Hellrazor227
Regular Member
imported post
I have posted on another discussion about legal OC in California through means of carrying your handgun unloaded. Today I have decided to start a new thread as my first contact with police harassment hasoccured.
Just some background information:
- I am 21, legally purchased my own handgun and have no criminal history whatsoever.
- I have open carried my unloaded handgun through areas in Glendora, San Dimas, La Verne, Covina, Pomona, Montclair and other surrounding cities. The main stores that I have shopped/conducted business include Wal-Mart, In-N-Out, McDonald's, Target, and today the mall located in Montclair, California.
- I have thoroughly read California Penal Code sections 12020-12040 which encompass firearms laws and understand that no section prohibits the open carrying of an unloaded handgun. I have also read a related court case in the State of California vs Clark (San Diego County) from 1996 which holds a legal definition of a loaded firearm directly from the interpretation of the state court system.
- I carry a Rock Island 1911 .45 with two magazines each containing 8 rounds of ammunition. (I know you'll laugh at the RI but I'm a college student and dropping 700-1000 dollars on a handgun is ill advised and outside of my budget).
Now after all of that garbage here is what happened today from the beginning:
My friend decided to go shopping at the mall located in Montclair, California (which is near the LA-San Bernadino County line) so I decided I'd tag along and carry my unloaded handgun (with ammunition in a magazine separately of course). This was probably my 5th or 6th excursion carrying the handgun and the first time into what I call a "townie" hot zone (i'm sure urbandictionary.com has a good slang definition of "townie" for those of you who don't know what that is).
First we browsed the lower floor of the shopping center with little fanfare other than perhaps a few stares (I tend not to bother with paying attention to the gawkers). So we traveled to the second floor and I decided to purchase a small soda from the McDonald's in the food court. After proceeding to browse the shops on the second floor we noticed four security guards "shadowing" us haplessly as they failed to carry firearms (bright blue uniform shirts and drill sergeant hats weren't exactly hard to pick out).
At this moment I realized some ignorant members of the populace decided to alert security and likely the police to a deranged lunatic openly carrying a handgun. Perhaps if some people would use logic and quit being scared out of their pants they might realize if I was going to commit a crime I would probably have concealed my firearm in the first place. But the ignorance of the many is another issue in and of itself. So from this my friend commented "maybe we should leave now" but I foresaw getting pulled over as we left by the police and decided I'd rather deal with it where there would be more witnesses if the american stormtroopers got trigger happy.
Shortly thereafter I spotted a police officer (a lady who if I was a criminal could easily have handled). From the first entrance into the mall to my first sighting of a police officer somewhere between 25-30 minutes had passed which again if I was a criminal/deranged lunatic could have proceeded to lay waste to who knows how many people before they arrived (perhaps another nod for me to continue my practice of this in the future). After about 5 seconds of seeing her she spotted me and the handgun and started approaching quickly. She then proceeded to place her hand on her firearm as if she was likely to draw so I placed my hands in the air, stopped, and stated my handgun was unloaded.
She then proceeded to grab my arms and place handcuffs on me. Once she had those in position she removed my firearm, neglected to check if it was loaded. She failed to pat me down immediately and chose to sit me down instead of removing my two magazines I carry on my person as well. 10-15 seconds after being placed on the bench 5-6 more officers arrived (I didn't count immediately and I was a bit nervous as this was my first encounter with the police under the circumstances). The second officer to arrive, a balding white male in his late 30's to mid 40's proceeded to pat me down, remove my wallet and pen. I alerted him that I was carrying two magazines as well and that he would probably like to remove them as well. Again I noted the negligence of the police as he failed to pat down my left front pocket which contained a pair of cheap sunglasses and a small pocket knife i carry clipped and visible at all times (I would later alert another officer that he might wish to remove those as well). Meanwhile my friend was being handcuffed and searched as well.
The officers then proceeded to escort us to a small office/holding station located on the mall property. There they would put me into the holding area and placed my friend on a bench. Next they would ask me why I was carrying a handgun, what was I doing, etc. (I'll be honest I was still quite nervous and don't remember the exact questions they posed to me). I didn't ask for a lawyer but I did proceed to inform the officers that what I was doing was legal under California law and was for my own self protection. Upon this the Hispanic officer who seemed to be in charge (apparently a sergeant) coined in saying "this isn't the wild wild west" and then after I again repeated it was legal told the other officers "I don't want to hear anymore from this guy" and they closed the door to the holding area (not entirely as they left ita crack open). I would sit alone for5 minutes before hearing anything clearly in which one officer stated "let's charge him with carrying an unloaded handgun." Another 10 minutes would pass (all the while they were questioning my friend mostly along the lines I would later find out of "is your friend crazy"). My friend would also later inform me of many sarcastic comments such as "it's a nice gun but shitty ammunition." That is probably true but to be honest I don't see much of a difference in paying twice as much to get 3" groups when 6" groups are plenty good to hit a guy from within 50 yards.
But back onto the main plot. I would begin to start laughing to myself at the next set of events. I spotted one of the officers grabbing a very thick book which I knew was a set of the California Penal Code and three of them took turns flipping through trying to find a law to use against me. That would go on for another 10 minutes. They would then open the door and ask me if I was crazy or was mentally deranged and I stated "no." Then for my own kicks (although it probably wasn't the smartest decision) I stated that the closest thing to a law was Section 12031 of the California Penal Code and specifically section G regarding loaded firearms. Another 2-3 minutes of flipping later an officer (the largest officer of the bunch, a white male aged 30-35 nearly completely bald) walked in, released me from my handcuffs, asked me my name, and walked out.
Next the Sergeant and the large officer walked in to question me some more, the female officer also came to question me on my identification. The sergeant would also state that in his 16 years of policing he had never occured the present situation before (which made me all the more proud of doing so). They then proceeded to move me out next to my friend on a bench where 3 of the mall security guards were giving their version of events as well. The officers informed me that I was to be banned from the mall but no charges were going to be pressed against me. They would also proceed to nag me that they were merely doing their job (to which I sarcastically agreed), that I was crazy to do this to which I replied it's perfectly legal. They also told me some information to try and scare me such as "what if a rookie cop was the arresting officer and he shot you." To this I replied I would either take legal recourse against the proper parties or I would simply be dead and that in that case it wouldn't matter.
After that conversation the mall security officers proceeded to take my picture and explain to me the intricacies of the ban (they also provided me with a copy of the ban to which is now proudly attached to my desk). The mall ban is no big loss as I'm quite the cheap skate and paying more than 20 dollars for any article of clothing is exorbitant in the first place in my opinion (unless its for severe weather conditions, etc etc). The officers would then ask me more questions such as had I done this before and if I had been detained for it to which again I stated "no." They were shocked by this and informed me if I open carried in the city of Montclair I was likely to be detained again.
Somewhere along the lineI also informed them I had contacted theCaliforniaAttorney General's office with questions related to open carrying firearms and thatthey stated there was no law against it, pointed me to California Penal Code 12031, andalso stated that the police had the right toat least check if the firearm is unloaded at will (this last part i'm not sure of but i'd rather open the slide of my firearm and showan officer than constantly get hauled down to the station;as to whether the police will take more liberties than this is quite obvious likely but this also provides me with possible information to use against the police in any event).
The sergeant also cracked "where's your Charlton Heston card" to which I quipped back "I don't support the NRA as they agree to surrender too many gun rights in my view." After hearing them out I proceed to ask for my gun and belongings which they provided (although they field stripped my handgun, as if I could not put it back together). I decided against re-assembling my handgun as I didn't want to provide them an oppurtunity to even claim that I was brandishing a firearm (once I got home I eagerly re-assembled my baby). I checked all of my belongings to ensure nothing had gone missing but alas I found the police had lost my cheap pen I was carrying with me. Upon this the two of us proceeded immediately home.
The lessons I learned from this first experience:
- At least until I get some experience under my belt to cooperate fully with the police as this will help smooth along a release from custody.
- Fully read and understand the laws/court cases related to open carrying/firearms if you are going to partake in this as it will help you adequately defend yourself plus school the police on the law they swear to uphold!
- That perhaps if (more likely when)this occurs again I will be more assertive of my legal rights and state they only have the right to check the firearm. Although if any of you can provide legal information/California law related to this I would be most appreciative.
- Being somewhat intelligent and able to make logical reasoning clear for the officers is a definite plus. Making the officers believe you are an upstanding individual who is merely partaking in a legal right helps. Merely spewingconstantly that the 2nd amendment is all you need will probably get more yawns or anger out of the officers than anything else.
- If you don't have a perfect legal record you are probably going to have a much tougher time than I did.
- ALWAYS BRING A PARTNER. Obviously someone you can trust and who is reliable/has a clean record who can provide eye witness testimony in the event shit gets out of hand.
And to note that after this all occured I was in a very joyous mood at out-witting the dopes who serve to "protect and uphold the law."
If anybody has any questions I'll answer them as best I can.
And if you guys are curious one of my reasons I believe in open carrying is to pressure the police in L.A. county to more freely issue CCW permits as I would much prefer to concealed carry but I'm not going to waste the time or the money until I believe I have a reasonable chance of success in acquiring one.
I don't know quotes so I'll end it with a comment of my own (although I'm sure someone else has stated it long before me). A right that goes unexercised is a right that is lost. Don't let the ignorance or fear of others prevent you from fully exercising your rights under the law.
I have posted on another discussion about legal OC in California through means of carrying your handgun unloaded. Today I have decided to start a new thread as my first contact with police harassment hasoccured.
Just some background information:
- I am 21, legally purchased my own handgun and have no criminal history whatsoever.
- I have open carried my unloaded handgun through areas in Glendora, San Dimas, La Verne, Covina, Pomona, Montclair and other surrounding cities. The main stores that I have shopped/conducted business include Wal-Mart, In-N-Out, McDonald's, Target, and today the mall located in Montclair, California.
- I have thoroughly read California Penal Code sections 12020-12040 which encompass firearms laws and understand that no section prohibits the open carrying of an unloaded handgun. I have also read a related court case in the State of California vs Clark (San Diego County) from 1996 which holds a legal definition of a loaded firearm directly from the interpretation of the state court system.
- I carry a Rock Island 1911 .45 with two magazines each containing 8 rounds of ammunition. (I know you'll laugh at the RI but I'm a college student and dropping 700-1000 dollars on a handgun is ill advised and outside of my budget).
Now after all of that garbage here is what happened today from the beginning:
My friend decided to go shopping at the mall located in Montclair, California (which is near the LA-San Bernadino County line) so I decided I'd tag along and carry my unloaded handgun (with ammunition in a magazine separately of course). This was probably my 5th or 6th excursion carrying the handgun and the first time into what I call a "townie" hot zone (i'm sure urbandictionary.com has a good slang definition of "townie" for those of you who don't know what that is).
First we browsed the lower floor of the shopping center with little fanfare other than perhaps a few stares (I tend not to bother with paying attention to the gawkers). So we traveled to the second floor and I decided to purchase a small soda from the McDonald's in the food court. After proceeding to browse the shops on the second floor we noticed four security guards "shadowing" us haplessly as they failed to carry firearms (bright blue uniform shirts and drill sergeant hats weren't exactly hard to pick out).
At this moment I realized some ignorant members of the populace decided to alert security and likely the police to a deranged lunatic openly carrying a handgun. Perhaps if some people would use logic and quit being scared out of their pants they might realize if I was going to commit a crime I would probably have concealed my firearm in the first place. But the ignorance of the many is another issue in and of itself. So from this my friend commented "maybe we should leave now" but I foresaw getting pulled over as we left by the police and decided I'd rather deal with it where there would be more witnesses if the american stormtroopers got trigger happy.
Shortly thereafter I spotted a police officer (a lady who if I was a criminal could easily have handled). From the first entrance into the mall to my first sighting of a police officer somewhere between 25-30 minutes had passed which again if I was a criminal/deranged lunatic could have proceeded to lay waste to who knows how many people before they arrived (perhaps another nod for me to continue my practice of this in the future). After about 5 seconds of seeing her she spotted me and the handgun and started approaching quickly. She then proceeded to place her hand on her firearm as if she was likely to draw so I placed my hands in the air, stopped, and stated my handgun was unloaded.
She then proceeded to grab my arms and place handcuffs on me. Once she had those in position she removed my firearm, neglected to check if it was loaded. She failed to pat me down immediately and chose to sit me down instead of removing my two magazines I carry on my person as well. 10-15 seconds after being placed on the bench 5-6 more officers arrived (I didn't count immediately and I was a bit nervous as this was my first encounter with the police under the circumstances). The second officer to arrive, a balding white male in his late 30's to mid 40's proceeded to pat me down, remove my wallet and pen. I alerted him that I was carrying two magazines as well and that he would probably like to remove them as well. Again I noted the negligence of the police as he failed to pat down my left front pocket which contained a pair of cheap sunglasses and a small pocket knife i carry clipped and visible at all times (I would later alert another officer that he might wish to remove those as well). Meanwhile my friend was being handcuffed and searched as well.
The officers then proceeded to escort us to a small office/holding station located on the mall property. There they would put me into the holding area and placed my friend on a bench. Next they would ask me why I was carrying a handgun, what was I doing, etc. (I'll be honest I was still quite nervous and don't remember the exact questions they posed to me). I didn't ask for a lawyer but I did proceed to inform the officers that what I was doing was legal under California law and was for my own self protection. Upon this the Hispanic officer who seemed to be in charge (apparently a sergeant) coined in saying "this isn't the wild wild west" and then after I again repeated it was legal told the other officers "I don't want to hear anymore from this guy" and they closed the door to the holding area (not entirely as they left ita crack open). I would sit alone for5 minutes before hearing anything clearly in which one officer stated "let's charge him with carrying an unloaded handgun." Another 10 minutes would pass (all the while they were questioning my friend mostly along the lines I would later find out of "is your friend crazy"). My friend would also later inform me of many sarcastic comments such as "it's a nice gun but shitty ammunition." That is probably true but to be honest I don't see much of a difference in paying twice as much to get 3" groups when 6" groups are plenty good to hit a guy from within 50 yards.
But back onto the main plot. I would begin to start laughing to myself at the next set of events. I spotted one of the officers grabbing a very thick book which I knew was a set of the California Penal Code and three of them took turns flipping through trying to find a law to use against me. That would go on for another 10 minutes. They would then open the door and ask me if I was crazy or was mentally deranged and I stated "no." Then for my own kicks (although it probably wasn't the smartest decision) I stated that the closest thing to a law was Section 12031 of the California Penal Code and specifically section G regarding loaded firearms. Another 2-3 minutes of flipping later an officer (the largest officer of the bunch, a white male aged 30-35 nearly completely bald) walked in, released me from my handcuffs, asked me my name, and walked out.
Next the Sergeant and the large officer walked in to question me some more, the female officer also came to question me on my identification. The sergeant would also state that in his 16 years of policing he had never occured the present situation before (which made me all the more proud of doing so). They then proceeded to move me out next to my friend on a bench where 3 of the mall security guards were giving their version of events as well. The officers informed me that I was to be banned from the mall but no charges were going to be pressed against me. They would also proceed to nag me that they were merely doing their job (to which I sarcastically agreed), that I was crazy to do this to which I replied it's perfectly legal. They also told me some information to try and scare me such as "what if a rookie cop was the arresting officer and he shot you." To this I replied I would either take legal recourse against the proper parties or I would simply be dead and that in that case it wouldn't matter.
After that conversation the mall security officers proceeded to take my picture and explain to me the intricacies of the ban (they also provided me with a copy of the ban to which is now proudly attached to my desk). The mall ban is no big loss as I'm quite the cheap skate and paying more than 20 dollars for any article of clothing is exorbitant in the first place in my opinion (unless its for severe weather conditions, etc etc). The officers would then ask me more questions such as had I done this before and if I had been detained for it to which again I stated "no." They were shocked by this and informed me if I open carried in the city of Montclair I was likely to be detained again.
Somewhere along the lineI also informed them I had contacted theCaliforniaAttorney General's office with questions related to open carrying firearms and thatthey stated there was no law against it, pointed me to California Penal Code 12031, andalso stated that the police had the right toat least check if the firearm is unloaded at will (this last part i'm not sure of but i'd rather open the slide of my firearm and showan officer than constantly get hauled down to the station;as to whether the police will take more liberties than this is quite obvious likely but this also provides me with possible information to use against the police in any event).
The sergeant also cracked "where's your Charlton Heston card" to which I quipped back "I don't support the NRA as they agree to surrender too many gun rights in my view." After hearing them out I proceed to ask for my gun and belongings which they provided (although they field stripped my handgun, as if I could not put it back together). I decided against re-assembling my handgun as I didn't want to provide them an oppurtunity to even claim that I was brandishing a firearm (once I got home I eagerly re-assembled my baby). I checked all of my belongings to ensure nothing had gone missing but alas I found the police had lost my cheap pen I was carrying with me. Upon this the two of us proceeded immediately home.
The lessons I learned from this first experience:
- At least until I get some experience under my belt to cooperate fully with the police as this will help smooth along a release from custody.
- Fully read and understand the laws/court cases related to open carrying/firearms if you are going to partake in this as it will help you adequately defend yourself plus school the police on the law they swear to uphold!
- That perhaps if (more likely when)this occurs again I will be more assertive of my legal rights and state they only have the right to check the firearm. Although if any of you can provide legal information/California law related to this I would be most appreciative.
- Being somewhat intelligent and able to make logical reasoning clear for the officers is a definite plus. Making the officers believe you are an upstanding individual who is merely partaking in a legal right helps. Merely spewingconstantly that the 2nd amendment is all you need will probably get more yawns or anger out of the officers than anything else.
- If you don't have a perfect legal record you are probably going to have a much tougher time than I did.
- ALWAYS BRING A PARTNER. Obviously someone you can trust and who is reliable/has a clean record who can provide eye witness testimony in the event shit gets out of hand.
And to note that after this all occured I was in a very joyous mood at out-witting the dopes who serve to "protect and uphold the law."
If anybody has any questions I'll answer them as best I can.
And if you guys are curious one of my reasons I believe in open carrying is to pressure the police in L.A. county to more freely issue CCW permits as I would much prefer to concealed carry but I'm not going to waste the time or the money until I believe I have a reasonable chance of success in acquiring one.
I don't know quotes so I'll end it with a comment of my own (although I'm sure someone else has stated it long before me). A right that goes unexercised is a right that is lost. Don't let the ignorance or fear of others prevent you from fully exercising your rights under the law.