negative encounter at the Beacon Mall Giant, Alexandria

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yankees98a wrote:

if she asked you to leave at that pt you were trespassing.

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Since this is the FIRST reply, and this is where the thread went south. I must ask.

where in the OP's story did he mention being asked to leave?

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Judges in Fairfax county are tossing trespass, open container, and drunk in public charges like never before. When I lived in Centreville (2 years ago) it got to the point where the police would just tell trespassers to leave (kind of beg them to leave). Drunks wondering around the lot that lived in the complex were just ignored, as long as their id came back to the complex. One officer told me that several of the judges will lecture the officer for wasting the courts time withtresspass arrest.

I think a court will have a hard time convicting you if you were in a store pushing a grocery cart loaded with purchases. There is no intent to trespass in a place of public accommodation. If the the business is posted NO GUN ETC. that would probably be different. I have yet to hear of one person convicted of trespassing in a unposted establishment for open carrying.

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Thats because NOBODY would be convicted of trespassing in a unposted establishment for open carrying. They would be convicted of trespassing for not leaving the premises when told to:what:

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Hef wrote:

Incorrect. If police are summoned to a location where an individual has been asked to leave and has refused (or committed another form of trespass), the person in control of the property may file a Trespass Notice against the trespasser. Once a Trespass Notice has been filed, if the person is found to have violated that notice - either being found on-premise by an officer, or recorded on video - they are INARGUABLY in violation of the trespass laws.

Trespass Notices are not applicable in situations where both parties have equal right to be present in a given location.

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+1

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bayboy42 wrote:

Thats because NOBODY would be convicted of trespassing in a unposted establishment for open carrying. They would be convicted of trespassing for not leaving the premises when told to:what:

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My point was that the whole trespass thing is way over blown. It just hasn't happened. Should a person leave sure, will the cops just show up and arrest you and will it result in a conviction . I don't think so. If the establishment is not posted and you are there shopping,the copswould just tell you to leave (after the whole ID check etc.)

A few years ago I was in criminal court all day when one of our security guards arrested a serial shoplifter. Anyway there were about 7-8 trespass cases, most fromapartmentbuildings on route 1 and in Herndon, the judge dismissed every single case. The courts just aren't buying trespass in a public, place of accommodation unless there are extenuating circumstances.

I'm not saying you should ignore a business owner, security guard or manager's request to leave, I'm just saying that the whole fear of a trespass charge is exaggerated by some. When a judge is shown state statues and informed that the place is not posted he would more than likely dismiss the charge. If you refuse to leave in the presence of the police after being told to do so by the management, I could see you getting convicted. Even if convicted at trial its a misdemeanor.

We should always respect the property rights of others, while exerting our rights. It's a definite balancing act.

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Mike wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

If you are told by ANYONE in charge of the property.. manager, owner, security guard, or any other agent.... to leave and you refuse.. YOU ARE TRESPASSING!!!

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Well, I agree with you generally, but a mere security guard? Like a renta cop at a mall? Come on!

I think that this person is unlikley to be "person lawfully in charge thereofthereof" within the meaning of your code cite" - asking to speak to a "person lawfully in charge thereofthereof" would seem a pretty reasonable request in some circumstances.

Anyway, I have OCed at this Giant without a hitch in the past.

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I have told my employees that they can tell anyone they want to get the F out and not return.So they nowhave the authority to do so as granted by me.

The security guard can be given this authority too.

Granted.... the owner who hires him would need to trust his decision to do so. I have known my employees a while and trust them.

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just a guy, with a Glock wrote:

I'm not saying you should ignore a business owner, security guard or manager's request to leave, I'm just saying that the whole fear of a trespass charge is exaggerated by some.

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You shouldn't leave a business after being asked to because you're afraid of the punishment. You should do it because it's the right thing to do.

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I think everybody is overlooking something. We keep posting legalities but when an owner or an owners employee, says get out.....For whatever reason...

It is just common courtesy to leave. We aren't criminals that have to be forced out!

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Yes, common sense is a value. However common sense is often overlooked now. LEO, TESS, others un-named have quoted many points(laws). I respect that. This is a forum for law bidding, gun carrying citizens. I feel that ifI stuck to my guns in any scenario I would have came out the victor. But whatever, people are entitled to there own opinion (intereptation) of the laws. Leo you might recall my chiming in on interpretation of laws, if not "Oh Wells". Right or wrong that's for a judge to decide. I feel I was right and don't care how doubtful others feel , because I can take responsibility for my own actions. I will continue to shop at this Giant no matter what the lawyers/police decide. Armed of course!:quirky

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Thanks PA for your reading comprhension. Seriously, my wife is from PA, thank you for the support. I visited a range inNortheast Philly once with my father in law and had Ia good old time. Naturally the employees at said range were OC'ing. Thanks again.

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If you open carry and you are asked to leave you LEAVE. You don't say 'there is no sign' or make an issue out of it. This is what the VCDL advises.

Pointing out there is no sign may result in a sign.

Taking it to higher ups may result in a ban.

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just dont waste your breath on teaching these illerate employees of giant. I would tell them, well, the way I am carrying I am 100% legal, certified and fortified. If you want to waste your time be my guest, i got work to do. Smile and leave. These employees never went through background test the way they do for CHP holders.

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bayboy42 wrote:

Thats because NOBODY would be convicted of trespassing in a unposted establishment for open carrying. They would be convicted of trespassing for not leaving the premises when told to:what:

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besides they can just say your tresspassing, they have to have sign posted inside the building as well. Since its open to public, and your intentions are to buy and leave and u were confronted voluntarlly u can refuse to answer and go defensive. Keep your cool while u do that.

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Everyone, I must be missing something (forgive me).........I was under the impression that since VA is a "Pre-empt" state, it does not matter about the signs being posted......is that not correct? I understand about the trespassing laws and all, but, I am under the impression that if you are OCing, and, you enter a place that has a posted sign,as long asno one ask you to leave, youcan stay; no laws have been broken (although, if I saw a sign posted, I would comply). Please set me straight, if necessary.

2nd Amendment........Use it........Or, lose it!!:X

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Smurfologist wrote:

Everyone, I must be missing something (forgive me).........I was under the impression that since VA is a "Pre-empt" state, it does not matter about the signs being posted......is that not correct? I understand about the trespassing laws and all, but, I am under the impression that if you are OCing, and, you enter a place that has a posted sign,as long asno one ask you to leave, youcan stay; no laws have been broken (although, if I saw a sign posted, I would comply). Please set me straight, if necessary.

2nd Amendment........Use it........Or, lose it!!:X

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I would argue that you are correct, except ... if a place has a conspicuously posted sign, you can be presumed to have been given notice of the property owner's wishes.

This assumes private property - even if that property exists for public use, like a store.

You would only be charged with trespassing, nothing more serious, if I understand correctly, but you would presumed already to have been warned.

Pre-emption means localities cannot pass restrictions more stringent than those of the Commonwealth as a whole. Does not apply to private property.

Now maybe one of the lawyers can correct me if I'm mis-interpreting, but that's the way I understand it.

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Tess wrote:

Smurfologist wrote:

Everyone, I must be missing something (forgive me).........I was under the impression that since VA is a "Pre-empt" state, it does not matter about the signs being posted......is that not correct? I understand about the trespassing laws and all, but, I am under the impression that if you are OCing, and, you enter a place that has a posted sign,as long asno one ask you to leave, youcan stay; no laws have been broken (although, if I saw a sign posted, I would comply). Please set me straight, if necessary.

2nd Amendment........Use it........Or, lose it!!:X

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I would argue that you are correct, except ... if a place has a conspicuously posted sign, you can be presumed to have been given notice of the property owner's wishes.

This assumes private property - even if that property exists for public use, like a store.

You would only be charged with trespassing, nothing more serious, if I understand correctly, but you would presumed already to have been warned.

Pre-emption means localities cannot pass restrictions more stringent than those of the Commonwealth as a whole. Does not apply to private property.

Now maybe one of the lawyers can correct me if I'm mis-interpreting, but that's the way I understand it.

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Thanks Tess!! Your explanation makes total sense to me. However, most places have inconspicuous signs that you really have to look for (i.e. Wachovia, AMC Theaters, some malls, just to name a few). Like I said, if I do see a sign, I concur with it. But, what you have explained, makes total sense. Stay safe!!

2nd Amendment.......Use it.........Or, lose it!!:X

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just a guy, with a Glock


I cannot send you a PM!Because you have a comma in your name... it cannot go out.

PM with with an alternate point of contact.

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One time in my life I try and use proper punctuation and it gets me. :banghead:

I always suspected those English teachers were setting me up !

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I sent you an email

You cannot change the name. Maybe the Super Mod can do it in the database table.

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just a guy, with a Glock wrote:

One time in my life I try and use proper punctuation and it gets me. :banghead:

I always suspected those English teachers were setting me up !

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Actually.... There's no need for a comma with your name, unless you are trying to signify a more or less deliberate pause.

Sorry, I'm almost done with Liberal Studies 101... I mean ENG 111. It's been coming up a lot lately....