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Thread: Now we have their attention...

  1. #1
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Academy and Rookie Questions Answered Here: "People asking for trouble"

    http://www.pacovilla.com/v-web/bulle...ic.php?t=16302

    In a brief read through, they have drawn some interesting conculsions. Such as the definition of 'loaded' being both ammunition and firearm in the possession of the same person. (PC12001 (j)- which only applies to PC12023, carrying a loaded firearm with intent to commit a felony.)

    And of course, there are a number of comments that say OC'rs just want to look like a cop, that such people are losers, goint to 'eat cement', etc. Only thing is, we are two for two in being free to go in contact with law enforcement. And in either case, no one 'ate cement'.

    Hopefully, some there will keep an open mind long enough to learn the truth about open carry, and why some would choose to do so in an environment where licenses to carry concealed (or otherwise) are difficult or impossible to come by.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    I was surprised to see these people take this type of attitude towards open carry. Their arguments are very weak.


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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    Keep in mind they are "correctional" peace officers and that they and their ignorance of state law andrightsis thankfully as lockedup behind walls and fences as their charges.

    Their union paid former Dem. Gov. Davis' re-election campaign $1 million and as a result were given a 40% raise in pay by the legislators (dems). I think starting salary is now around $65 - 70,000.

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    cato wrote:
    Keep in mind they are "correctional" peace officers and that they and their ignorance of state law andrightsis thankfully as lockedup behind walls and fences as their charges.

    Their union paid former Dem. Gov. Davis' re-election campaign $1 million and as a result were given a 40% raise in pay by the legislators (dems). I think starting salary is now around $65 - 70,000.
    What union?


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    http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/Career_Opport...ndbenefits.pdf

    It's probably just an association. Pay range is between $3774.00 -$7772.00 monthly. Do you hear the call of "come West young man"? Come on out, join the prison industrial complexand help bankrupt the state! Great benefits too!

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    cato wrote:
    http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/Career_Opport...ndbenefits.pdf

    It's probably just an association. Pay range is between $3774.00 -$7772.00 monthly. Do you hear the call of "come West young man"? Come on out, join the prison industrial complexand help bankrupt the state! Great benefits too!
    God no, the pay is decent but not even close to what I would want for dealing with those people.

    Plus to make the maximum salary, it takes a considerable amount of time, even at 5% every 6 months...

    And... it is CALIFORNIA... No thanks!

    I'll go west, but not that far west

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    I just caught wind of this post and I'm glad to see we have all caused such a ruckus for many of our government sponsored babysitters.

    But flipping through their forum also raised a question in my mind.

    Is it legal to wear your firearm unloaded with a magazine on you as well while you drive/ride in a car? I know I've read laws that while you are driving they have to be stored in a separate locked container (aka the trunk) so I've been sticking my gun in the trunk when I drive around out of paranoia.

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    Hellrazor227 wrote:
    I just caught wind of this post and I'm glad to see we have all caused such a ruckus for many of our government sponsored babysitters.

    But flipping through their forum also raised a question in my mind.

    Is it legal to wear your firearm unloaded with a magazine on you as well while you drive/ride in a car? I know I've read laws that while you are driving they have to be stored in a separate locked container (aka the trunk) so I've been sticking my gun in the trunk when I drive around out of paranoia.
    I think their interpretation of the case law is bunk. The definition of 'loaded' under 12031 doesn't change. Also remember, most the case law we have out there on gun rights comes from social deviants' cases. The courts would probably not rule so harshly on someone who hasn't even had a speeding ticket in his lifetime.

    I do find it funny how worked up they're all getting about it. I've met many corrections officers. I'd say 90% of them wouldn't survive as a street cop. They don't have the temperment for it. Generally, the ones working the jails get kicks off the power of controlling the inmates. They wouldn't get along well with free people.

    In any case, I feel honored to garner so much attention with my little 'social experiment.' That is all I consider it here in CA... in all honesty I am more likely to reach for my knife than my gun - it doesn't need to be loaded and only requires 1 hand to operate.
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    I think I'm gonna start carrying a rifle slung accross my back and my katana on my left hip (in addition to the pistol). Then they'll really have something to talk about.


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    Hellrazor227 wrote:
    Is it legal to wear your firearm unloaded with a magazine on you as well while you drive/ride in a car?
    Thatis no crime as long as it is not concealed (openly worn in a belt holster is not considered concealed per 12025) and not loaded per 12031 and not in a school zone. If it is "concealed" then it must be unloaded in the trunk or in a locked casewhich is not the glove box or utility compartment.

    As far as correctional officers ignorance of the PC, it is understandable, as they don't generally engage in enforcement activities. What is laughable when you read their thread is the discussion of them trying to figure out their peace officer status in regard to their own CA and National carry privileges.

    But don't entirely worry. There are good guys in that department, probably reading that thread and this one who know the laws and are sympathetic to the cause, but choose not to engage the ignorant in head banging debate.


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    What I found truly baffling was how all of those 'officers' were tough talking about the OC eating concrete and disparaging civilians OPEN carrying, yet fail to even consider the near impossibility of a concealed permit, all the while calling the OC all sorts of names, and they have zero clue that THEY are the tool. :P

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    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    Is it legal to wear your firearm unloaded with a magazine on you as well while you drive/ride in a car?
    Yes it is.


    I know I've read laws that while you are driving they have to be stored in a separate locked container (aka the trunk) so I've been sticking my gun in the trunk when I drive around out of paranoia.
    Common misconception / overparanoia. That only applies to a concealed firearm. If it's worn openly on your hip it's not concealed.

    Read http://www.paul.net/guns/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf






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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    N2MotoX Wrote on Paco Villa;
    Now, put your brain together with your OC buddies (not many) and convince the Sheriff or the Chief in your county that his officers have no probable cause to stop you for carrying a gun in public. When you get the answers from him, please post them. Until then.....HERE'S YOUR SIGN!
    Persistant little cuss, arent they?

    The only probable cause that a peace officer has to stop a person who is visably carrying a holstered sidearm (or for that matter a long arm) is written into PC12031 (e) as follows...
    (e) In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory. Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of this section.

    This despite its codification in law, is not constitutional as it violates 4th amendment search and seizure protections. Without this clause, peace officers in Californiawould have to rely solely on the observed conduct or statements of the open carrier to determine the intent or criminality of their actions.

    One does not need to convince a Sheriff or other law enforcement that they do not have probable cause to stop a visably armed citizen. They have been given superconstitutional abilities to conduct a search. Now, if PC12031 (e) did not exist on the books, any contact with police would be voluntary. Without the elements of a crime or any evidence to support criminal conduct, police could not hold an open carrier without some reasonable articulable suspicion that a crime was commited or about to be commited.

    This is exactly how it played out with my contact with local police. Police were called and responded. I participated in voluntary contact whereboth a12031 weapons check and a field interview were conducted. Because the police had no elements of a crime, and could not articulate suspicion of a crime or a crime about to be commited, they did not have sufficient cause to hold me, let alone arrest me.

    So- when PC12031 (e) is challenged and struck down, there will be no probable cause forpolice to stop an open carrier. Police will actually have to wait for the elements of a crimeto bear fruit or be able toarticulate their suspicion of a crime about to be commited.

    There's your sign, motorhead.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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    After reading the first half page over there, I decided an intelligent conversation would not occur. I'll leave the idiots to themselves; let them stay stupid. The victory when our 2A rights are restored will be that much more sweet.

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    After reading the first half page over there, I decided an intelligent conversation would not occur. I'll leave the idiots to themselves; let them stay stupid. The victory when our 2A rights are restored will be that much more sweet.
    Yeah, youre not missing much. So far they have spent 11 pages shooting down open carry, suggesting if youre so concerned about your safety as to need a gun, perhaps you should 'move'. And one of my favorites (that just happens to fit into the anti-gunners ideology) is bullets should be really expensive for everyone... but 'free' for law enforcement.

    I dont care where you 'move'- it will not relieve you of the need to defend yourself against others who would seek to harm you. And this idea to make ammunition difficult to obtain with the exception of law enforcement only shows the emergence of tyranny in the perception that only police can defend us. Their reasoning is utterly moronic.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    After reading the first half page over there, I decided an intelligent conversation would not occur. I'll leave the idiots to themselves; let them stay stupid. The victory when our 2A rights are restored will be that much more sweet.
    Man, I read all 11 pages and couldn't believe what I was reading. I'm sure glad I don't live in the peoples republik. I like good ole VA just fine!

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    Now, y'all got me interested. I'll have to take a look at what they're saying.

    Update: Wish I hadn't looked.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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    I was once employed by the California Department of Corrections for 15+yrs. I even personally know a couple of the morons who posted on the pacovilla.com thread.

    it comes as no surprise the way some of them act. I would say 20% of the staff are good honest professionals that have common sense. the other 40% are dump trucks that only show up for a check and play desk cop or snack bar rover, and the other 40% are in my opinion Sadists, who only want to make others peoples lives miserable. most of them are McDonalds rejects IMHO.

    in the course of my duties there, I have witnessed a lot of wrong things happen, I've seen evidence planted or frabicated by staff, Falsified reports, inmates beaten, or provoked by staff to fight. aka *Creative counseling* cleaned up by *Creative Writing* and it's easy to fall into this mob mentally when all the staff around you are more crooked than the inmates, in order to keep the inmates in "Check"

    and if you are one of the rare or few staff that report serious staff misconduct to I.A. you are then ostracized by the staff and management. and evenutually terminated or feel forced to quit.(I've seen this happen a few times) and labeled an "Inmate Lover" rather than "Pro-Staff"

    Also, I feel they/we were overpaid, I know of some officers who earn in excess of 120k+ a year. the only timeI felt we earned this money was when we were FOT (forced over time) 4-5 days a week. working 16 hr days, and unable to spend time with family. in addition they get 3.0 at retirement, which basically comes out to 90% of your last years pay if you have 30 years in. so if your at your top pay scale with all the other little bonuses, you end up with a very healthy retirement package of 6-7k a month with full health and dental.

    getting a Job at CDC is like winning the "lotto" as many of us put it. but yet is also the easiest job I ever had. and often times I couldn't beleive I was making so much money, for so little work.

    in order for them to get fat raises each year, they would contribute big $$$ to the person/governor they know would win in exchange for love at the bargaining table. once they have a deal set in place, CCPOA would tell the CO's who to vote for. cause it meant more money for them. I think there is like 70k+ Correctional staff that fall under Bargaining unit 5. so that a nice chunk of votes for who ever promises them sweet heart deals at the Union Table.

    years ago I left CDC, and was more than happy to leave it. while the money and benefits were good. I was happy to leave such a crooked organization. I consider many of them nothing more than"Criminals with Badges"

    I also have many friends who are Kings county Sheriffs and Fresno PD i grew up with, and the stories those guys would tell me while throwing a few pints down would make you sick.

    Also when staff get fired it is usually a quiet affiar, I've seen these Criminals with Badges get busted for Armed robbery, Crack, Meth,PCP, Opium, engaging in sex with female inmates, Domestic Voilence, muling drugs into prisonetc etc, the list and stories are justendless...

    and the Biggest Joke told around the prison is, How many officers does it take to push an inmate down the stairs? none, because the inmate "Tripped" like i said, they are nothing more than Sadists. and wanna be control freaks.



    I am soo glad CDC is behind me, as I had a lot of moral issues working there. now because of that said, some of the CDC staff will probably call me an Inmate lover. when in fact I conducted myself as a true Professional, and earned the respect of Staff as well as inmates, point is, there are many rogue cops out there that should not be wearing badges. I am glad to be Living in Idaho, away from all the california cops.

    I only wish more citizens would excersize there right to Open carry, as well as police need to be properly educated.







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    ASP wrote:
    I was once employed by the California Department of Corrections for 15+yrs. I even personally know a couple of the morons who posted on the pacovilla.com thread.
    ...
    I am soo glad CDC is behind me, as I had a lot of moral issues working there. now because of that said, some of the CDC staff will probably call me an Inmate lover. when in fact I conducted myself as a true Professional, and earned the respect of Staff as well as inmates, point is, there are many rogue cops out there that should not be wearing badges. I am glad to be Living in Idaho, away from all the california cops.

    I only wish more citizens would excersize there right to Open carry, as well as police need to be properly educated.
    Welcome aboard, ASP. I appreciate the confirmation of what I had already suspected.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
    www.shop42a.com

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    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    Interesting post ASP, although it makes me mad/sad at the same time. Thanks for sharing that.



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    Just read that entire thread and it's stifling how those people are so dead set on denying people their rights and ignoring law. They truely believe that the 'spirit' of the law and their person views outweights the letter of the law that people live by.

    Makes me glad I live in the slightly less police state of Delaware, heh.

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    Oh noes! You mean the next timeyou open carryyou need to worry about a corrections officer stopping you? Simply ludacris! :what:

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    CO's do not have the authority nor are they trianed to do so. However they are Trained to "Tell on you" but knowing many of them as being lazy babysitters and not wanting to have to write a non-templated report. chances are in your favor they will just ignore you. or in the worse case scenario, call the local PD and report what they saw. trust me the last thing they want to do is extra "work" if they are not getting paid for it.

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    What's frightening me is how little they know about California law regarding CCW's. Yet, they think they know it all!

    Unless limited by the conditions a sheriff may print on a CCW, they are valid throughout California - not restricted to the issuing county. And that's just one error. Also, they clearly have never heard of People v. Clark.

    If you ask me, they either need some seriouscontinuing education, or perhapsa piece of duct tape around their mouths.

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    TBJ wrote:
    What's frightening me is how little they know about California law regarding CCW's. Yet, they think they know it all!

    Unless limited by the conditions a sheriff may print on a CCW, they are valid throughout California - not restricted to the issuing county. And that's just one error. Also, they clearly have never heard of People v. Clark.

    If you ask me, they either need some seriouscontinuing education, or perhapsa piece of duct tape around their mouths.
    As you have probably seen from the posts, I have tried, but this is another exapme of how it's almost impossible to educate those who are only confused by the facts.

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