Semi bad encounter with OC

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HankT wrote:

So, was Butch's Gun Shop at about 73rd and Aurora?

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So you do know how to use google.

Strange.

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^hahaha!! Its one of the only actual gun shops on aurora.... so yes its is!

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Agent 47 wrote:

ARod is the furthest thing from a gang banger imaginable and what makes you assume he is a first time OC'er he has been OC'ing longer than most on this board, and BTW you need to be 21 not 18 to Carry in this state. He comes on here and shares a story about a negative experience in an establishment that has been reported to be anti OC in the past. You go off andassume it's his fault and he must be some punk kid who was out looking for trouble, get real or butt out.

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Excuse you, and excuse me, I was not necessarily addressing the the OP. It was just a thought I had reading this thread. My fault for not making that clearer. However it was his first post and Iknow nothing about him other than what he wrote.
Calm down.

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expvideo wrote:

HankT wrote:

So, was Butch's Gun Shop at about 73rd and Aurora?

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So you do know how to use google.

Strange.

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Sure. But mostly I know how to read....

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if I am interpreting the law correctly, that if you are 18 you can carry a gun unloaded in a briefcase or in a backpack, so long as it is in a gun case. [emphasis added]

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I don't think you have that quite right--in the scenarios you describe the briefcase or backpack is the "closed opaque case or secure wrapper"; there's no requirement for there to be a "gun case" inside.

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Also, there is an exception for those 18-20 (and younger) while engaged in "lawful outdoor recreational activities" in certain circumstances. Anyone at least 18 can OC or CC while hiking, fishing, hunting, etc., even without a CPL, as I understand the RCWs, but IANAL.

RCW 9.41.240:
"Unless an exception under RCW 9.41.042, 9.41.050, or 9.41.060 applies, a person at least eighteen years of age, but less than twenty-one years of age, may possess a pistol only..."

RCW 9.41.060"The provisions of RCW 9.41.050 shall not apply to:
...
(8) Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;..."

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I'd be cautious in considering a backback to be an "opaque case or wrapper", without the gun case. You're probably correct, but I'd use the case anyway, just to be safe. However, that would mean that if I was 18, I could carry a gun in a reachable side pouch in my backback, and a magazine in a mag holder, or something, and effectively CC, with about an aditional 3-5 seconds to draw and charge the weapon over a regular CCer.

18-20 can also have an unloaded handgun in their car, so long as it is out of sight and the car is locked when they aren't in the car.


EDIT:

Also, would this be considered an "opaque case"? If the 18-20 year old were to wear this holster with the magazine in the pouch, and the pistol unloaded, would it be considered legal?

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Hey a Polish pounder!

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expvideo wrote:

I'd be cautious in considering a backback to be an "opaque case or wrapper", without the gun case. You're probably correct, but I'd use the case anyway, just to be safe. However, that would mean that if I was 18, I could carry a gun in a reachable side pouch in my backback, and a magazine in a mag holder, or something, and effectively CC, with about an aditional 3-5 seconds to draw and charge the weapon over a regular CCer.

18-20 can also have an unloaded handgun in their car, so long as it is out of sight and the car is locked when they aren't in the car.


EDIT:

Also, would this be considered an "opaque case"? If the 18-20 year old were to wear this holster with the magazine in the pouch, and the pistol unloaded, would it be considered legal?

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f8f8f8"

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In 3-5 seconds you would be dead. It is a holster not an opaque case. The case thing is so you won't upset the sheeple and that holster would surely upset them wussies.

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I oc with this rig. Very few people recognize it as a holster.

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Been thinking about gettting one of those Czech or Polish autoloaders. The CZ 83 is high on my "hhmmm" list and a good reason to remind me to get my C&R FFL

Steve

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expvideo wrote:

I've scoured the RCWs, trying to find a loophole for 18-20 carry, and unfortunately there isn't one.

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I am going by the Everett Training Bulletin #2007-06 Dated March 13, 2007. Even though we know it contains at least one error (possession of a silencer) it clearly states, in part;

Background



There have been recent assertions that officers are giving conflicting advice regarding peaceable open carry of a firearm in a holster. Please note the following points regarding this topic:



General Rules for Possession of Firearms



Assuming there are no other prohibitions, e.g. convicted felon:

• Can possess a firearm if 18 years old or older and a U.S. citizen.

Pistols

• Cannot possess a concealed pistol outside the home of fixed place of business without a concealed pistol license (CPL).
• Can possess a visable pistol without a CPL.
• Cannot have a loaded pistol in a car without a CPL and pistol is on the licensee's person, or licensee is in the car at all times with the pistol, pr pistol is locked insode and out of view if licensee is out of the car.

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So, since the principle focus of thebulletin isopen carry, it seems to say that since anyone (with exceptions) who is 18 years of age or oldercan possess a firearm, they can also possess a visable pistol without benefit of a CPL.

There is nothing in the Everett bulletin to intimate that one must be 21 or over to posess a visable pistol.

Since 1968Federal statutes have held that one must be 21 or older in order to purchase a handgun from a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL). But at age 18 or older one may possess a handgun and may evenpurchase one from a private party. From what I can tell Washington State laws seem to mirror that.

Looking at the other TRaining bulletins I also find nothing indicating that open carrying is only lawful by those 21 and over. In fact, looking at statues (other than those pertaining to having a CPL) I can only find one RCW [RCW 9.41.040(2)(a)(iii)] that mentions age. That RCW that illegalizes possession of firearms by juveniles. However in Washington, a juvenile is anyone under the age of 18.

So, if there is anything specifically saying that open carry is restricted to those only 21 or over I cannot find it. Perhaps someone else can point us to something I have missed.

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ARod wrote:

^hahaha!! Its one of the only actual gun shops on aurora.... so yes its is!

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Actually, there's two within about 1-2 miles of each other on Aurora/Hwy 99 in Lynnwood; Adventure Sports and Lynnwood Gun, both good places.

Since I go to Beth's Cafe regularly (and have OC'd there with POSITIVE reactions from the staff), I know the store well, but have never gone in. I think the first time I go there will be OC'ing and with training bulletins/RCW's/State Constitution in-hand to see if they really want me to put them on our "DO NOT PATRONIZE" list, since I keep it up....

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just_a_car wrote:

ARod wrote:

^hahaha!! Its one of the only actual gun shops on aurora.... so yes its is!

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.... I think the first time I go there will be OC'ing and with training bulletins/RCW's/State Constitution in-hand to see if they really want me to put them on our "DO NOT PATRONIZE" list, since I keep it up....

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Add them!

The gun shop hasalready earned the listing. They hassled ARod for OCing. They hassled Hilllbilly for CCing.

Plus, the shop has a reputation of many complaints for doing the same stuff to others. That's way enough.




Add them to the "DO NOT PATRONIZE" list and let them suffer for their blatant anti-2A transgressions...

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BluesBear wrote:

expvideo wrote:

I've scoured the RCWs, trying to find a loophole for 18-20 carry, and unfortunately there isn't one.

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I am going by the Everett Training Bulletin #2007-06 Dated March 13, 2007. Even though we know it contains at least one error (possession of a silencer) it clearly states, in part;

Background



There have been recent assertions that officers are giving conflicting advice regarding peaceable open carry of a firearm in a holster. Please note the following points regarding this topic:



General Rules for Possession of Firearms



Assuming there are no other prohibitions, e.g. convicted felon:

• Can possess a firearm if 18 years old or older and a U.S. citizen.

Pistols

• Cannot possess a concealed pistol outside the home of fixed place of business without a concealed pistol license (CPL).
• Can possess a visable pistol without a CPL.
• Cannot have a loaded pistol in a car without a CPL and pistol is on the licensee's person, or licensee is in the car at all times with the pistol, pr pistol is locked insode and out of view if licensee is out of the car.

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So, since the principle focus of thebulletin isopen carry, it seems to say that since anyone (with exceptions) who is 18 years of age or oldercan possess a firearm, they can also possess a visable pistol without benefit of a CPL.

There is nothing in the Everett bulletin to intimate that one must be 21 or over to posess a visable pistol.

Since 1968Federal statutes have held that one must be 21 or older in order to purchase a handgun from a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL). But at age 18 or older one may possess a handgun and may evenpurchase one from a private party. From what I can tell Washington State laws seem to mirror that.

Looking at the other TRaining bulletins I also find nothing indicating that open carrying is only lawful by those 21 and over. In fact, looking at statues (other than those pertaining to having a CPL) I can only find one RCW [RCW 9.41.040(2)(a)(iii)] that mentions age. That RCW that illegalizes possession of firearms by juveniles. However in Washington, a juvenile is anyone under the age of 18.

So, if there is anything specifically saying that open carry is restricted to those only 21 or over I cannot find it. Perhaps someone else can point us to something I have missed.

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I wouldn't trust the everett bulletin as law. I'm trying to figure this one out, and I'm typing this as I'm researching, so hopefully you're right. So the rcw regarding 18-20 carry is here:

RCW 9.41.240
Possession of pistol by person from eighteen to twenty-one.

Unless an exception under RCW 9.41.042, 9.41.050, or 9.41.060 applies, a person at least eighteen years of age, but less than twenty-one years of age, may possess a pistol only:

(1) In the person's place of abode;

(2) At the person's fixed place of business; or

(3) On real property under his or her control.

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The problem is that unlike the other rcws, this one says "possession of a pistol", not "a concealed pistol", blocking that "loophole". However, it also allows carry under circumstances set by 9.41.060, which reads (skipping the parts that aren't pertainant):

RCW 9.41.060
Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms.

The provisions of RCW 9.41.050 shall not apply to:


(6) Regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for the purpose of target shooting, when those members are at or are going to or from their places of target practice;

(7) Regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for the purpose of modern and antique firearm collecting, when those members are at or are going to or from their collector's gun shows and exhibits;

(8) Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;

(9) Any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper; or

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Which means that in any of these circumstances, anyone 18-20 can possess a handgun while carrying the pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper, while engaging in a lawful outdoor receational activity, or while at or on their way to a shooting club or gun show.

I'm typing this as I research, so bear with me...

Let's check out 9.41.050:

RCW 9.41.050
Carrying firearms.

(3)(a) A person at least eighteen years of age who is in possession of an unloaded pistol shall not leave the unloaded pistol in a vehicle unless the unloaded pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

(b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.

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this is all I can find that is pertainant to this case. The same RCW is the one that doesn't disallow OC for 21+. The problem is that possession of a loaded handgun while not engaged in the above mentioned activities is expressly prohibited in 9.41.240, leading me to draw the conclusion that 18-20 open carry is only legal if they are engaged in those activities.

Is there anything I'm missing? I'm not trying to argue, I'm just trying to piece this together.

As far as I can tell, open carrying unloaded in a flap holster should be legal for anyone 18-20, but unfortunately "opaque case or wrapper" is not defined in RCW 9.41.010 (interestingly enough, afirearm with no stock and a barrel over 16" is not defined as either a rifle OR a pistol, just a firearm).



Can anyone confirm or deny the bolded statement?

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I may be wrong but it seems to me that this would be cc since the weapon is completely out of sight.

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Expvideo is absolutely correct. Unless an 18 - 20 yo is going to, from, or participating in an activity as outlined by the RCW's they cannot have a loaded pistol unless they are at home, thier fixed business, or property under thier control.

I am pretty sure carrying a pistol in a holster would not be legal. I seem to remember a court case where something similar was argued and the court determined that a holster did not qualify as an opaque case or wrapper.

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It does appear that EXP has found the correct RCW disallowing 18-21 open carry.

And I would NOT reccomend anyone trying to use a flap holster in place of a opaque case or a secure wrapper. It does NOT meet the criteria of either, it's just a holster.

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HankT wrote:

Add them to the "DO NOT PATRONIZE" list and let them suffer for their blatant anti-2A transgressions...

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:question:Why is Ms Trool pushing so hard to put a Washington business on the DNP list? Doesn't she have enough to worry about in her own state? I mean it's not as if she has to worry about wandering in there by accident all the way from Virginia. Especially since she doesn't open carry to begin with.

:uhoh:Oh that's right her main objective here is to cause discontent on our portion of the forum. I keep forgetting her agenda.

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Never been to the store and dont know any of the employees. I would be willing to guess that they had a close encounter with a customer and his firearm?
Still no excuse for being rude to a OC/CC...