Pit bull encounter...

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Was walking to work this morning (so no gun ) and a guy had an off leash pitbull and another off leash dog where I was walking. The pit came running up to me while I was on the phone with my boss. I told the guy to call the dog off, that there are leash laws. He called the dog back and leashed it and started getting beligerant with me, telling me to mind my own f-ing business, and his buddy was piping up about "What's the ordinance, huh? What is it?" Then his other dog ran up to me (both were probably friendly but the owner was not) I told them I was going to call the cops, and they kept being beligerant. I was walking off the whole time and leaving the area. I did report the guy to the cops. I don't think people should run pit bulls (or any other dog ) off leash and get nasty when a person calls them on it. I didn't cuss the guy out and I maintained a pretty firm tone with the guy.

What I started thinking was, how would this have gone down if I was OCing? The dog owner would have seen my weapon for sure, and may have not been so beligerant, or given his frame of mind may have tried to have the dog attack me. I can't be sure. I still would have reported him to the cops, more so since he might have made a false report about threatening with a gun.

Potentially dangerous dogs offleash (I'm not picking on pit bulls here, I have known some very friendly pits) and jerkoff owners, plus guy OCing minding his own business can be an interesting conversation.

What I would have done if I was OCing would been to have still told the guy to put it on a leash while walking away. I still wouldn't have responded to the taunting both people were doing, and would have kept walking away and still would have reported it to the cops.

I don't think at anytime I would have done anything wrong, and in fact would have been doing everything I could do to avoid an unwanted encounter.

I like to run this sort of thing through my mind to judge response and reaction and possible endings, because the presence of a gun on my hip may have simplified things or it may have made things more difficult depending on the dog owner's attitude and response to that...

Thoughts?

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Just don't shoot the dog if you're in Texas http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum4/6024.html

:shock:

Then again, you wouldn't be OCing there anyway...


ETA: I don't know exactly how you worded your response to the gentleman in question, but personally I would have kindly asked first for him to call the dog off, then make some quick conversation about the dog (i.e. "oh, how old are they? hah, they sure seem overeager today, etc) before casually mentioning the bad things that could happen to dogs that aren't on leashes, such as getting hit by a car, taking off after an animal and getting lost, etc. Then again, I'm a postal carrier and have to deal with peoples' unrestrained dogs everyday...

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Next time drive to work -- Run it over.

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thereis adog repellent avaliable on ebay, cost between 10-15 bucks and once u press the button (invisible wave emmits) and dog goes the other way.

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What did the dog do? He just came up to investigate you. Everyone labels pit bulls with such a bad stereotype, but wasn't there some statistic that only 2 people a year are killed by pit bulls? Compaired to how many people by pit bull owners?

I guess it's not as big of a deal to me because I'm a dog person, and I take my dog to the off-leash dog park, so I'm around dogs a lot. Give them a chance, for the most part, they aren't bad. I know that a fear of dogs runs rampant on these boards, but breed discrimination is no reason to be violent to a dog. And your temperment is very visible to the dog. You being affraid and defensive may be the only reason that a dog feels the need to defend his owner from you. Just think about it that way for a second. Try to see it fromthe dog'sperspective.

Now don't get me wrong, I've almost had to shoot a ferrel dog before. I'm not saying that it never happens. I'm just saying that when it comes to domesticated dogs, they will almost always be peaceful to you, unless you are showing signs of fear and anxiety. And dogs generally know when you are packing, OC or not. Just remember that the way you reacted, as far as the dog was concerned, was equivelant to growling angrily and maybe even barking at his owner. Your reaction alone could be the only reason that a dog would become defensive toward you. Just think about it that way fora moment next time, you may have a totally different encounter.

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In my years of CCW in South Carolina, the only time I drew was on four strange dogs. My wife and I had just stepped out the door of our townhouse when the dogs came at us and felt wrong. Clearly, my command voice was effective.

Forcing moral equivalency between man and beast is pathetic.

Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. LAB/NRA/GOP KMA$$

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I never said that we were morally equivalent to dogs. I said that jumping to a conclusion to "defend yourself" against a dog based on an irrational fear, rather than any actual action on the dogs behalf, is not a rational response. It's presence alone is not a threat. It needs to take some sort of action other than simply existing as a certain breed before reacting defensively is necessary.

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I was speaking generally and not addressing anyone in particular. There is a general tone to 'man shoots dog' stories. This is another.

Dogs and beasts are property and have no per se moral value.

Shooting a beast is equivalent to shooting an improper target. Do we bemoan the damage to a target-tree unless it is in the commons?

The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.

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My dog means a lot more to me than any other so called property, and I would have no remorse in defending her life with deadly force.

We're supposed to be a higher lifeform. Part of that is because we have compasion for other lifeforms, and don't mearly see them as property, like a tree.

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I was told a story by a friend of mine that I work with who OC's. He told me that he has only drawn his weapon once (well, technically twice). He was walking his dog when another dog came running down the street barking at him and his dog. If I remember the story correctly, the dog appeared to be in "attack" mode. My friend tried to "shoo" the dog away but the dog kept lunging at him and his dog. Apparently the dog had come from a house further down the street where a woman stood in the yard watching. My friend couldn't retreat because he was trying to hold onto his dog, protect himself and the dog simultaneously trying to get the attacking dog to retreat. The woman did nothing to call off the dog. So, my friend drew his weapon and pointed it at the dog. The dog must have known something serious was up because then he retreated back to the house. My friend holstered his weapon and continued down the street. When he got closer to the house, walking on the other side of the street, a visibly drunk man came out of the housewhere the dog was from and started yelling at my friend about pulling a gun on his dog. The drunk man said something to the effect of, "You wanna pull a gun on my dog! You wanna try that on me." Then the drunk man pulled a pocket knife out of his pocket, open it and started walking toward my friend. My friend was not on his property. I believe that the encounter happened on the street. My friend pulled his weapon out and pointed at the man and said something to the effect, "That was not a smart thing to do. Why don't you just walk back into your house." Then the woman started encouraging her male companion to end the engagement. The man went back to his house still cussing as my friend holstered his weapon and continued down the street. I think that my friend was not comfortable with the whole incident.

Was he right or wrong? I don't know. Luckily it ended peaceably.

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I do not like dogs. Nor do I like dogs that come running up to me off leash when they should be leashed while I am trying to get to work. Period. I don't know if this "friendly" dog will all of a sudden get nasty. That is why there are leash laws. I told the man in an even but firm tone to call off his dog. Owner got nasty. I kept going. I merely pondered how the owner would have reacted had I been OCing, which could have changed things, possibly for the worse. Given his attitude he may have gotten threatening and tried to have his dog attack. I don't know. I do know you keep your @#$#@$ dog on a leash when the law says so and not let it run around loose when there are people around, and you shouldn't act like a jerk when someone calls you on it.

I hope things would have been the same had I been OCing but there is the human factor here, and the guy with the dog did not seem wound too tight.

I don't have to put up with a dog "checking me out" nor do I have to put up with every idiot who thinks his dog should run around off leash because it is such a wonderful dog, and then get rude when I don't like the possibly threatening situation his dog has put me into.

At any rate I hope given the fact I was walking away and maintained an even tone, even had I been OCing that the situation would have ended the same.

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Mt freind said that he was prepared to shoot the dog if necessary (which is why he pulled his weapon). But after the incident he wondered if he had shot either the dog or the drunk idiot, the only witness was the idiot's female companion. And he was scared it could turn into a "he said/she said" scenario. OC'ing is such a great responsibility, but I think my friend was justified in pulling his weapon (don't know if he should have pointed it at the guy though).

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sv_libertarian wrote:

I do not like dogs. Nor do I like dogs that come running up to me off leash when they should be leashed while I am trying to get to work. Period. I don't know if this "friendly" dog will all of a sudden get nasty. That is why there are leash laws. I told the man in an even but firm tone to call off his dog. Owner got nasty. I kept going. I merely pondered how the owner would have reacted had I been OCing, which could have changed things, possibly for the worse. Given his attitude he may have gotten threatening and tried to have his dog attack. I don't know. I do know you keep your @#$#@$ dog on a leash when the law says so and not let it run around loose when there are people around, and you shouldn't act like a jerk when someone calls you on it.

I hope things would have been the same had I been OCing but there is the human factor here, and the guy with the dog did not seem wound too tight.

I don't have to put up with a dog "checking me out" nor do I have to put up with every idiot who thinks his dog should run around off leash because it is such a wonderful dog, and then get rude when I don't like the possibly threatening situation his dog has put me into.

At any rate I hope given the fact I was walking away and maintained an even tone, even had I been OCing that the situation would have ended the same.

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You are a much greater threat to the dog than he is to you, even unarmed. In fact, the dogs owner is statistically more of a threat to you than the dog is. Now you are absolutely right that the owner should be keeping his dog on a leash, and you are again absolutely right that you don't have to like or trust dogs to be a good person. I'm not saying that you did anything wrong. What I am saying is that a lot of people on this forum hold an irrational fear of dogs (generally breed specific fears) that is not healthy for them, and dangerous for the dog. I am asking that before we board members start shooting or pepper-spraying dogs, can we take a moment and think about the situation? Can we step back for a second and figure out the reality of the situation? Is the dog attacking you, or is it just saying hello and smelling your cat on you? To some of us the answer is clear, but to others an irrational fear takes over, and the mear presense of the dog is a "life threatening situation". The dog gets hurt and leaves a family mourning it's loss. Please understand that to a lot of dog owners, the pet isn't property, but a member of their family.

You handled the situation correctly, and the dog owner should not have been confrontational with you.

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Large dog off a leash acting aggressive towards you = threat of greater bodily harm.A dog can outrun you so retreat is not possible. So self defense is justified. It happens all the time with people shooting the dog and no charges being filed against them. That is as long as the dog is large enough that you cannot simply kick it away like a football. If a wiener dog attacks you, anything more than a swift punt could be considered excessive force.

But if you do shoot a dog, be prepared to immediately defend yourself against the owner.

MANY dog owners treat them like children.And just likemanyirrational parents, they believe that there child/dog could never do anything wrong. It's never their child's/dog's fault.

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drkarrow wrote:

Large dog off a leash acting aggressive towards you = threat of greater bodily harm.A dog can outrun you so retreat is not possible. So self defense is justified. It happens all the time with people shooting the dog and no charges being filed against them. That is as long as the dog is large enough that you cannot simply kick it away like a football. If a wiener dog attacks you, anything more than a swift punt could be considered excessive force.

But if you do shoot a dog, be prepared to immediately defend yourself against the owner.

MANY dog owners treat them like children.And just likemanyirrational parents, they believe that there child/dog could never do anything wrong. It's never their child's/dog's fault.

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Exactly, and that since they are sooooo cute everyone else will love their pet too.

Not only is it prudent to keep your dog on a leash, but, what if someone is allergic and their dog comes running up to you, I would not appreciate that at all, some people have very touchy allergies. I have a cat, but I would never try to push an animal agenda on someone, or say that my pets rights come before someone elses, thats ridiculous.

If the owner was around, I would tell him he has about 3 seconds to get his dog before I shot him. At least he couldn't say you didn't give him a warning, assuming his dog was being unreasonably aggressive and you could not retreat...

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drkarrow wrote:

Large dog off a leash acting aggressive towards you = threat of greater bodily harm.A dog can outrun you so retreat is not possible. So self defense is justified. It happens all the time with people shooting the dog and no charges being filed against them. That is as long as the dog is large enough that you cannot simply kick it away like a football. If a wiener dog attacks you, anything more than a swift punt could be considered excessive force.

But if you do shoot a dog, be prepared to immediately defend yourself against the owner.

MANY dog owners treat them like children.And just likemanyirrational parents, they believe that there child/dog could never do anything wrong. It's never their child's/dog's fault.

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You are absolutely correct about that last statement. If I see you using excessive force to hurt my dog, I will confront you with equally severe force. I'm also not going to let my dog run up to youoff ofa leash, so this will probably never be a problem.

The point I was making earlier is that while you are justified in using force to stop an agressive dog, and it is in your best interest to do so, a lot of people have an irrational phobia of dogs (or of a specific breed of dog) that makes them think that the mear presense of the dog is life threatening.

Now as a dog owner, I know that my dog would never hurt you, and I know that when she approaches youit is to say hello and hopefully get a treat. I also know that you don't know that. You don't knowmy dog, and your personal experiences with dogs could be very different from mine, making you feel that my dog bouncing around and acting playful is actually prepairing to attack you. This is why I don't let her run up to people unless they are acting like they want to pet her. Unfortunately, a lot of pet owners aren't as responsible as I am, and don't understand that other people might not have the same understanding of their dog.



As a disclaimer, I should also mention that my dog isn't a pit bull. She's an Australian shepherd, german shepherd, and blue heeler mix and she's 8 months old, so everyone I've met just thinks she's either cute or annoying, but never threatening.



As an interesting side note, I once met a guy who had a dog that disarmed people. As soon as he saw a pistol, he would jump up and grab it out of your hand. It was a pretty cool trick.

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"I rehabilitate dogs. I train people."--Cesar Millan

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expvideo wrote:

drkarrow wrote:

Large dog off a leash acting aggressive towards you = threat of greater bodily harm.A dog can outrun you so retreat is not possible. So self defense is justified. It happens all the time with people shooting the dog and no charges being filed against them. That is as long as the dog is large enough that you cannot simply kick it away like a football. If a wiener dog attacks you, anything more than a swift punt could be considered excessive force.

But if you do shoot a dog, be prepared to immediately defend yourself against the owner.

MANY dog owners treat them like children.And just likemanyirrational parents, they believe that there child/dog could never do anything wrong. It's never their child's/dog's fault.

Click to expand...

You are absolutely correct about that last statement. If I see you using excessive force to hurt my dog, I will confront you with equally severe force. I'm also not going to let my dog run up to youoff ofa leash, so this will probably never be a problem.

The point I was making earlier is that while you are justified in using force to stop an agressive dog, and it is in your best interest to do so, a lot of people have an irrational phobia of dogs (or of a specific breed of dog) that makes them think that the mear presense of the dog is life threatening.

Now as a dog owner, I know that my dog would never hurt you, and I know that when she approaches youit is to say hello and hopefully get a treat. I also know that you don't know that. You don't knowmy dog, and your personal experiences with dogs could be very different from mine, making you feel that my dog bouncing around and acting playful is actually prepairing to attack you. This is why I don't let her run up to people unless they are acting like they want to pet her. Unfortunately, a lot of pet owners aren't as responsible as I am, and don't understand that other people might not have the same understanding of their dog.



As a disclaimer, I should also mention that my dog isn't a pit bull. She's an Australian shepherd, german shepherd, and blue heeler mix and she's 8 months old, so everyone I've met just thinks she's either cute or annoying, but never threatening.

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I am an animal lover (I have two cats). And I have always loved "Aussies". I think they are the best breed (just my opinion). But there are unfortunately situations that warrant lethal force. It may be hard to tell, but my friend's encounter was while he was walking his dog (he loves animals too) and he led me to believe that this was NOT a friendly encounter. Luckily no one was harmed.

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expvideo wrote:

drkarrow wrote:

Large dog off a leash acting aggressive towards you = threat of greater bodily harm.A dog can outrun you so retreat is not possible. So self defense is justified. It happens all the time with people shooting the dog and no charges being filed against them. That is as long as the dog is large enough that you cannot simply kick it away like a football. If a wiener dog attacks you, anything more than a swift punt could be considered excessive force.

But if you do shoot a dog, be prepared to immediately defend yourself against the owner.

MANY dog owners treat them like children.And just likemanyirrational parents, they believe that there child/dog could never do anything wrong. It's never their child's/dog's fault.

Click to expand...

You are absolutely correct about that last statement. If I see you using excessive force to hurt my dog, I will confront you with equally severe force. I'm also not going to let my dog run up to youoff ofa leash, so this will probably never be a problem.

The point I was making earlier is that while you are justified in using force to stop an agressive dog, and it is in your best interest to do so, a lot of people have an irrational phobia of dogs (or of a specific breed of dog) that makes them think that the mear presense of the dog is life threatening.

Now as a dog owner, I know that my dog would never hurt you, and I know that when she approaches youit is to say hello and hopefully get a treat. I also know that you don't know that. You don't knowmy dog, and your personal experiences with dogs could be very different from mine, making you feel that my dog bouncing around and acting playful is actually prepairing to attack you. This is why I don't let her run up to people unless they are acting like they want to pet her. Unfortunately, a lot of pet owners aren't as responsible as I am, and don't understand that other people might not have the same understanding of their dog.



As a disclaimer, I should also mention that my dog isn't a pit bull. She's an Australian shepherd, german shepherd, and blue heeler mix and she's 8 months old, so everyone I've met just thinks she's either cute or annoying, but never threatening.



As an interesting side note, I once met a guy who had a dog that disarmed people. As soon as he saw a pistol, he would jump up and grab it out of your hand. It was a pretty cool trick.

Click to expand...

What if someone did find her threatening, and for some reason she got away from you...maybe you had your back turned or the clip on the leash snapped, whatever. If someone put down your dog because they feel threatened, you are going to go attack them?

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My opinion is this.

There exist leash laws everywhere to prevent these sort of confrontations. There is absolutely no way to know that whena dog is running toward you whether he is charging for an attack or acting on its own natural curiosity. If you allow a large dog to get too close to you without deterring it in some way, you are opening yourself up to a possible attack. I have always been trained that lethal force is authorized in the event of the possibility of death or serious bodily injury. Like people who believe a fistfight cannot result in serious injury, people who think dogs cannot do real damage in a very short amount of time are simply being naive. In all honesty, I probably would'vedrawn mysidearm immediately as I demanded that the dogs be called off. If the owner didn't comply, I would neutralize the threat.

This is not an irrational fear, nor is it a cold and heartless sentiment. I have been a dog owner and lover my entire life. In fact, it is because I care about my dogs that I follow the laws that are designed to protect them and me from possible liability due to their misdeeds. I have also used my sidearm to neutralize dogs that I believed were a threat to me and my property. I have killed in the last 4 years 3 dogs that entered my property and attempted to kill one of my pets. People complain about breed specific prejudice, but the fact that 2 of the dogs I have killed were pit bulls proves that there are dogs out there that are naturally inclined to have violent dispositions.

Again, these sentiments come from a life-long dog lover.