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Thread: Center Axis Relock

  1. #1
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    Anyone know much about the Center Axis Relock system?

    I remember seeing a video linked on here about general self defense tactics that used it and decided to look into it further. The instructor also was linked to videos with one-armed disarms, etc. Found the thread here:
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...15&forum_id=54

    Description of system:
    http://www.pointshooting.com/carmag.htm


    Wikipedia article:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_Axis_Relock

    According to Wikipedia it's so elite that civilians can't learn it, only LEOs and military. That naturally peaked my interest.

    One of our own is an instructor:
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum60/4865.html

    Edit: Fixed link. Added information.

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    nickerj1 wrote:
    Anyone know much about the Center Axis Relock system?
    After readinganother thread regarding stance I did some research and came across the same links you did, but I didn't post them in that thread because it seemed like it was a bit off topic since Center Axis Relock is a more dynamic shooting system than anything you might use at the range, but it piqued my interest too. Thanks for posting it here. I'm sure it will generate much discussion since it's something that's "reserved for the elite."

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    Moderators, I suggest a forum devoted to Close Quarters Battle

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    I'll have to try this next time I'm at the range. I think it will work better with a glock than it will with my sig, since canting the wrist is going to be easier for me with a glock's shape.

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    So the gist I get is that it's point shooting... but you must first be audited with an E-meter?

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    Looks interesting. Might be something to try at the range.

    Edit: After trying this out with an actual gun (unloaded of course), it seems pretty stable, and at close range it seems like it would be fairly accurate. The only thing I would be worried about is having a .45 that close to my face.

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    FogRider wrote:
    The only thing I would be worried about is having a .45 that close to my face.
    I agree. My Glock 19 ejects casings straight up and back, so unless I was wearing a face shield I don't think I'd be willing to practice shooting from that position.

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    Tried this with unloaded guns and found that I was right about it working with Glocks, and most other guns being uncomfortable.

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    I researched this last year and tried it at the range a few times. It doesn'tworkwell unless the target you are engaging is within 10 feet of you. And... if your target is within 10 feet, who is going to look down the sights anyways? I also like it when a company advertises something (in this case training) that is "not available" to the general public.



    Edit: Watch the videos on the page below, notice how close he is to the target?

    http://www.sabretactical.com/High_Sp...eed_video.html

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    ...in that first video he's getting grazed in the vest by his slide cycling. He's lucky to have a hard vest on. A little bit of a mis-angle, or an all-out full-frontal and that's gonna be one hurting solar plexus. That's at least 20lb of force in a 1" blunt object right on your midsection. Ouch.
    -Unrequited

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    When I was 21 I bought my first handgun, which was a Ruger Mark II .22 semiauto pistol. The first time I shot it I gripped it with my right hand, cupped my right hand with my left, curled my left thumb over my right hand behind the slide and then I pulled the trigger.

    It took about a monthfor the skin to grow properly back over that knuckle on my thumb. I learnt a lesson that day.

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    unrequited wrote:
    ...in that first video he's getting grazed in the vest by his slide cycling. He's lucky to have a hard vest on. A little bit of a mis-angle, or an all-out full-frontal and that's gonna be one hurting solar plexus. That's at least 20lb of force in a 1" blunt object right on your midsection. Ouch.
    Use a revolver?

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    Use a revolver?
    That's what I was thinking. Of course I'm not elite enough to learn any of this so why bother :P

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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    imperialism2024 wrote:
    Use a revolver?
    That's what I was thinking. Of course I'm not elite enough to learn any of this so why bother :P
    The revolver could work I suppose. And I don't think it has any "elitness" about it, it seems to be alot of common sence stuff. If you are poing to point-shoot (or whatever you want to call it), you might as well do it from a position that you can lock into, and makes you a smaller target.

    Edit: Payday tomorrow, so I will try to get to the range and try this. Will let you know how many slide-shaped bruises I come home with.

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    FogRider wrote:
    And I don't think it has any "elitness" about it, it seems to be alot of common sence stuff. If you are poing to point-shoot (or whatever you want to call it), you might as well do it from a position that you can lock into, and makes you a smaller target.

    Edit: Payday tomorrow, so I will try to get to the range and try this. Will let you know how many slide-shaped bruises I come home with.
    I was making a joke about whomever developed the system stating they only train LEO and military on it...

    But yes, please share the bruises with us! Am curious how well it would work with my P89...

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    This method has always felt awkward and counter-intuitive to me. It seems like it's only handyif you happened to be incertain close-quarters, unusual positions.

    But then I'm not HighSpeedLowDragHighAltitudeLowOpeningSpecialForce sAirborneAssaultDeltaSealMeuSocTacticalCommandoRan ger certified either, just a guy who puts several thousand rounds downrange per year and manages to hit center mass more often than not.

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    Well, I took my XD to the range to try this out, an I got only mixed results. I couldn't hit jack holding it right up next to my chest as shown in the article (never hit myself, but it is a pretty unnerving place to shoot from), but when I switched to a position about halfway between the first one shown and the one where the guy is shooting out the car window, I was at least able to get shots on paper. Left hand was just in front of my shoulder, elbow tucked in tight. Right forearm parallel with my chest and the ground, about 2" from my chest. After I got used to it, I was able to keep my shots in the chest region, and shoot alot faster than normal (5 rounds in under 2 seconds is pretty damn fast for me). This was probably due to not trying to regain a sight picture, and being able to get the muzzle reset faster.
    Not my favorite position, but would definitely work in a defensive situation.

    50ish rounds at 15yd:


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    Hmpf, maybe I'll try this over the weekend with the .44 magnum Redhawk.

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    I can place shots pretty accuratelywith a pretty highshots per second at 21 feet without using this CAR system. I've seen people shoot more accurately than me at even higher shots per second, using a standard isoceles stance.

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    Hi Everyone. I have a lot of experience with the CAR system and I'vehad formal training on this system and have taught it informally as well. Let me just say that CAR (or IPDS as its marketed in the civillian sector) is very difficult to grasp without formal training. There is more to it than meets the eye and itwill benot only ineffective if done improperly, but also very dangerous.

    I haven'theard ofa single person yet thats gone through the course that has not completely embraced the system. It works. Personally I was shooting master level IPDA using mod Iso before CAR and even at that level I've all but abandoned iso for CAR because I feel its that good. When I took the class there were 3 other new shooters with me who were shooting somewhere around the 3 shot / second speed with ok accuracy at best. By the end of the class everyone was in the 5-6 rounds / second speed all shooting fist sized groups both to the body and head from the high and extended positions. This may sound far fetched, but I asure you its not. The system enables the shooter to fire their weapon with 85% reduced felt recoil, whichallows formultiple shots at high speed. I have not found anything more practical for "real life" defensive shooting. We know that most gunfights happen in the 3' to 7 yard range so why is so much emphasis placed on 10,15 even 25 yard shooting? The chances of you having to shoot it out at 25 yards is slim. Training should be done to reflect reality and reality has shown that when "it" happens, it happens in your face and fast. CAR allows you to respond to these types of situations.

    CAR is a great tool for CQ shooting, but dont think that its ineffective for distance. With practice accurate hits can be made out to 25 yards if need be. By pushing out to something that resembles a traditional weaver, 25 yrd shots can be made with ease.



    I have some videos of myself and others shooting CAR that you guys can check out if you'd like. Go to www.photobucket.com and then type in "E_Close-tac" in the search bar and then go to "view album of user...".

    Let me know what you think. Take Care!

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    evan1293 wrote:
    Hi Everyone. I have a lot of experience with the CAR system and I'vehad formal training on this system and have taught it informally as well. Let me just say that CAR (or IPDS as its marketed in the civillian sector) is very difficult to grasp without formal training. There is more to it than meets the eye and itwill benot only ineffective if done improperly, but also very dangerous.

    I haven'theard ofa single person yet thats gone through the course that has not completely embraced the system. It works. Personally I was shooting master level IPDA using mod Iso before CAR and even at that level I've all but abandoned iso for CAR because I feel its that good. When I took the class there were 3 other new shooters with me who were shooting somewhere around the 3 shot / second speed with ok accuracy at best. By the end of the class everyone was in the 5-6 rounds / second speed all shooting fist sized groups both to the body and head from the high and extended positions. This may sound far fetched, but I asure you its not. The system enables the shooter to fire their weapon with 85% reduced felt recoil, whichallows formultiple shots at high speed. I have not found anything more practical for "real life" defensive shooting. We know that most gunfights happen in the 3' to 7 yard range so why is so much emphasis placed on 10,15 even 25 yard shooting? The chances of you having to shoot it out at 25 yards is slim. Training should be done to reflect reality and reality has shown that when "it" happens, it happens in your face and fast. CAR allows you to respond to these types of situations.

    CAR is a great tool for CQ shooting, but dont think that its ineffective for distance. With practice accurate hits can be made out to 25 yards if need be. By pushing out to something that resembles a traditional weaver, 25 yrd shots can be made with ease.



    I have some videos of myself and others shooting CAR that you guys can check out if you'd like. Go to http://www.photobucket.com and then type in "E_Close-tac" in the search bar and then go to "view album of user...".

    Let me know what you think. Take Care!
    Nice videos. Better quality than the other stuff I've found about it.

    In the relaxed position, how do you know what angle to raise the gun to switch from chest to head? Practice with varying distances from your target? I know I definitely wouldn't feel comfortable shooting like that in a semi-crowded area, but you seem to be rather accurate while in the relaxed position.


    Train yourself to go to the same exact reference position and just practice varying the angle? Or is there more to it?

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    You've got the right idea....practice it at different distances. One thing to keep in mind is that the relaxed position (high position as its refered to in CAR) is not the preferred shooting position. You would utilize this like basically any other retention position from other shooting platforms....at close range. The high p. is ideally for within 5/6' when your adversary is trying to grab your weapon. Shooting from the high will allow you to respond with a fierce assault of elbows, pistol punches, and shots to the body/ head. The high position works off an idexcreated by your body position to the target. Your body forms the base of the letter L and the target is the vertical section. With the gun always held parallel with the ground and the plane of your shoulders you can then line up on your tartet with your shoulders making the letter L on your target. The thickness of your body will place the gun roughly center on your targer and you can then fire and expect center hits. To go to the head, lean back some. The further you go back shooting from this position the less movement in your lean you need to make. Incidently, I have found the faster I shoot from the high the tighter my groups.



    Whenever space, and time permits, Im always going to the sights in the extended position. Its less than .05 seconds slower than drawing to the high and shooting from there (believe me, I've experimented a lot with it.) In the extended position I can place deep center hits at full speed (.15 split times) out to 10 yards. Past 10y I have to slow down a little bit. These results are common for what I've seen in people that have spent a good deal of time training with CAR. It really is the system that enables this kind of shooting.

    Weapons with short trigger resets work best for CAR. This is why you see so many people shooting glocks with center axis relock. It will work with any weapon however, even revolvers due to its recoil reducing characteristics.

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    Impressive shooting evan1293! I am going to have to look into this a lot more.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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