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Thread: Salt Lake Tribune coverage of our Open Carry Luncheon!!! Heres the article!!

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    Here it is!! What a great article, that makes 2 awesome articles in 2 months....I can't wait for number 3. Here's is the link: http://www.sltrib.com/ci_7496036

    --

    Utahns exercise right to openly carry firearms
    More citizens pack heat in plain view; legality remains a murky area
    Salt Lake Tribune: Utahns exercise right to openly carry firearms


    By Glen Warchol
    The Salt Lake Tribune


    Article Last Updated:11/18/2007 01:28:52 AM MST

    LAYTON - Among the things that make Utah a special place are its gun laws. Love 'em or hate 'em, they often make living, working and even dining in the state a visceral experience, hearkening back to the heady days of Deadwood and Dodge City.
    Most Utahns are aware their state issues an easily obtained concealed-weapon permit. By passing a background check and basic course in gun safety, anyone over 21 can qualify to carry an undercover gun.
    But in how many places, outside parts of Africa and the Middle East, can you legally stroll down the street with a semi-automatic carbine slung over your shoulder, let alone a handgun on your hip?
    "Any citizen over 18 can protect themselves by openly carrying a firearm," says Brian Nelson, an emergency vehicle equipment salesman who lives in Layton. Nelson is the spokesman for the Utah branch of OpenCarry.org, a national network organization whose motto is "A right unexercised is a right lost."
    Last month, Utah OpenCarry.org began a monthly "lunch group" to talk about gun rights while openly carrying handguns. Twenty-five members met at the Golden Corral in Layton on Saturday.
    Joe Smith, a computer programmer from Lehi, joined the group for lunch with his wife, Tiffney, and 9-week-old son Paxton. Why does Smith feel the need to pack a 9mm Hi-Point semi-auto on his hip?
    "Right here," he says, nodding toward his wife and son. "They're the reason."
    "It seems we are seeing more and more of it." says Ed Phillips, deputy commissioner of the Utah Department of Public Safety, about the "open-carry" phenomenon.
    Phillips has asked the state police academy to address the legalities of open-carry with cadets. It's only reasonable to go on alert when someone encounters an armed person, but it's unclear to many how to respond, Phillips says. "There is a lot of confusion, even among law enforcement officers."

    Don't look in state statutes for a concise law covering the ins and outs of packing iron in public. It's not directly addressed.
    "It's legal because it's not illegal," says Clark Aposhian, a firearms instructor and lobbyist for the National Rifle Association. "Ask five cops about open-carry and you'll get five different answers."

    Nelson says many of the questions linger because "People don't exercise their right often at all." He openly carries his sidearm, even though he has a concealed weapon permit, a few times a week. "It's my right to defend myself."
    Exposure builds tolerance, Nelson says of regular forays by group members into restaurants and shopping malls. "People have to be exposed to my lifestyle to be tolerant of it."

    Still, property rights trump the Second Amendment. If a property owner objects to someone packing a weapon, he can ask them to leave or face trespassing charges.
    Nelson, a part-time firearms instructor, and Aposhian don't recommend open-carry unless the citizen takes some firearms training, including weapon "retention."
    Having a law-abiding citizen's gun hijacked is a concern of many police officers, says Lt. Douglas Anderson of the Utah Department of Public Safety, head of the state's concealed weapon permit program.

    "Police officers are trained to protect their weapon from being taken from them," he says, but even concealed-weapon courses seldom address it.
    Beyond training, much of the so-called "open-carry lifeƂstyle" comes down to convenience, common sense and good manners.

    "It's a complete life change," says Nelson. "The minute you put a firearm on, you need to know the consequences of it and what is proper and not proper to do."
    Aposhian, for instance, says he avoids openly carrying in certain places, such as banks and schools, where he might disturb "decorum." "I don't pick my nose in public, either," he says.

    Says Nelson: "I don't usually open-carry into a bank. There are some things that don't go together - guns and banks are one. But that's a person's personal preference."
    Anderson, Nelson and Aposhian agree on one thing: From a purely self-defense point of view, open carry is a bad idea.
    "Tactically speaking, if a bad guy comes into a restaurant and sees your gun, who do you think he's going to shoot first?" Aposhian says.
    Anderson agrees and adds that the citizen has sacrificed the advantage of surprise.

    But many open-carry advocates argue that when a criminal sees an armed citizen, "It's going to click for them that they should find an easier target," Nelson says.
    Speaking as a law officer, Anderson says that all things considered, "I don't know if Utah law enforcement is ready for open carry circumstances."
    But if the practice is going to increase, law officers need latitude to check that guns and owners are street legal, without violating search and detention protections, he says.

    The state board that oversees concealed firearms instructors in July approved a request to the attorney general for a legal opinion on open-carry. But the request has yet to make it past the Department of Public Safety, says Aposhian, the board's chairman.
    "We have to be able to tell instructors what to teach on open-carry," he says. While open-carry advocates are sure of their legal status, "some people are obviously confused."

    At a glance
    * THE ISSUE: State statutes don't cover the ins and outs of openly carrying a gun. Basically, it's legal because it's not illegal.
    * WHAT'S NEXT: A request to the attorney general for a legal opinion on open-carry is pending but has yet to make it past the Department of Public Safety.

    So you want to pack heat?
    Though somewhat unclear or untested, here are the rules for openly carrying a gun in Utah:
    * Don't be a felon.
    * Keep the firearm in plain view, unless you have a concealed weapon permit.
    * The firearm must be "statutorily unloaded." That means the gun has no cartridge in the chamber or firing position and would take two manual actions to fire. For instance, a semi-auto pistol with a full magazine would have an empty chamber. Then, it must take two actions to fire: 1. Pulling and releasing the slide to chamber a round. 2. Pulling the trigger. (If you hold a concealed carry permit, the open-carry firearm can be loaded and ready to fire.)
    * Not even the Second Amendment will let you open-carry in some places, including courthouses, post offices, schools (unless you have a concealed weapon permit) and secure parts of airports.
    * Applies to all legal firearms, including rifles and shotguns.
    * If the manager of a business or the property owner asks you to leave, you must or face trespassing charges.
    * A homeowner or church can ban your gun from their premises.



    With a Springfield XD-45 pistol on his belt, Brian Nelson... (Trent Nelson/The Salt Lake Tribune)

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    WOW! I thought the SL tribune would spin it anti for sure! They did a great job, but as usual, some minor things that I would like to see written differently. Looks like you are our spokes mouth Brian! :P
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    That's fantastic.
    -Unrequited

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    Looks like you are our spokes mouth Brian! :P
    ...............I am a little confused about that part myself, but I guess as long as it gets the word out, then I really don't care whos mouth they use:celebrate. I am very impressed with the nature of the article, Glen did a great job staying informative and not getting getting too far off one side or the other. Thanks again to everyone that came out to Layton for the lunch. B

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    Great work Utah OCers!

    The only thing that might have been nice to add in the article is the "tastes great,less filling" analogy for tactical advantages & disadvantages to OC.

    But the idea of 2 competing forces did get in there.

    Now, maybe a meetup by some other folks in the Salt Lake City Airport to highlight their bogus preemption violatin' signs on doors saying no guns in non-sterile area of the airport

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    Campaign Veteran Dutch Uncle's Avatar
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    This is very heartening info. You guys in Utah are doing a really good job of getting the word out without intimidating the public. That a major newspaper could write an article without the usual anti-gun insults and condescension shows how far all this has come. The description of the monthly lunch gathering sugggests what many of us already know: the same public that would be frightened or offended by individuals OC'ing is more likely to be intrigued rather than threatened by a group of regular folks just having lunch together. We've found that such gatherings also help bring other people out who were too apprehensive to start OC'ing by themselves.

    I was pleased to read the reference to OCDO as well. :celebrate

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Since the editor only put Brian's "mug shot" in the paper, here is a group photo taken with my camera. There were a few people that left before this photo was taken, so this is not everybody.



    Mike wrote:
    Great work Utah OCers!

    Now, maybe a meetup by some other folks in the Salt Lake City Airport to highlight their bogus preemption violatin' signs on doors saying no guns in non-sterile area of the airport
    Is anybody planning to fly into the SLC airport soon??? I think a "group welcome" is in order.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    The very idea of being forced to carry tactically UNLOADED scares the crap out of me! Thanks, fellas, but I'll stay the hell out of Utah!!

    I don't need any stinking "permit" to OC here, and I don't have to give the criminals the tactical advantage of being essentially unloaded. That's insane. It's fine if your carry is just for show, but God help you if you ever really need it. Those seconds lost could mean your life or that of someone you love.

    As for a bad guy picking the one open carrying to shoot first, that's up to you! Do you sit in a room with your back to the door? Do you ignore the people around you or are you aware of your surroundings, maintain a decent "space" and watch what others are doing near you?

    I'm glad you folks are gathering and making a statement... just hope you can manage not to let it slide into the stupidity of so many other states that have disarmed so many.

    Loaded and locked!! ML
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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    Shucks, we should have taken a group picture at breakfast this morning... the VA boys & girls had a blast. Great job!
    -Unrequited

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    MamaLiberty wrote:
    The very idea of being forced to carry tactically UNLOADED scares the crap out of me! Thanks, fellas, but I'll stay the hell out of Utah!!

    I don't need any stinking "permit" to OC here, and I don't have to give the criminals the tactical advantage of being essentially unloaded. That's insane. It's fine if your carry is just for show, but God help you if you ever really need it. Those seconds lost could mean your life or that of someone you love.

    As for a bad guy picking the one open carrying to shoot first, that's up to you! Do you sit in a room with your back to the door? Do you ignore the people around you or are you aware of your surroundings, maintain a decent "space" and watch what others are doing near you?

    I'm glad you folks are gathering and making a statement... just hope you can manage not to let it slide into the stupidity of so many other states that have disarmed so many.

    Loaded and locked!! ML
    Mamaliberty, you don't need a permit to open carry. If you open carry loaded you have to have a permit.
    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
    Thomas Jefferson

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    MamaLiberty wrote:
    The very idea of being forced to carry tactically UNLOADED scares the crap out of me! Thanks, fellas, but I'll stay the hell out of Utah!!

    I don't need any stinking "permit" to OC here, and I don't have to give the criminals the tactical advantage of being essentially unloaded. That's insane. It's fine if your carry is just for show, but God help you if you ever really need it. Those seconds lost could mean your life or that of someone you love.
    From what many told me, most of the people who were OC'ing have concealed permits, and therefore can carry loaded. But I agree it would be better if no permit was needed at all.

    Edit - I guess I should read before posting. Haha

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    I especially enjoyed the comment calling Brian puny lol. Pretty funny stuff. A good micture of comments both pro & anti. It is interesting that a lot of the anti comments are quite childish w/name calling & insults. Kinda shows their truw colors there.

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    That's fantastic that the SLT had a non-anti story. As a humble suggestion, many of you dropping a quick note to the author might be some "positive reinforcement" that could influence how future areticles are written, both by him and at the SLT in genera.
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good" - George Washington
    "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." - Mahatma Gandhi

    As always, insert standard IANAL disclaimer here.

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    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    packingmama wrot
    Mamaliberty, you don't need a permit to open carry. If you open carry loaded you have to have a permit. Do you not need a permit in Wyoming to have a loaded open carry gun?
    In Wyoming we do not need any kind of permit to carry openly, fully loaded, walking or in our vehicles. We also have total preemption so no locality, city or county can pass any laws to change that. All FEDERAL laws apply, but there are no state laws regarding open carry - period.

    I carry everywhere, every day, at home or away. I am a Second Amendment Sister and NRA Certified handgun and self defense instructor.

    I'm also a 61 year old retired RN... There is no reason for any person who can walk and talk at the same time not to be prepared to defend themselves.

    There is no good reason EVER to be a helpless victim!! If you can't say that where you live, then it's time to move to Wyoming or another Gold state.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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    MamaLiberty wrote:
    packingmama wrot
    Mamaliberty, you don't need a permit to open carry. If you open carry loaded you have to have a permit. Do you not need a permit in Wyoming to have a loaded open carry gun?
    I carry everywhere, every day, at home or away. I am a Second Amendment Sister and NRA Certified handgun and self defense instructor.

    I'm also a 61 year old retired RN... There is no reason for any person who can walk and talk at the same time not to be prepared to defend themselves.

    There is no good reason EVER to be a helpless victim!! If you can't say that where you live, then it's time to move to Wyoming or another Gold state.
    After I posted I looked on the main page to see what color state you were, I guess I should of looked first. I am the same I never go anywhere without my gun its always with me, usually on my hip in plain site. Even if they did take away our rights I would still have it with me regardless. I am always prepared ask anyone that knows me I am a preparedness Guru. I can tell you one thing... If someone tried to mess with me or my kids they would'nt be very smart! We need alot more strong women out there like us. Do you teach RAD Women self defense? That is a great course.



    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
    Thomas Jefferson

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    State Researcher .40 Cal's Avatar
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    Tacomatose wrote:
    (snip) "It's legal because it's not illegal
    Wow. I'm a man, because I'm not a woman. I'm a law abiding citizen, because I'm not a serial killer...

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    .40 Cal wrote:
    Tacomatose wrote:
    (snip) "It's legal because it's not illegal
    Wow. I'm a man, because I'm not a woman. I'm a law abiding citizen, because I'm not a serial killer...
    I'm not sure where you are going with this but Clark A. was dead on with his statement. All too often people expect you to show them a law that allows Open Carry. There isn't one! Its legal because there is no law made to prevent it... Laws aren't passed to give you permission, they are passed to take it away.

    This is true even with CC laws. The CC laws don't grant the permission to carry concealed, they merely exempt permit holders from previous laws which stripped citizens of that right.

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    State Researcher .40 Cal's Avatar
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    I guess that most of society needs to be told what they can and can't do. My point is that I am disgusted that we need to hear circular reasoning to understand the things we are allowed to do when our constitution states our rights as the framers intended. We made it this far on what they set as our national guideline. It is only in recent decades that we the people have decided to try to reinvent the wheel. Look where that has gotten us. Yes, something is legal because it is not illegal. Does that really need to be pointed out?

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    For people who have been conditioned to look to the government for everything, and for a country that has demonized handguns and weapons in generalI think it does. People take a lot for granted that is simply not true.

    Its a simple answer to what everybody should know.

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    State Researcher .40 Cal's Avatar
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    That is why it irks me.

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Once again, the NRA-ILA has a link to the article.

    http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/InTheNews.aspx?ID=10277
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Great publicity...way to go Utah! Now, if you will just start carrying in banks....

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    dngreer wrote:
    Great publicity...way to go Utah! Now, if you will just start carrying in banks....
    Been there, done that! I always carry into the bank. I think the drive through is lazy! :P
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    dngreer wrote:
    Great publicity...way to go Utah! Now, if you will just start carrying in banks....
    I have done it too!
    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
    Thomas Jefferson

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    Way to go! This is a great article and thread.

    Clark -Carryconcealed.net

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