the draw

Citizen · Nov 13, 2007

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You've asked the right question at the right time.

There is fair amount to know. The more you dig into the subject the better.

Important is to learn good habits early so you don't have to break a bad one later.

Dig up some books on the subject by recognized experts. I came across Massad Ayoob's series Stressfire early. I made a deliberate decision to learn that because I had already developed respect for the author on other points of self-defense. I didn't know whether his was the best, but I knew it would be better than word of mouth, or Bubba at the gun store might tellme. By deliberate decision, I mean I started practicing knowing it might not be the best and that I might abandon it later if I discovered something else better.

Classes might help.

I've only skimmed the thread. If someone mentioned this next point already, let me know. One thing I've seen consistently mentioned in training books and articles is economy of motion. I'm sure you already know this, but, for example, thrust the gun forward rather than lift it up and then forward. Lifting up supposedly too often brings the gun too high requiring one to bring it down again once the muzzle is coming on target. Sort of like avoiding the classic movie sight picture aquisition where the actor points the muzzle to the sky and then brings it down onto the target. Too much motion. The point here isn't to focus on pushing the gun out from your chest. Thats just an example. The focus is economy of motion.

Wynder · Nov 14, 2007

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I would not consider placing a hand on the weapon brandishing -- if you draw your weapon, that most certainly is, otherwise, in a good majority of traffic stops, a police officer is 'brandishing' their weapon.

I don't believe this is the old west where duels were fought relatively fair and you kept your hand off of your gun until the first person drew. If you find yourself in a fair fight, you need to rethink your tactics. If someone approaches you in a threatening manner, I see nothing wrong with unconcealing (if concealed), placing your hand on the butt of your weapon and warning them that you're about to fire.

After they wet themselves and run off, that's when you can 'play fair' and call the police so they can show up 15 minutes later to take your statement.

Marco · Nov 14, 2007

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IDPA theywill on 1'o clock carry IPSC theymight on 1'o clock carry

I'm fairly certain that both will -- there's a diagram

If your lucky enough tofind a RO that knows your not playing the game they might:question:allow.
But your right, however there is no harm in asking.

HankT · Nov 14, 2007

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Wynder wrote:

I would not consider placing a hand on the weapon brandishing -- ...

Very situational and ddepends on state law, I think. I recall a fellow here who dman near got charged for brandishing for simply showing his gun. He transitioned fromCC to CC becausesome woman was screaming athim....

He didn't get charged, but got into some trouble over the incident.

Wynder wrote:

If someone approaches you in a threatening manner, I see nothing wrong with unconcealing (if concealed), placing your hand on the butt of your weapon and warning them that you're about to fire.

Of course, the question is what is reasonably "threatening," isn't it? In the case I cited, the goof with a gun decided some little 20 year old woman was somehow "threatening" because she was yapping at him over some beef. He really believed this little woman was a "threat" to him. But most here decided she wasn't and that he had erred badly in showing off his piece.

Going from CC to showing your gun and putting your hand on it, I think, will get you into trouble in most instances--unless there is indeed a reasonably demonstrable "threat."

Situations tend to get escalated when the gun comes out. Although, certainly, it can be perfectly appropriate to do sometimes. Depends.

Wynder wrote:

After they wet themselves and run off, that's when you can 'play fair' and call the police so they can show up 15 minutes later to take your statement.

And, no doubt, omit reporting the part aboutdisplaying and/or gripping the handgun....

DreQo · Nov 14, 2007

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Wynder wrote:

I would not consider placing a hand on the weapon brandishing -- if you draw your weapon, that most certainly is, otherwise, in a good majority of traffic stops, a police officer is 'brandishing' their weapon.

I don't believe this is the old west where duels were fought relatively fair and you kept your hand off of your gun until the first person drew. If you find yourself in a fair fight, you need to rethink your tactics. If someone approaches you in a threatening manner, I see nothing wrong with unconcealing (if concealed), placing your hand on the butt of your weapon and warning them that you're about to fire.

After they wet themselves and run off, that's when you can 'play fair' and call the police so they can show up 15 minutes later to take your statement.

I think we should consider two separate situations:

Situation 1: You are minding your own business with your family and you are approached by a man at a distance holding a knife. He demands your wallet and jewelry. At this point you pull your jacket back behind your sidearm, place your hand on the grip, and tell the man that if he comes any close he'll be shot.

Situation 2: You're walking out to your car, and you find another person parked next to you looking at his door. He see's you walk up, and starts going off about how there's a ding on his car and it is from your car door. He keeps his distance, be he's obviously upset. You tell him he's wrong because his car wasn't even there when you pulled in. He tells you that you better cough up the money to pay for the ding or you're not gonna like the consequences. The guy is a good foot taller than you and obviously muscular. You slowly place your hand on the grip of your handgun (that he can see) and ask him what he thinks he's gonna do.

In the first situation, you didn't necessarily have to immediately draw and fire, since the man was at a distance and only holding a knife, but placing your hand on your sidearm is exactly what you should do. In the second situation, while the guy is obviously pissed and big enough to cause some serious harm, he hasn't done enough to warrant bringing a gun into the situation, and by touching it you're essentially threatening him.

Now here's a question for you. If you were in a situation like the second one, and a guy slowly moved to his sidearm, would you consider that enough of a threat to draw and fire?

Wynder · Nov 14, 2007

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Now here's a question for you. If you were in a situation like the second one, and a guy slowly moved to his sidearm, would you consider that enough of a threat to draw and fire?

Your question is deviating from your scenario a bit -- are you now putting me in the place of the taller, more well-built man and that he (I) too am now armed? Rather, you're saying two armed people and I'm bigger and taller and am verbally accosting someone because they put a dent in my car and they had better pay me on the spot?

If that's the case, you're putting me in the position of being an aggressor that's illogically demanding someone to pay cash on the spot for damage to my car rather than going through insurance, so I can't really answer that question or see myself, personally, in a scenario where I'd be an aggressor.

Maybe pose a more relevant scenario?

HankT · Nov 14, 2007

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DreQo wrote:

Now here's a question for you. If you were in a situation like the second one, and a guy slowly moved to his sidearm, would you consider that enough of a threat to draw and fire?

That's a wicked question. It gets at truth.

It also shows how stoopid it is to do unnecessary brandishing....

Remember, a gun brandisher is almost always a goof with a gun...

DreQo · Nov 14, 2007

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Wynder wrote:

Now here's a question for you. If you were in a situation like the second one, and a guy slowly moved to his sidearm, would you consider that enough of a threat to draw and fire?

Click to expand...

Your question is deviating from your scenario a bit -- are you now putting me in the place of the taller, more well-built man and that he (I) too am now armed? Rather, you're saying two armed people and I'm bigger and taller and am verbally accosting someone because they put a dent in my car and they had better pay me on the spot?

If that's the case, you're putting me in the position of being an aggressor that's illogically demanding someone to pay cash on the spot for damage to my car rather than going through insurance, so I can't really answer that question or see myself, personally, in a scenario where I'd be an aggressor.

Maybe pose a more relevant scenario?

lol I KNEW I would have to qualify that. Thequestion I'm askingis that, assuming all your other ducks are in a row, if a man grips his holstered gun, is that enough to shoot him? Or would you wait until he cleared leather? If I knew a guy was armed and his hand touchedhis weapon, I believe I would consider that time to shoot.

Wynder · Nov 14, 2007

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lol I KNEW I would have to qualify that. The question I'm asking is that, assuming all your other ducks are in a row, if a man grips his holstered gun, is that enough to shoot him? Or would you wait until he cleared leather? If I knew a guy was armed and his hand touched his weapon, I believe I would consider that time to shoot.

Yeah, that's a pretty wicked question... and I think I'd have to be IN that scenario to make a snap decision. How fast is he reaching for his pistol? How high is the tension? Do I *feel* like my life is in danger considering the situation? Does my 10-second knowledge of his mental state alert me that he's going to draw down on me? Is he stupid enough to kill a person?

These are probably half of the questions that would blaze through my mind in the fraction of a second I had to decide. Granted, my state has a 'Duty to Retreat' statute, but if the answer to all of those questions were an unqualified 'yes', then my answer to your question is: very possibly.

Since you're essential asking, "At what point of aggression will you kill someone", I don't think I can give a better answer than that.

HankT · Nov 14, 2007

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Wynder wrote:

lol I KNEW I would have to qualify that. The question I'm asking is that, assuming all your other ducks are in a row, if a man grips his holstered gun, is that enough to shoot him? Or would you wait until he cleared leather? If I knew a guy was armed and his hand touched his weapon, I believe I would consider that time to shoot.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that's a pretty wicked question... and I think I'd have to be IN that scenario to make a snap decision. How fast is he reaching for his pistol? How high is the tension? Do I *feel* like my life is in danger considering the situation? Does my 10-second knowledge of his mental state alert me that he's going to draw down on me? Is he stupid enough to kill a person?

These are probably half of the questions that would blaze through my mind in the fraction of a second I had to decide. Granted, my state has a 'Duty to Retreat' statute, but if the answer to all of those questions were an unqualified 'yes', then my answer to your question is: very possibly.

Since you're essential asking, "At what point of aggression will you kill someone", I don't think I can give a better answer than that.

DreQo's scenario is quite good.

I can see why pro-gunners wouldn't want to answer it. It's embarassing to do so and it's definitely a relevant scenario (protestations to the contrary notwithstanding).

I would definitely say, too, that the scenario also points out the benefits of not having people walk around armed. That's a good part of the reason that pro-gunners won't directly answer the question. They instinctively know it's a situation where guns are bad to have around...

Marco · Nov 14, 2007

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DreQo · Nov 14, 2007

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I think this also brings up the point that the speed of your draw can make or break you if you're forced to react to someone else who is already drawing.

Marco · Nov 14, 2007

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IdahoCorsair · Nov 14, 2007

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Tarzan, regarding your statement "BAD GUYS DON'T USE HOLSTERS"
.... I read a survey recently of several thousand inmates, and forgive me for the brain fart, but it was either 40% used holsters or 40% didn't use holsters... but i think it was the former... this new information might be helpful to you.

Cue-Ball · Nov 14, 2007

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DreQo wrote:

Situation 1: You are minding your own business with your family and you are approached by a man at a distance holding a knife. He demands your wallet and jewelry. At this point you pull your jacket back behind your sidearm, place your hand on the grip, and tell the man that if he comes any close he'll be shot.

If someone threatens me and my family with a drawn knife, he isn't getting told anything - he's getting air conditioned. Although, I might say "drop the weapon!" or "Call the police!" as I'm firing.

longwatch · Nov 14, 2007

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Putting out the flames, quit bickering at each other people.

openryan · Nov 14, 2007

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DreQo wrote:

Wynder wrote:

I would not consider placing a hand on the weapon brandishing -- if you draw your weapon, that most certainly is, otherwise, in a good majority of traffic stops, a police officer is 'brandishing' their weapon.

I don't believe this is the old west where duels were fought relatively fair and you kept your hand off of your gun until the first person drew. If you find yourself in a fair fight, you need to rethink your tactics. If someone approaches you in a threatening manner, I see nothing wrong with unconcealing (if concealed), placing your hand on the butt of your weapon and warning them that you're about to fire.

After they wet themselves and run off, that's when you can 'play fair' and call the police so they can show up 15 minutes later to take your statement.

Click to expand...

I think we should consider two separate situations:

Situation 1: You are minding your own business with your family and you are approached by a man at a distance holding a knife. He demands your wallet and jewelry. At this point you pull your jacket back behind your sidearm, place your hand on the grip, and tell the man that if he comes any close he'll be shot.

Situation 2: You're walking out to your car, and you find another person parked next to you looking at his door. He see's you walk up, and starts going off about how there's a ding on his car and it is from your car door. He keeps his distance, be he's obviously upset. You tell him he's wrong because his car wasn't even there when you pulled in. He tells you that you better cough up the money to pay for the ding or you're not gonna like the consequences. The guy is a good foot taller than you and obviously muscular. You slowly place your hand on the grip of your handgun (that he can see) and ask him what he thinks he's gonna do.

In the first situation, you didn't necessarily have to immediately draw and fire, since the man was at a distance and only holding a knife, but placing your hand on your sidearm is exactly what you should do. In the second situation, while the guy is obviously pissed and big enough to cause some serious harm, he hasn't done enough to warrant bringing a gun into the situation, and by touching it you're essentially threatening him.

Now here's a question for you. If you were in a situation like the second one, and a guy slowly moved to his sidearm, would you consider that enough of a threat to draw and fire?

In some situations, if you can prove that you truly believe you were going to be hurt or fatally wounded, it could be legal to do so. However if the guy already has his hand on the firearm, I am not going to cause any sudden commotion, as I do not want to get shot. Ideally I would like to talk him down, and distract him from his firearm, and hope the situation ends, or draw my weapon on him and contact police immediately.

Yes, I would consider it enough of a threat to draw, but to fire or not, would depend on his next action.

I know a lot of people don't say draw unless you are ready to fire, and of course I would be ready to fire based upon his next move, however in Indiana, I could legally draw assuming he made this behavior towards me, and I felt threatened and in danger.

And if someone is putting their hand on their weapon and I am the only one around, and this hypothetical situation is goin on during all of this, yes I would feel threatened.

openryan · Nov 14, 2007

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DreQo wrote:

Wynder wrote:

Now here's a question for you. If you were in a situation like the second one, and a guy slowly moved to his sidearm, would you consider that enough of a threat to draw and fire?

Click to expand...

Your question is deviating from your scenario a bit -- are you now putting me in the place of the taller, more well-built man and that he (I) too am now armed? Rather, you're saying two armed people and I'm bigger and taller and am verbally accosting someone because they put a dent in my car and they had better pay me on the spot?

If that's the case, you're putting me in the position of being an aggressor that's illogically demanding someone to pay cash on the spot for damage to my car rather than going through insurance, so I can't really answer that question or see myself, personally, in a scenario where I'd be an aggressor.

Maybe pose a more relevant scenario?

Click to expand...

lol I KNEW I would have to qualify that. Thequestion I'm askingis that, assuming all your other ducks are in a row, if a man grips his holstered gun, is that enough to shoot him? Or would you wait until he cleared leather? If I knew a guy was armed and his hand touchedhis weapon, I believe I would consider that time to shoot.

I would consider that the time to draw, if he was stupid enough to draw while I was fixed on him, then he is going to be shot. However I would call police while drawn on him.

The thing that worries me about this is that if their is a video camera or witness involved and they don't see him actually threatening you with the firearm, it could end very bad, with possible jail time.

I figure as long as I have drawn on him and can call police while having him in full view and in my sights, I have the upperhand, even if he tries to draw, I can fire quickly.

openryan · Nov 14, 2007

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HankT wrote:

Wynder wrote:

lol I KNEW I would have to qualify that. The question I'm asking is that, assuming all your other ducks are in a row, if a man grips his holstered gun, is that enough to shoot him? Or would you wait until he cleared leather? If I knew a guy was armed and his hand touched his weapon, I believe I would consider that time to shoot.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that's a pretty wicked question... and I think I'd have to be IN that scenario to make a snap decision. How fast is he reaching for his pistol? How high is the tension? Do I *feel* like my life is in danger considering the situation? Does my 10-second knowledge of his mental state alert me that he's going to draw down on me? Is he stupid enough to kill a person?

These are probably half of the questions that would blaze through my mind in the fraction of a second I had to decide. Granted, my state has a 'Duty to Retreat' statute, but if the answer to all of those questions were an unqualified 'yes', then my answer to your question is: very possibly.

Since you're essential asking, "At what point of aggression will you kill someone", I don't think I can give a better answer than that.

Click to expand...

DreQo's scenario is quite good.

I can see why pro-gunners wouldn't want to answer it. It's embarassing to do so and it's definitely a relevant scenario (protestations to the contrary notwithstanding).

I would definitely say, too, that the scenario also points out the benefits of not having people walk around armed. That's a good part of the reason that pro-gunners won't directly answer the question. They instinctively know it's a situation where guns are bad to have around...

I don't think it that hard of a scenario to answer. Whether you could shoot or not depends entirely on the legality of the state you are going to be in when this happens.

The problem is not that guns are bad to have in this situation, in fact it goes along with any situation, bad guys can get guns, civil people should have the right to protect themselves. If it wasn't a gun, it could be a knife, it will always be something.
The problem is that uncontrollable rage is a bad thing to have, the guy was set off by a ding in the car, there are many ways to diffuse a situation other than reaching for a firearm, legally in most states, you should try to retreat first, and if you are indeed trying to difuse the situation, you should retreat, and call police, if you were being pursued while retreating, then think about the gun.

It is the logic behing the men in the situation that makes the guns look bad, not the guns themselves...

gsh341 · Nov 14, 2007

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mrguppy wrote:

lordnitrox wrote:

I have been working on my draw today and would like some feed back on things.
The first question i have is what is the best place to have the holster? I have been messing with it, and like how the placement is with the holster at about 1'o-clock. I feel that I have to reach less on the draw, and there is less strain on my arm.
I know it's a matter of personal choice, but is there any major downsides to this?
My second and most important question is where should my hands be when ready to draw? Say I get in a confrontation with some one and i feel threatened, what is the best place to have my hands? should my strong hand be over the holster/butt area ready to draw, or off to the side a bit?

Click to expand...

this is what i have been told from a few people and have found that it helped me alot, may not be as helpful for everyone else.

when you are at home unload your gun, again make sure it is unloaded. have the gun on your hip where you think that you would like it. grab a timer of some kinda that you can set to go off every other min or something like that. when you here the timer go off draw your UNLOADED gun and fire two shots then reholster your gun repeat over and over with each spot you think you will have the gun on your hip. when you have found a spot you like make sure that you can walk around, sit down, get in and out of your car(had more trouble with my mag holder the my gun on this). make sure that you can do all the following with out having to move your gun. when you found a spot practice drawing at your self in a mirror. you will soon find out what is best for you and become comfortable drawing your gun. again make sure your gun is unloaded when drawing it. be safe and have fun.

also make sure that you get the right holster for you. i have two a surpa and a galaco so that it will fit my needs. for oc or cc when on mine or my friends land(country area).

Good advice.One of the things that I noticed in this thread is that no one mentioned moving off the "X". If you believe there is going to be a situation that might require lethal force you should be leaving the area if possible. If you can't leave the area you should be moving (either slowly or rapidly depending on the situation) to a covered or concealed position to give yourself an advantage over your possible opponent. Once an attack has started, standing still will get you killed.

Also, once the BG has produced a weapon, regardless of the type, you should be preparing for your draw ordrawing. A person with a knife can cover 20 feet in just a second or so. If you can't draw in that time you have either failed to prepare adequately for your draw or you should be readyto dosomething other than pulling your gun.

the draw

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