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CA - 911 call of man that shot and killed 2 people that were burglarizing the house next door

tarzan1888

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HankT wrote:
tarzan1888 wrote:
When I first heard the story and the recording I was not sure what I thought.

I have read all of the posts and it is now clear to me that he was within his rights in shooting the felons who were robbing his neighbor. They were armed with crowbars...
How do you know that they were armed with crowbars?

How do you know they weren't?

Killing of burglars spurs legal debate
Texan shot pair after break-in next door

By Miguel Bustillo
November 26, 2007

PASADENA, Texas - When he saw two men using a crowbar to enter his neighbor's house this month, Joe Horn did what many people would do: He called 911.
But when police had not shown up by the time the men were about to leave, the 61-year-old retiree did something most people probably would not: He put down the phone, stepped outside with his shotgun and killed them.
"I'm not going to let them get away with this," Horn told the 911 dispatcher, who responded: "Property's not worth killing someone over."
Seconds later, the sound of a gun being loaded was captured on the 911 tape, followed by the warning: "Move [and] you're dead" and then three bursts of gunfire. Miguel DeJesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, died from their wounds. Both had histories of committing small-time crimes.
The recording of Horn's anger, frustration and willingness to take the law into his own hands has made him the focus of a national dispute. Critics condemn him as a vigilante bent on meting out murderous justice. Admirers praise him as a courageous hero whom any law abider would love to have next door.
"Why is he still a free man?" Linda E. Edwards wrote in a letter to The Houston Chronicle.
"Joe Horn gets a Texas 'attaboy' from me," countered John E. Meagher in the next letter on the page, adding: "Justice was served, law or not."
As the debate rages on talk radio and cable news shows, Horn remains free. However, according to his attorney, he is so overwrought with grief and overwhelmed by the glare of publicity that he has left his home in this blue-collar Houston suburb.
"Joe has never been anything but a gentle person. He's not the type of monster that they are making him out to be," attorney Tom Lambright said in an interview with Houston radio host Michael Berry.
Lambright did not return requests for comment.
Authorities are investigating what happened Nov. 14, but they plan to let a Harris County grand jury decide whether Horn, a former computer consultant, should be indicted for any crimes.
"This is not an individual who stepped outside and gunned down two pedestrians on the sidewalk," said Pasadena police Capt. A.H. "Bud" Corbett. "In a situation where there is some uncertainty about which side of the law someone was on, the best thing to do is assemble all the information and present it to the grand jury."
Noting Texans' prevailing populist views on guns and self-defense - and the sharply mixed reaction to what Horn did - legal experts differ over whether a jury of his peers would ever indict him. They also differ on whether one should, given a Texas law known as the "castle doctrine" that permits citizens to use deadly force to defend their homes and cars.
Tommy LaFon, a Houston defense attorney and former prosecutor who has argued about 50 disputed shooting cases before grand juries, said Horn's lawyers may be able to claim that his actions were legal because he was acting as the de facto defender of his neighbor's property.
"If a jury believes he was standing in the shoes of the owner, that might affect their decision," LaFon said.
Critics of the way the case has been handled say the 911 tape is proof that Horn had determined to shoot the robbers before stepping outside with his gun.
Noting that Horn is white and the suspects were dark-skinned, Quanell X, a Houston activist, accused authorities of bias. Horn should be charged with murder, he said.
"Mr. Horn did not have to kill those people," Quanell X said during a protest. "Mr. Horn became judge, jury and executioner."


Miguel Bustillo writes for the Los Angeles Times.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation/bal-te.shooting26nov26,0,6357192.story

Tarzan
 

tarzan1888

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bayboy42 wrote:
And there it is........the inevitable "girl" comment from Tarzan :banghead:




What and I'm supposed to call her a man? :what:

The use of hergender in my comment has nothing, for me but positive connotations.

I hold women in the highest regards. (I really, really like women)

check out the above pose where I made no reference to her gender.



Tarzan
 

HankT

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tarzan1888 wrote:
HankT wrote:
tarzan1888 wrote:
When I first heard the story and the recording I was not sure what I thought.

I have read all of the posts and it is now clear to me that he was within his rights in shooting the felons who were robbing his neighbor. They were armed with crowbars...
How do you know that they were armed with crowbars?

How do you know they weren't?



After the shooting, he redialed 911.

“I had no choice,” he said, his voice shaking. “They came in

the front yard with me, man. I had no choice. Get somebody over here quick.” [suP]1[/suP]



Interesting, that Horn did not mention the "crowbars" in talking to the dispatcher after he shot the two burglars. Interesting, too, that Horn's lawyer has made many statements about Horn defending himself but he has not mentioned any "crowbars" in any of those statements. Interestinng, again, that DPD hasn't stated that there wereany crowbars in the hands of the burglars when they got shot--or whether there were ever any crowbars at all...

Horn did, of course, mention that he had seen one crowbar being used to break in the neighbors house.

So, again, T1888: How do you know that they were armed with crowbars? And how many crowbars do you think there were? Two? More than two? Why?

1. http://www.khou.com/news/local/stories/khou071126_tnt_burglarshooting.41772f2e.html
 

deepdiver

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I too thought I recalled the atty saying that the perps had a crowbar with them at the time Horn shot them, but googling for articles I do not find that to be the case. The closest thing I could find was from the Houston Cronicle:

"Lambright contended that Horn was startled to find the burglars just 15 feet from his front door when he stepped onto his porch. "He was petrified at that point," the lawyer said. "You hear him say, 'I'll shoot. Stop!' They jumped. Joe thought they were coming for him. It's a self-defense issue.""
 

openryan

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Diamond Morgan, Diego Ortiz’s widow and mother of their 8-month-old son, told Houston television station KTRK that she was stunned by Horn’s comments on the 911 call.
“It’s horrible,” she said. “He was so eager, so eager to shoot.”




Yes, thats right Ms. Morgan...it was horrible your husband was shot dead, while you were probably at home fully aware of what he was out doing, and moreso, probably condoned it.

Your husband, was so eager, so eager to steal, it's horrible.
 

expvideo

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HankT wrote:
After the shooting, he redialed 911.

“I had no choice,” he said, his voice shaking. “They came in

the front yard with me, man. I had no choice. Get somebody over here quick.” [suP]1[/suP]



Interesting, that Horn did not mention the "crowbars" in talking to the dispatcher after he shot the two burglars. Interesting, too, that Horn's lawyer has made many statements about Horn defending himself but he has not mentioned any "crowbars" in any of those statements. Interestinng, again, that DPD hasn't stated that there wereany crowbars in the hands of the burglars when they got shot--or whether there were ever any crowbars at all...

Horn did, of course, mention that he had seen one crowbar being used to break in the neighbors house.

So, again, T1888: How do you know that they were armed with crowbars? And how many crowbars do you think there were? Two? More than two? Why?

1. http://www.khou.com/news/local/stories/khou071126_tnt_burglarshooting.41772f2e.html


First of all, he didn't call back. He set the phone down, shot the BGs, and came back and picked the phone back up.


Second, He just shot two people. He's probably a little too traumatized to be giving any clear details to the operator. It's easy to monday morning quarterback this and point out things that he did or didn't say, but the fact of the matter is that he just blew two people away, and he probably was a little too shook up about it to be saying anything more useful than what he said.
 

tarzan1888

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HankT wrote:
After the shooting, he redialed 911.

“I had no choice,” he said, his voice shaking. “They came in

the front yard with me, man. I had no choice. Get somebody over here quick.” [suP]1[/suP]



........Horn did, of course, mention that he had seen one crowbar being used to break in the neighbors house.

So, again, T1888: How do you know that they were armed with crowbars? And how many crowbars do you think there were? Two? More than two? Why?

1. http://www.khou.com/news/local/stories/khou071126_tnt_burglarshooting.41772f2e.html


By your own post the crowbars become a mute point.

They were in his front yard and there were crowbars/crowbar present; “They came in

the front yard with me, man. I had no choice. Get somebody over here quick.”


You did leave out the part where his Lawyer stated that they both lunged for him.

"Horn is 61 and heavyset. The suspected burglars were young and strong enough to beat him to death with their bare hands, Lambright said. So when one or both of them “made lunging movements,” Horn fired. "

http://www.khou.com/topstories/stories/khou071126_tnt_burglarshooting.41772f2e.html

If you see an old fatbald grandpa looking guy holding a shotgun and you move toward him into his yard and not away from him, it has to be that you feel that the two of you can take this old guy before he gets a shot off. They were wrong and paid for it with their lives.

M_IMAGE.1163daadc82.93.88.fa.d0.d2714d8.jpg


Joe Horn

The fact that they were in his yard and neither one of them took it in the back, tells me that at that point in time he truly had no choice.

Could he have stayed in his house and let them alone, yes he could.

As far as what he said BEFORE he went out, well we all have a little bravado when we are talking about doing something, but when he picked up the phone the second time it was a very humble man on the phone.

I truly believe that what he said the second time is the truth, and He will be troubled until the day he dies by what happened.

"Horn “literally went to pieces” after the shooting, Lambright said. He issued a statement a few days later saying the events would weigh heavily on him for the rest of his life."

Tarzan
 

deepdiver

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Good points Tarzan.

I have said to people who have asked me if I could/would really shoot and kill someone in self-defense that yes, I steeled myself mentally to that possibility before I ever carried a gun, however, I also made sure that when I renewed my business's health insurance policy it had mental health coverage because if I ever do have to kill someone I'm probably going to be in therapy dealing with it, no matter how justified the shooting. I find that understanding to be pretty common among people I know who carry. Regardless of talk about ballistic lethality, stopping power, combat/defense tactics, etc, underlying all that is the very real hope, for most firearm owners, that they never have to discharge their defensive weapon for any purpose other than putting holes in paper.
 

imperialism2024

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deepdiver wrote:
Good points Tarzan.

I have said to people who have asked me if I could/would really shoot and kill someone in self-defense that yes, I steeled myself mentally to that possibility before I ever carried a gun, however, I also made sure that when I renewed my business's health insurance policy it had mental health coverage because if I ever do have to kill someone I'm probably going to be in therapy dealing with it, no matter how justified the shooting. I find that understanding to be pretty common among people I know who carry. Regardless of talk about ballistic lethality, stopping power, combat/defense tactics, etc, underlying all that is the very real hope, for most firearm owners, that they never have to discharge their defensive weapon for any purpose other than putting holes in paper.
However, given that we don't know whether or not this shooting was in fact in self-defense (and the shooter's comments in the tape suggest that it was not), the more relevant question is, could/would you really shoot and kill someone not in self-defense?
 

deepdiver

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Actually that question was not at all the point of my post. I was responding to Tarzan and the mental issue. I guess I should have been more clear.
The fact that they were in his yard and neither one of them took it in the back, tells me that at that point in time he truly had no choice.
Agree that this is most likely the case.

Could he have stayed in his house and let them alone, yes he could.
Probably wishes he did.

As far as what he said BEFORE he went out, well we all have a little bravado when we are talking about doing something, but when he picked up the phone the second time it was a very humble man on the phone.
Absolutely agree and I had considered posting a similar comment.

I truly believe that what he said the second time is the truth, and He will be troubled until the day he dies by what happened. "Horn “literally went to pieces” after the shooting, Lambright said. He issued a statement a few days later saying the events would weigh heavily on him for the rest of his life."
This was the paragraph I was mostly responding to in my prior post.

My apologies for not being more clear in my point.
 

tarzan1888

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imperialism2024 wrote:
However, given that we don't know whether or not this shooting was in fact in self-defense (and the shooter's comments in the tape suggest that it was not), the more relevant question is, could/would you really shoot and kill someone not in self-defense?



You have such a selective mind. The statements of Joe Horn AFTER he shot the criminals, sound very much like self defense, “They came in

the front yard with me, man. I had no choice. Get somebody over here quick.”



The whole world is full of big talk before something happens. It is usually very different, what is said AFTER it happens.

Have you ever talked to a WWII vet about before and after the battle?

Before the battle its I am going to do this or that and then after the battle the truth is that they were just doing what they could to stay alive.

If two young strong guys are lunging at a fat old guy WITH A GUN, they must be intent on taking him out.

My comment about considering the source reflects on your obvious aversion to any self-defence justification for the use of firearms.

Tarzan
 

tarzan1888

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deepdiver wrote:
Actually that question was not at all the point of my post. I was responding to Tarzan and the mental issue. I guess I should have been more clear.
The fact that they were in his yard and neither one of them took it in the back, tells me that at that point in time he truly had no choice.
Agree that this is most likely the case.

Could he have stayed in his house and let them alone, yes he could.
Probably wishes he did.

As far as what he said BEFORE he went out, well we all have a little bravado when we are talking about doing something, but when he picked up the phone the second time it was a very humble man on the phone.
Absolutely agree and I had considered posting a similar comment.

I truly believe that what he said the second time is the truth, and He will be troubled until the day he dies by what happened. "Horn “literally went to pieces” after the shooting, Lambright said. He issued a statement a few days later saying the events would weigh heavily on him for the rest of his life."
This was the paragraph I was mostly responding to in my prior post.

My apologies for not being more clear in my point.

You were very clear to anyone who wished to see.



Tarzan
 

hamourkiller

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Nov. 27, 2007, 12:05AM
Lawyer: Pasadena man shot suspects out of fear
Joe Horn has yet to be charged in the killings of 2 accused of burglarizing his neighbor's home


By LIZ AUSTIN PETERSON
Associated Press


HOUSTON — A man who told police he planned to kill two men he believed were burglarizing his neighbor's house shot them only when they came on his property and he felt threatened, his attorney said on Monday.

Tom Lambright, who represents Joe Horn of Pasadena, said his client was just going to take a look around when he went outside after hearing glass break at his neighbor's house. He had seen Miguel Antonio DeJesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, crawling into and then out of a window, Lambright said.

Horn went outside, armed with a 12-gauge shotgun, to see where the suspects were heading when he came face-to-face with them in Horn's front yard, Lambright said.

Horn is 61 and heavyset. The suspected burglars were young and strong enough to beat him to death with their bare hands, Lambright said. So when one or both of them "made lunging movements," Horn fired, Lambright said.

"He's trying to protect his own life," Lambright said. "He's scared."

Pasadena police were still compiling their report on the shooting and planned to present the case to Harris County prosecutors within the next two weeks, police spokesman Vance Mitchell said on Monday. From there it is expected to be presented to a grand jury. In the meantime, Horn remains uncharged.

Lambright's description is partly at odds with the 911 call in which a dispatcher urges Horn to stay inside his house and not risk lives.

"Don't go outside the house," the 911 operator pleaded. "You're gonna get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun. I don't care what you think."

"You wanna make a bet?" Horn answered. "I'm gonna kill 'em."

After the shooting, he re-dialed 911.

"I had no choice," he said, his voice shaking. "They came in the front yard with me, man. I had no choice. Get somebody over here quick."

Diamond Morgan, Diego Ortiz's wife and mother of their 8-month-old son, told TV station KTRK that she was stunned by Horn's comments on the 911 call.

"It's horrible," she said. "He was so eager, so eager to shoot."

But Horn "literally went to pieces" after the shooting, Lambright said. He issued a statement a few days later saying the events would weigh heavily on him for the rest of his life.

He's doing better, however, as he reads letters and e-mails and hears radio broadcasts of people supporting his actions, Lambright said.

"I'm not going to tell you that he still doesn't regret what had happened," Lambright said. "He just said, 'Tom, I had no choice. I had no choice.'

"He's right in that. He really did not."

Texas law allows people to use deadly force to protect themselves if it is reasonable to believe they could otherwise be killed. In limited circumstances, people also can use deadly force to protect their neighbor's property; for example, if a homeowner asks a neighbor to watch over his property while he's out of town.

The question will be whether it was reasonable for Horn to fear the men and whether his earlier threats on the 911 call showed he planned to kill them no matter what, said Fred Moss, who teaches criminal law at Southern Methodist University.

"That's what makes it so hard and that's why we have juries," Moss said.
 

cloudcroft

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Well, since it's certainly true that lots of punks will not be intimidated by someone with a gun, will walk toward you while talking sh*t and pretty much make you shoot them -- or else -- Horn's explanation sounds quite plausible to me.

Case closed.

...and give him a Public Service Action Medal as well as a box of whatever ammo he was using.

-- John D.
 

Doug Huffman

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http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/5346880.html Houston Chronicle

HOUSTON — Protesters critical of a homeowner who fatally shot two suspected burglars were confronted by hundreds of the man's supporters during a rally on the street where the killings occurred.

Yard signs declaring support for Joe Horn, 61, lined nearby streets Sunday in the Pasadena neighborhood where Miguel Antonio DeJesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, were killed Nov. 14.

Horn's supporters parked motorcycles along the block Sunday and jeered protesters who called for Horn to be prosecuted. The supporters waved American flags and hoisted signs reading, "We love our neighbor for protecting our neighbors" and "Burglary is a risky business."

Police officers in riot gear monitored the activities, but no arrests were made.

Horn's attorney has said his client believed the two men had broken into his neighbor's home and that he shot them only when they came into his yard and threatened him.

But that description is partly at odds with Horn's call to 911 in which Horn threatens to kill the men despite the dispatcher's urging that Horn stay inside his house.

"I support our rights as Americans to protect ourselves and support our Second Amendment rights," said Aaron Morrow, 43, one of dozens of bikers who revved their engines each time activist Quanell X attempted to speak.

Quanell X has said that Horn, who is white, should be charged with murder for shooting DeJesus and Ortiz, who were black. After Sunday's counter-protest, he said he doesn't know if the shootings were racially motivated but said he "wouldn't be surprised."

The families of the shooting victims were present Sunday.

"Our position is that we do not condone their actions. We condemn their actions," Quanell X said. "But Horn acted as police officer, judge, jury and executioner all at the same time."

Michelle Howell, who lives down the street from Horn, said she was in disbelief that the event had taken on racial overtones.

"First of all, this is a quiet place, secondly we've got neighbors of all different races. This has nothing to do with race," she said.

Maritza Munoz marched with the members of the New Black Panther Nation. "Yes, they broke into people's houses, but it wasn't his right to kill them. What he (Horn) did was criminal," she said.

Horn has not been charged in the case. Pasadena police spokesman Vance Mitchell said the department will turn over its case to the Harris County District Attorney's Office in seven to 10 days. From there it is expected to be presented to a grand jury.

Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed hwere they will, with wits and guns and the truth. LAB/NRA/GOP KMA$$
 

unrequited

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(wrote this up for another forum)

http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=8973

...so the Black Panthers show up as a "show of force" and to bring the race card to an already tense situation. They're surrounded by the community and I'm surprised a riot didn't break out. There was almost no police presence.

While trying to make a speech of some sort, an entire motor cycle gang drown out any hopes of a message.

The Black Panthers take off... or should I say are "escorted" to their car amongst chants of "U-S-A! U-S-A!"

I'm glad this guy's community is behind him 100%. It's going to be a tough fight.
 

Doug Huffman

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http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5349444.html

Dec. 4, 2007, 12:03AM
Columnist: In Horn case, self-defense isn't so clear

There seems to be some confusion here. Joe Horn is not a hero.
The Pasadena homeowner certainly had a chance to be a hero, but he gave up that opportunity as soon as he allowed fear, adrenaline, suburban angst, Old West entitlement or all of the aforementioned to overwhelm his ability to think rationally and consider the consequences of his actions.
Let's imagine, for a moment, that the whole ordeal had turned out differently, that after the 61-year-old computer consultant called 911 to report a burglary next door on that November afternoon, he had followed the dispatcher's advice and stayed safely inside his house.
He still could have provided descriptions of the bad guys and let police know which way they were fleeing. He could have stood guard, loaded shotgun in hand, just in case the burglars preyed on his house next.
The headlines could have portrayed him as vigilant rather than vigilante: "Homeowner helps nab burglars," or "Hometown hero praised for being good neighbor."

Ignored pleadingsMost importantly, Miguel Antonio DeJesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, both of Houston, would still be alive. But Horn didn't stay inside. He ignored the dispatcher's pleadings, grabbed his shotgun and charged out the front door to confront DeJesus and Ortiz, after uttering damning statements like "I'm not going to let them get away with it," and "I'm gonna kill them."
Horn's attorney and longtime friend Tom Lambright argues that his client acted in self-defense, that he thought he saw the alleged burglars lunging at him. Really? If the bad guys were armed only with a crowbar — the only weapon Horn mentions in the 911 call — would they really be lunging at a large man wielding a 12-gauge shotgun?
It will be up to a Harris County grand jury to decide whether Horn's actions were criminal.
Although a Texas law allows citizens to use deadly force to protect neighbors' property, some experts say the statute only applies to nighttime incidents.

Race muddies issueMeanwhile, Horn has had to flee to an undisclosed location to escape the media attention. And Quanell X and cohorts are staging protests outside his house in an attempt to brand him a racist. Horn's supporters, some armed with a fleet of revving motorcycles, staged a dueling demonstration over the weekend. I agree with the Horn supporters on one point: the race debate only muddies the issue. There's no reason to believe his actions were racially motivated.
But I am confounded by the rah-rah zeal with which some armchair vigilantes have celebrated Horn's actions. Some readers' comments on the Houston Chronicle Web site suggest the burglars "deserved what they got." Last time I checked, the penalty for burglary didn't include death.
At the demonstration, hundreds had signed the back of signs that seemed to suggest getting trigger-happy with a shotgun is as Texan as bluebonnets or the Lone Star flag.
"We're just citizens standing up for another citizen who chose to protect himself," said one demonstrator.
On some level, I understand the urge of residents overwhelmed and frustrated with crime to hold up Horn as a hero. He's the guy who fought back.
But Horn's isn't a clear case of self-defense. If it were, his name would be as unfamiliar to you as Gerald Lynn Southworth.
Southworth, a 60-year-old Porter property owner, also used his gun to fatally shoot someone he suspected of stealing. But Southworth's story a few days ago didn't grab national headlines. It was buried on Page B3 of this paper. Why? Because it appeared Southworth really was defending his own property.

Contrasting shootingsSouthworth had reported thefts from his address two days before and had stayed overnight to guard his property. The suspect was still lying on Southworth's lawn when authorities arrived. Still, these two men have something in common. When it was all over, neither seemed proud of what he'd done.
Horn was "devastated" and in need of a sedative after the shooting, Lambright said. A statement Horn issued said the killings would "weigh heavily on me for the rest of my life. My thoughts go out to the loved ones of the deceased."
Southworth had to be taken to the hospital because of chest pains after the shooting.
"I am sorry as hell," Southworth told KTRK (Channel 13). "I just wished there had been another way to resolve this."
In Horn's case, there was a better way. He just refused to take it.
lisa.falkenberg@chron.com
 

dng

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I receive Glenn Beck's daily newsletter, and he included a link in the email for yesterday that had about a 10 minute video of this all happening. I don't have access to email right now, but maybe someone else has the link and can post it.
 
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