

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    I've never shopped there. Might have to stop in soon. I've carried all over that area and in neighboring stores.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Hey yankee,

    Having some experience in retail,you have to be told in the presence of an officer not to return. There has to be a valid reason for this to occur. You can't be banned from a store because the manager doesn't like what you're legally doing.I know thatany proprietor of alcoholcan refusea sale for any reason and an operator of an on-premise liquor license can ask you to disarm or leave. However this has no precedence in this case.If you have anyevidence for your argument let me know. My knowledge comes frommany yearsmanaging state liquor stores and dealing with shoplifters. You had to obtain a judges order to ban someone from a store and you had to have a damn good reason to.

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    Placementvs.Calibur wrote:
    Hey yankee,

    Having some experience in retail,you have to be told in the presence of an officer not to return. There has to be a valid reason for this to occur. You can't be banned from a store because the manager doesn't like what you're legally doing.I know thatany proprietor of alcoholcan refusea sale for any reason and an operator of an on-premise liquor license can ask you to disarm or leave. However this has no precedence in this case.If you have anyevidence for your argument let me know. My knowledge comes frommany yearsmanaging state liquor stores and dealing with shoplifters. You had to obtain a judges order to ban someone from a store and you had to have a damn good reason to.
    Firstly a person can ask you to leave a privately owned property and you must comply or you will be trespassing. Just because you are not doing anything illegal is not reason to be able to stay there. I'm sure you wouldn't like if I walked up into your house and idled there and you weren't able to remove me because I wasn't breaking the law. You base this theory on the fact that you have worked at stores before. You have worked at a STATE run liquor store, which is STATE property. In that specific case the manager can't tell you to leave because they have no authority to because again this is STATE property. This is completely different from the idea of private property. If someone asks you to leave their property, you don't, and the cops show up, you will get arrested.

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    Placementvs.Calibur wrote:
    Hey yankee,

    Having some experience in retail,you have to be told in the presence of an officer not to return. There has to be a valid reason for this to occur. You can't be banned from a store because the manager doesn't like what you're legally doing.I know thatany proprietor of alcoholcan refusea sale for any reason and an operator of an on-premise liquor license can ask you to disarm or leave. However this has no precedence in this case.If you have anyevidence for your argument let me know. My knowledge comes frommany yearsmanaging state liquor stores and dealing with shoplifters. You had to obtain a judges order to ban someone from a store and you had to have a damn good reason to.
    This jogs a memory. I recall something about a Tresspass notice which has to be filled out and signed by an officer, after the owner/manager of a store calls the poll*eece, signed by the manager and then given to the target. At that point the target has been "no tresspased." At any point AFTER that they can be locked up if they come back. I also think there is a time frame for how long the No tresspased is valid.

    now for the rub. . .I can't remember if that was for Kansas (my youth) or Virginia (My adulthood)

    ETA: Musta been Kansas. Here is the VA cite:

    If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by such persons or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen, or if any person, whether he is the owner, tenant or otherwise entitled to the use of such land, building or premises, goes upon, or remains upon such land, building or premises after having been prohibited from doing so by a court of competent jurisdiction by an order issued pursuant to §§ 16.1-253, 16.1-253.1, 16.1-253.4, 16.1-278.2 through 16.1-278.6, 16.1-278.8, 16.1-278.14, 16.1-278.15, 16.1-279.1, 19.2-152.8, 19.2-152.9 or § 19.2-152.10 or an ex parte order issued pursuant to § 20-103, and after having been served with such order, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. This section shall not be construed to affect in any way the provisions of §§ 18.2-13218.2-136. through
    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when youre serious and when youre being sarcastic. Abraham Lincoln

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    Placementvs.Calibur wrote:
    Hey yankee,

    Having some experience in retail,you have to be told in the presence of an officer not to return. There has to be a valid reason for this to occur. You can't be banned from a store because the manager doesn't like what you're legally doing.I know thatany proprietor of alcoholcan refusea sale for any reason and an operator of an on-premise liquor license can ask you to disarm or leave. However this has no precedence in this case.If you have anyevidence for your argument let me know. My knowledge comes frommany yearsmanaging state liquor stores and dealing with shoplifters. You had to obtain a judges order to ban someone from a store and you had to have a damn good reason to.

    That was likely your company's corporate policy on issuing trespasses. As an employee of that company you should get an official police report of the incident and you shouldn't trespass a customer for no reason (it's bad for business).

    Like hinch said though, you can be ordered to leave at any given point by the owner of private property to leave and if you fail to comply you will be trespassing.

    The reason you can play hardball with managers at places like Giant or Walmart is because they've got corporate watchdogs making sure they comply with policy. I'd be willing to bet most corporate managers out there don't know corporate policy rules regarding firearms, as they apply to customers. They might know firearm rules as they apply to employees.

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    That's unfortunate to hear pvc... I OC into the Giant on Duke St. (right by the Lone Star, Panera, and Baja Fresh) almost EVERY week. Never a problem.
    -Unrequited

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    I don't want to play semantics because I know some retail spaces are owned and some are leased. I will reiterate what I said earlier. No one person of an owned /leasedretail spacecan claim that you're trespassing in a public space unless otherwise posted or stated in front of a law enforcement official. A manager of a store, state owned or whatever, can't single out an individual without just cause. Using private property is a bad example. No onemay loiter on your lawn nor can they trespass if posted properly. Granted nobody can hang out on your front lawn but they can approach your house knock on your door and you can order them to leave. If they don't you can call the police and the police can ask them to leave, but if they haven't caused harm to body, property or comply with the police orderthey can't get arrested barring they have no outstanding warrants. Also, not all state store are in spaces owned by the state. Perhaps a LEO could clarify this situation.

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    Let me clarify one thing. The police can arrest you whenever they want wether the charges stick is another thing.:X

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    The only thing I can suggest is next time you might have more lucksmoothly steering the conversation in a direction to your advantage:

    "My ID? Good heavens, what I have I done?"

    "You have a gun."

    "Why yes, citizens are allowed to possess the means to self-defense in Virginia. Etc. Etc."

    Also, please take it thoughtfully on the complaint to Giant. I'd rather not lose the privilege to carry in Giants in this area. I'm not a big fan of Safeway and I have no Shoppers Food Warehouses nearby. There is no reason at all their corporate attorneys can't decide it would be safer to make anti-gun policy and post No Guns signs. Ifyou have to say something, maybe turn it into a compliment that "suggests" a better approach:

    "Assistant Manager Betsy should be complimented for taking personal responsibility to look into whether I was a robber (or whatever). I'm sure she just didn't realize citizens in VA are allowed to possess the means to self-defense. Fairfax County issued over 1600 CHP's last year and is on track for over 1900 this year. I'm sure she didn't know this.Please pass along my compliments to her and....etc. etc. etc."

    Now, when "Betsy" gets that, whatcan shesay?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Placementvs.Calibur wrote:
    I don't want to play semantics because I know some retail spaces are owned and some are leased. I will reiterate what I said earlier. No one person of an owned /leasedretail spacecan claim that you're trespassing in a public space unless otherwise posted or stated in front of a law enforcement official. A manager of a store, state owned or whatever, can't single out an individual without just cause. Using private property is a bad example. No onemay loiter on your lawn nor can they trespass if posted properly. Granted nobody can hang out on your front lawn but they can approach your house knock on your door and you can order them to leave. If they don't you can call the police and the police can ask them to leave, but if they haven't caused harm to body, property or comply with the police orderthey can't get arrested barring they have no outstanding warrants. Also, not all state store are in spaces owned by the state. Perhaps a LEO could clarify this situation.
    I think you need to read the code. Management is " lawfully in charge thereof". Under legal thought, a management representative is presumed to speak on behalf of the owner, all other things being equal.

    Stores are NOT "public" spaces, in the sense of owned by or under the control of the public
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    OK. Wait a minute here. The point has been missed and we are talking hypothetical. The manager didn't ask meto leave and if she had I wouldn't. I would have waited for the policeto explain my position with my wife as mywitness, thencomplied with any police order. If you are ever in a situation were someone tells you to leave a store and you don't,then the police deem no reason was warranted but ask you to leave then you leave. Whether or not you could be convicted of trespassing next time you enter the store is arguable in the court of law. Again you can't be banned for no apparent reason, that could be construded as discrimination. It would then be in your best interest to take it to someone higher than the manager. A voice recorder is always a good idea, however I don't need one. I'm a law bidding citizen and don't need to carry my keys, wallet, phone(with video), knife, gun and oh yeah my voice recorder. There was a recent situation with a rogue cop caught on tape and that was great. Next, I was asked to produce an ID, Iasked why, refused,then explained that carrying a gun openly isn't against the law. She said she was going to call the police. If she did they sure as hell took there time responding to an armed man in a grocery store. My point in all of this is you shouldn't be afraid of the police. Although they can pretty much do whatever they want most of them will listen to reason and offer a solution. Yes Tess, managers are in charge of the store and property but hold no water in making lawless judgements based on their own fear. (Manager)

    Thank you for your support, sheesh. (Me)


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    Placementvs.Calibur wrote:
    OK. Wait a minute here. The point has been missed and we are talking hypothetical. The manager didn't ask meto leave and if she had I wouldn't. I would have waited for the policeto explain my position with my wife as mywitness, thencomplied with any police order. If you are ever in a situation were someone tells you to leave a store and you don't,then the police deem no reason was warranted but ask you to leave then you leave. Whether or not you could be convicted of trespassing next time you enter the store is arguable in the court of law. Again you can't be banned for no apparent reason, that could be construded as discrimination. It would then be in your best interest to take it to someone higher than the manager. A voice recorder is always a good idea, however I don't need one. I'm a law bidding citizen and don't need to carry my keys, wallet, phone(with video), knife, gun and oh yeah my voice recorder. There was a recent situation with a rogue cop caught on tape and that was great. Next, I was asked to produce an ID, Iasked why, refused,then explained that carrying a gun openly isn't against the law. She said she was going to call the police. If she did they sure as hell took there time responding to an armed man in a grocery store. My point in all of this is you shouldn't be afraid of the police. Although they can pretty much do whatever they want most of them will listen to reason and offer a solution. Yes Tess, managers are in charge of the store and property but hold no water in making lawless judgements based on their own fear. (Manager)

    Thank you for your support, sheesh. (Me)
    You won't be charged with trespass the next time, you will be charged with trespass on the spot! If a store manager tells you to leave, you damn well better leave. I don't care if you think you've done nothing wrong or not. You are on THEIR property and they can order you to leave, whether you like it or not. Ever heard of "we reserve the right to refuse service"? Discrimination laws only concern things that you have no control over, such as skin color, physical impairment, age, etc. Unless you were born with a .45 grafted to your hip, you're out of luck on playing the discrimination card.

    It's one thing to assert your rights, but you have clearly crossed the line into violation of other people's rights, and you will wind up paying for it sooner or later.

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    Placementvs.Calibur wrote:
    OK. Wait a minute here. The point has been missed and we are talking hypothetical. The manager didn't ask meto leave and if she had I wouldn't. I would have waited for the policeto explain my position with my wife as mywitness, thencomplied with any police order. If you are ever in a situation were someone tells you to leave a store and you don't,then the police deem no reason was warranted but ask you to leave then you leave. Whether or not you could be convicted of trespassing next time you enter the store is arguable in the court of law.
    Incorrect. If police are summoned to a location where an individual has been asked to leave and has refused (or committed another form of trespass), the person in control of the property may file a Trespass Notice against the trespasser. Once a Trespass Notice has been filed, if the person is found to have violated that notice - either being found on-premise by an officer, or recorded on video - they are INARGUABLY in violation of the trespass laws.

    Trespass Notices are not applicable in situations where both parties have equal right to be present in a given location.

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Placementvs.Calibur wrote:
    I don't want to play semantics because I know some retail spaces are owned and some are leased. I will reiterate what I said earlier. No one person of an owned /leasedretail spacecan claim that you're trespassing in a public space unless otherwise posted or stated in front of a law enforcement official. A manager of a store, state owned or whatever, can't single out an individual without just cause. Using private property is a bad example. No onemay loiter on your lawn nor can they trespass if posted properly. Granted nobody can hang out on your front lawn but they can approach your house knock on your door and you can order them to leave. If they don't you can call the police and the police can ask them to leave, but if they haven't caused harm to body, property or comply with the police orderthey can't get arrested barring they have no outstanding warrants. Also, not all state store are in spaces owned by the state. Perhaps a LEO could clarify this situation.
    I was not responding to your OP. I was responding to this; I apologize for not being clear. You are presenting things as facts that are not true.

    Right. You weren't asked to leave. Understand that. You have asserted other mistaken statements, however.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    If you are told by ANYONE in charge of the property.. manager, owner, security guard, or any other agent.... to leave and you refuse.. YOU ARE TRESPASSING!!!

    You do NOT need to first be told in front of the police. This works to get you ticketed immediately if you continue to stay. The person in charge can always go get a warrant for you later.




    § 18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties.

    If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by such persons or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen, or if any person, whether he is the owner, tenant or otherwise entitled to the use of such land, building or premises, goes upon, or remains upon such land, building or premises after having been prohibited from doing so by a court of competent jurisdiction by an order issued pursuant to §§ 16.1-253, 16.1-253.1, 16.1-253.4, 16.1-278.2 through 16.1-278.6, 16.1-278.8, 16.1-278.14, 16.1-278.15, 16.1-279.1, 19.2-152.8, 19.2-152.9 or § 19.2-152.10 or an ex parte order issued pursuant to § 20-103, and after having been served with such order, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. This section shall not be construed to affect in any way the provisions of §§ 18.2-132 through 18.2-136.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    If you are told by ANYONE in charge of the property.. manager, owner, security guard, or any other agent.... to leave and you refuse.. YOU ARE TRESPASSING!!!
    Well, I agree with you generally, but a mere security guard? Like a renta cop at a mall? Come on!

    I think that this person is unlikley to be "person lawfully in charge thereofthereof" within the meaning of your code cite" - asking to speak to a "person lawfully in charge thereofthereof" would seem a pretty reasonable request in some circumstances.

    Anyway, I have OCed at this Giant without a hitch in the past.

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    Placementvs.Calibur wrote:
    Tonight while shopping with my wife at the Giant at Beacon Mall, AlexandriaI heard a voice behind me, growing louder as it approached,asking excuse me three times before I turned around. It was a short, African-American woman with a name tag on who I've seen countless times before. I think she's one of the managers.I turned to acknowledge her when she asked to see my ID. I asked,"why?" She answered," because you have a gun." I replied that I wasn't going to show her my ID and explainedthat I wasn't breaking the law. She said she was going to call the police. I said,"you can do that." We continued to shop approximately 15 minutes longer before we paid and left. While purchasing my beerI volunteered my ID and the clerk waved me on stating that she knew who I was. I said thank you and we walked to the parking lot,patiently put our groceries in the car and left without worrying about a police encounter. I was in no hurry to leave, but wasn't going to waste my time waiting for the police.In the days ahead I'll stop in to get her info to lodge a formal complaint to the home office. In the mean time if your in the area OC'ing stop in for some groceries.
    I think you did fine - the manager did not order you to leave, and you went about your business giving Giant business and left forthwith without hanging around and causing a stir.

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    If a "renta cop" at a mall is "unlikley to be "person lawfully in charge thereofthereof"....then who is?

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    yankees98a wrote:
    if she asked you to leave at that pt you were trespassing.

    Since this is the FIRST reply, and this is where the thread went south. I must ask.

    where in the OP's story did he mention being asked to leave?


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    Judges in Fairfax county are tossing trespass, open container, and drunk in public charges like never before. When I lived in Centreville (2 years ago) it got to the point where the police would just tell trespassers to leave (kind of beg them to leave). Drunks wondering around the lot that lived in the complex were just ignored, as long as their id came back to the complex. One officer told me that several of the judges will lecture the officer for wasting the courts time withtresspass arrest.

    I think a court will have a hard time convicting you if you were in a store pushing a grocery cart loaded with purchases. There is no intent to trespass in a place of public accommodation. If the the business is posted NO GUN ETC. that would probably be different. I have yet to hear of one person convicted of trespassing in a unposted establishment for open carrying.

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    Thats because NOBODY would be convicted of trespassing in a unposted establishment for open carrying. They would be convicted of trespassing for not leaving the premises when told to:what:

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    Hef wrote:
    Incorrect. If police are summoned to a location where an individual has been asked to leave and has refused (or committed another form of trespass), the person in control of the property may file a Trespass Notice against the trespasser. Once a Trespass Notice has been filed, if the person is found to have violated that notice - either being found on-premise by an officer, or recorded on video - they are INARGUABLY in violation of the trespass laws.

    Trespass Notices are not applicable in situations where both parties have equal right to be present in a given location.
    +1

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    bayboy42 wrote:
    Thats because NOBODY would be convicted of trespassing in a unposted establishment for open carrying. They would be convicted of trespassing for not leaving the premises when told to:what:

    My point was that the whole trespass thing is way over blown. It just hasn't happened. Should a person leave sure, will the cops just show up and arrest you and will it result in a conviction . I don't think so. If the establishment is not posted and you are there shopping,the copswould just tell you to leave (after the whole ID check etc.)

    A few years ago I was in criminal court all day when one of our security guards arrested a serial shoplifter. Anyway there were about 7-8 trespass cases, most fromapartmentbuildings on route 1 and in Herndon, the judge dismissed every single case. The courts just aren't buying trespass in a public, place of accommodation unless there are extenuating circumstances.

    I'm not saying you should ignore a business owner, security guard or manager's request to leave, I'm just saying that the whole fear of a trespass charge is exaggerated by some. When a judge is shown state statues and informed that the place is not posted he would more than likely dismiss the charge. If you refuse to leave in the presence of the police after being told to do so by the management, I could see you getting convicted. Even if convicted at trial its a misdemeanor.

    We should always respect the property rights of others, while exerting our rights. It's a definite balancing act.


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