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OC in So Cal

MacKawat

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No offense your too intelligent and well verse CA weapon law and etc. But what is your sole purpose of carrying unloaded handgun? Some criminals may be smart and knows the law just like you do. They know it is only legal to carry openly if weapon is unloaded. They spot you. They sneak on you. You won't even get a chance to take your mag out. Boom its done!
To me open carry is a good thing if you can carry loaded. Even if you can. You still need to practice your draw to the shortest possible time.
Honestly.... I'd be a bit shy to holster my gun openly (unloaded) walking around the mall.
Get your CCW... I think you can prepare a well written good cause and be granted if you happen to pass psychological evaluation testing. Just don't mention
"Shortly thereafter I spotted a police officer (a lady who if I was a criminal could easily have handled)."
 

ConditionThree

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MacKawat wrote:
No offense your too intelligent and well verse CA weapon law and etc. But what is your sole purpose of carrying unloaded handgun? Some criminals may be smart and knows the law just like you do. They know it is only legal to carry openly if weapon is unloaded. They spot you. They sneak on you. You won't even get a chance to take your mag out. Boom its done!
To me open carry is a good thing if you can carry loaded. Even if you can. You still need to practice your draw to the shortest possible time.
Honestly.... I'd be a bit shy to holster my gun openly (unloaded) walking around the mall.
Get your CCW... I think you can prepare a well written good cause and be granted if you happen to pass psychological evaluation testing. Just don't mention
"Shortly thereafter I spotted a police officer (a lady who if I was a criminal could easily have handled)."
There are a number of purposes to lawfully open carrying an unloadedhandgun in California.

1) Political activism-most of California is not "shall issue" and does not recognize the 2A.Carrying lawfully in those counties where issuance is restricted can be a catalyst to real "CCW' LTC reform.

2) Regardless of whether or not it is loaded per 12031, youare two functions from lethal force should you need it- You cannot do this if your weapon is in a locked container in your vehicleor sitting in a safe at home. I would say this form of armed response is more timely than calling the police any any jurisdiction.

3) Crime deterrent- the presence of an armed person in any venue raises the stakes of criminal behavior to life or death should the criminal commit any violent offense. Most criminals 'case' their victims before taking their chance on commitiing a crime- they assess weaknesses, strengths, opportunity, and risks. They do not gravitate to 'hard' targets or victims that are likely to present a significant obstacle to what it is they want. This is why most robberies we see reported are convenience stores. small motels, and taxi cab driverslate at night and not banks with armed guards in broad daylight. Criminals are opportunisitic, cowardly, and rightfully more fearful of an armed citizen than they are of police.

Now, this advice you mete out for our friend to get a "CCW'. In some places in California, the only way you get a license to carry concealed is to be a celebrity or generous political ally to a Sheriff. Itsthat, or you rise up through the ranks of city politics or the judiciary to obtain a LTC.This form of cronyism excludes average people form excersizing a right to protect themselves. It must be apparent to all that some issuing authorities willonly be compeled to issue a LTC concealed by court ruling. It is simply not an option.

On the other hand, there are those that believe that the system, even when issuance is readily available, is only another form of gun control to regulate law abiding citizens. Further, the idea that an applicant should submit to psychological testing before being issued a license is just another excuse to pick and chose who should or should not carry a firearm in self-defense. There are some who will abstain from participating in such a system, when there is an alternative.
 

MacKawat

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Well....Point is why carry if unloaded? Before criminals commit a crime they make sure their weapon are loaded with a round chambered ready to take you down. They will not by any chance give you any notice or allow you to load, chamber, count ten step and draw.
Carrying unloaded weapon is crime deterrent? I disagree. That would be an apple to the eye of the would be criminal I would think. Not only they get your wallet they also get a bonus handgun to sell to other non law abiding buddies to commit more crime.
IMO... a handgun is not a weapon if not loaded. Criminals are very well aware of that.
For me open carry is to be able to carry loaded.
 

CA_Libertarian

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I agree a loaded weapon is better than an unloaded weapon. However, your question implies that you believe that you would be better off with no gun at all than carry unloaded.

You would be correct if 100% of self defense situations were random... and if all criminals were educated and situationally aware... However, not all SD situations arise from opportunistic criminal activity... and certainly not all criminals are educated and situationally aware.

I will admit that a small amount of risk is involved with carrying unloaded versus loaded. However, I doubt this risk is near the risk involved with encounters with LEOs (at least until we get them educated).

Part of the reason we OC is to change the law. Even if my unloaded gun puts me at risk in rare circumstances, that is my contribution to the effort to change the law.

I hope this helps you to understand the importance of what we're doing here in CA.
 

ConditionThree

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MacKawat wrote:
Well....Point is why carry if unloaded? Before criminals commit a crime they make sure their weapon are loaded with a round chambered ready to take you down. They will not by any chance give you any notice or allow you to load, chamber, count ten step and draw.
Carrying unloaded weapon is crime deterrent? I disagree. That would be an apple to the eye of the would be criminal I would think. Not only they get your wallet they also get a bonus handgun to sell to other non law abiding buddies to commit more crime.
IMO... a handgun is not a weapon if not loaded. Criminals are very well aware of that.
For me open carry is to be able to carry loaded.

I have already responded to your question of why anyone wouldopen carry unloaded- I need not repeat my response. You may review it at your leisure.

As for your contention that a firearm is not a deterent- Ask yourself...
Are you sure that all criminals are armed? Are you sure that even when they do carry a gun, that it is even loaded? Are you sure that a criminal will be able to determine whether or not a holstered firearm is loaded? Arethese criminals able to determine an open carrier is a policeman or not?Dont answer, I already know the truth and already know that you cannot know with any certainty.

The fact of the matter is that basic firearms handling tells us that we must treat every firearm as if it is loaded whether or not it actually is. Otherwise we are gambling with our lives. Even the police do no know whether or not a firearm is loaded unless they inspect the weapon and check the chamber- SO how then does a two-bit thug know without inspecting a firearm, whether or not it is a loaded and lethal weapon? They cannot, and to suppose otherwise would be a gamble most people are unwilling to bet on.

The assumption that someone could sneak up and either mug the open carrier or heist his weapon is in my opnion, flawed. First, those who do open carry are not casual carriers as those who conceal carry are inclined to be. Having a weapon exposed reinforces the discipline of situational and environmental awareness. These people arent interested in losing their weapon, and know that any struggle for their weapon rises to the level of life and death whether loaded or unloaded. They practice retention- either in tactics or in hardware such as retention holsters.

In short, if you want to take my gun, you'd better have shot me dead first, because you arent getting it while Im drawing breath. And if that does happen, did I get what I deserved? Was I asking for it? No. It is no different than having shoes, a leather jacket or a car that a thug would slay another person for. The difference is thatI would be justified for defending my weapon with lethal force.

Edited to add: Thinking about it, if what you were saying was true, that a firearm worn openly was only an invitation to be shot or ambushed for the sake of obtaining your weapon- wouldnt we hear many more reports about police being targeted for their firearms? I mean these people strap on firearms and walk around with them for 12 hours a day, four, five, and six days a week. Why arent criminals grabbingweapons from the police?According to your arguement, they arerisking losing a firearm to thugs willing tojack someone's gun simply because its visiable temptation...

Ironically, the only time I have been disarmed was not because of a criminal, but by law enforcement.
 

Hellrazor227

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Haven't been OCing the past few weeks as I'm sure plenty of folks were spooked by the shootings in Nebraska and most of my outings are either driving or to crowded shopping centers. Rest assured though I don't plan on quitting any time soon.
 

Hellrazor227

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Still haven't been OCing out of my own laziness but I think before I begin again I should get some sort of retention holster for my 1911. Can anybody recommend a quality yet inexpensive option for a regular size 1911 (hopefully no more expensive than 30 bucks, but i'm willing to fight through bidding on ebay for quality at the right price).
 

ConditionThree

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Hellrazor227 wrote:
Still haven't been OCing out of my own laziness but I think before I begin again I should get some sort of retention holster for my 1911. Can anybody recommend a quality yet inexpensive option for a regular size 1911 (hopefully no more expensive than 30 bucks, but i'm willing to fight through bidding on ebay for quality at the right price).

My retention holster set me back about $60, but in part, it was due to the fact I was shopping for a Ruger P-89. There simply aren't as many choices. I see someone already has a suggestion for you.

On another note, I think the (our)problem isn't laziness, but the lack of a sidekick who will participate with you (us). An event, even as small as excersizing your right to be defensively armed isn't as much fun when you do not have someone who either supports your decision or will join you in your demonstration. Having the feedback and affirmation we need will encourage not only ourselves, but those observers that support the 2A.
 

marshaul

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Hellrazor227 wrote:
- I carry a Rock Island 1911 .45 with two magazines each containing 8 rounds of ammunition. (I know you'll laugh at the RI but I'm a college student and dropping 700-1000 dollars on a handgun is ill advised and outside of my budget).

Jersey Ron wrote:
Hellrazor, you are one hell of a dude!! And there ain't a god dang thing wrong with a Rock Island .45.

 

 

 

 

Jersey

I own two RIA 1911s. There are easily the best value in 1911dom available. Anybody who doesn't love an RIA doesn't know a Colt from a Llama.

Besides, a relatively inexpensive, accurate, ultra-reliable weapon is just what OC calls for.
 

J.A.G.

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hey dude,

I just read the story of your encounter at the mall. First let me say, congrats for not getting arrested or shot!

2nd. when they banned you from the mall, what was their reason? i can understand if you were running through the building shouting obscenities, or was causing a disturbance with your firearm...but you did nothing wrong. So what was their reasoning?

Your story was very detailed, and I'm sure your heart was pounding and you were nervous as hell through the whole thing. I commend you for the way you handled it. I'm not sure I would have been able to stay so calm.

As for monday afternoon quarterbacking - in general you did the right thing, and you knew the law pretty good. One thing to maybe work on (which I will do as well), is when initially confronted by the 1st responding officers, is to state, the gun is unloaded. If they proceed to do anything other than check to see if your firearm is unloaded, state that what they are doing is illegal. Also have the OC Flyer handy, to show them the law.

To tell you the truth, if I was a cop and someone showed me a piece of paper with "laws" written on it, I wouldn't exactly thing it's legit right of the bat either. But at least its a start.

On a little side note. Did you pistol have an unloaded magazine in it? or were you just carrying it completely empty?

On top of that, does anyone know the rules to carrying the gun with an empty magazine? Is it kosher?

Dude, again, you are a pioneer in the step to the right direction, and I commend you. Hopefully I will get the balls to carry openly here in mainstream LA (hollywood, bev hills, glendale, etc)...
 

avdrummerboy

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Hellrazor, I'm right up the hill from you in Apple Valley, If you are ever up in that area PM me and I'll join you in you OC quest, I don't have a gun yet but misery loves company right :lol:
 

gravedigger

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A mall is private property, so I would be fine with them asking me to not enter their property in the future while in possession of a gun. That is their decision.

If they said, "You are now banned from this mall!" I'd reply, "Gosh, that really wasn't necessary. Since you insist that your customers be unarmed and defenseless at all times, I no longer wish to shop here, to bring my family here or to spend my money here, so I will not be returning again, even if you choose to lift your silly ban. Oh, and if someone does come here one day and shoot a lot of people and the families of the victims sue you, I will be a witness for the prosecution and I will name YOU as an accomplice in the killings since YOU obviously had prior knowledge that the victims were unarmed. Have a nice day."
 

Hellrazor227

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i'll be honest i haven't been open carrying. my mobile home park is within 1000 feet of a school and within every 1/2 mile radius there is a school in my area.

cold feet over the issue is another problem i'm having. i'm flogging myself mentally over this whole issue as I believe in standing up for my rights but talking about it and doing it are two separate things.


edit: and upon catching up on posts both here and at calguns the fact that i have no funds for any such defense makes a cessation in my OCing a more plausible decision. i suppose performing such acts as carrying an empty holster and attempting to inform people are better avenues of attack from my position.

keep up the good work guys
 

Hellrazor227

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i also havent been keeping up on this topic the past few months.... can somebody post me a link to a thread or site with an explanation of this whole incorporation subject?
 

MudCamper

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Hellrazor227 wrote:
i also havent been keeping up on this topic the past few months.... can somebody post me a link to a thread or site with an explanation of this whole incorporation subject?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_(Bill_of_Rights)

Basically, the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights only apply to federal law, and not state law, until after they have been "incorporated" via the 14th Ammendment. So we need to win an incoporation case before we can apply the Heller decision against state law. Once we win incorporation of the 2nd Ammendment, (probably via theNordykecase), then many other state gun-control laws are open to challenge, like 12031 for example. :)
 
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