I was wrong about OC (ETA) in Condition 3

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...to OC without one in the chamber. I know I have said on OCDO before that I preferred to carry without one in the chamber, but tonight I found out I was wrong in my thinking.

I always walk my dogs after work, and tonight was no exception. With the time change, it gets dark early, so even though walking after dark isn't the safest thing to do sometimes, I still do.

The walk was normal until the very end. I was getting ready to turn onto my road, and I was headed home when all of a sudden I heard a growl from my one dog, and I turned around to see a pit bull (or a pit bull/boxer/something bigmix)on a dead run across 4 lanes of traffic, teeth barred, headed straight for me and the dogs. I foolishly had one of the leashes wrapped around my shooting hand, and before I could transfer it to the other, thedog was on us. He was headed for my leg or my wife's little dog ( I couldn't tell). So I kicked him in the head, and that gave me enough time to free my shooting hand and grab my gun. I pulled on him, and pointed it at him and yelled at him. Lucky for me, he was gun shy, and backed off, which gave me a second to chamber a round. I stood there for about 10 seconds, pointing the gun at him, my dogs going wild barking and wrapping leashes around my feet as they were trying to get to the dog.Then I heard someonecall out, (it must have been for the dog),and the dog turned around. He ran back across the road, nearly getting hit. With it being dark, I couldn't really see which house the person was calling from, just the general direction. I should have gone across the street and found out, but I was honestly a bit shaken, and just wanted to get home. I don't scare easy, but a dog that big running at you out of nowhere has a way of putting a little bit of fear in you. My dogs have gotten out before and run over to a neighbor's house before, so I know sometimes dogs get loose, and owners can't really help it.This was a little different; I didn't know this dog, and pit bulls, or whatever pit bull mix this was,aren't really known for being friendly to strangers and other dogs.

So that's the long version of what changed my mind, thinking, and habits of how I carry. I will be carrying with one in the chamber at all times now. You other folks can do as you like, but I guess it took a first hand experience to change my thinking. It was a really helpless feeling knowing that I still had to chamber a round before my gun was anything more than a really expensive hammer. It turned out fine, thank God, but I'm not going to let myself feel that way again, if I can help it. But what do you folks think, was I wrong for pulling before the dog did anything? I felt like I was in danger, and it seemed like the correct thing to do. But there again, I've never had to pull on anyone or anything other than a target before. Let me hear what your thoughts are.

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Interesting story. I was laughing imagining this happening in my head.

I think you were fine in drawing on the dog. If there was a round in the chamber, I am assuming the dog would have been dead?

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Damn right you were right in pulling on the dog. You had a very tangible fear for your safety, and that owner has to take all the responsibility of letting the dog get loose on him/her. And I think everyone has to come to a point when they finally decide the risk of carrying without one in the chamber outweighs the risk of carrying with one at the ready. Apparently the dog wasn't willing to tango with you once he could tell you were willing to fight back, and that kick in the head must have put some sense into him, cause 10 seconds is perfectly enough time for the dog to get back in the fight. Glad it turned out alright without you having to pull the trigger and nobody got hurt. Couldn't ask for more than that, I think.

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openryan wrote:

Interesting story. I was laughing imagining this happening in my head.

I think you were fine in drawing on the dog. If there was a round in the chamber, I am assuming the dog would have been dead?

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It depends on what the dog would have done. If he ran away, he was fine.But if he came back for more and was trying to bite me, then that's one dog that wasn't going home. I did get one in the chamber, so I did have a decision to make if he would have came back at me.

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It also took a situation like your, not involving a dog, to get me to carry my pistol charged...

Another added benefit, is that you do not have to uholster your firearm to charge it, and risk a brandishing charge, if you decide not to draw...

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You absolutely were right in drawing on the dog, IMO.

Glad nobody got hurt.

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A pitbull/anything mix is a very deadly situation... I'd mace him first, and if that didn't work I'd pull my Glock19.

Pitbulls are not to play with... they can kill you quicker than you can blink. I love pitbulls, had one for a few year.. and saw that same 35lbs female pitbull pull 800lbs over 15 feet. I've seen males pull 3500lbs with ease.

Carry your gun!

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You did the right thing.

That's why I carry a revolver, don't need to think about a safety. I sometimes carry an 22 auto as back-up opposite side. Taurus PT22 one in chamber.

I once was attacked by a german sheppard before I began to carry. I defended with my strong arm, that meant that if I carried, being able to defend with my weak side would have been necessary.

I now pratice shooting short distanse weak side.

Owner called the dog off. Had winter coat on. No marks. Told owner next time dead dog. Started carring.

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HankT wrote:

This is a really good scenario to think about. Glad you're OK, dngreer

Doesn't sound like the gun was useful for anything in this case. Didn't do you a lick of good. The kick in the head was probably decisive. It must have been a really good one, since he didn't bite you. And the well-timed call by the owner of the unknown dog was crucial. That call is really what terminated the confrontation. Not pointing some metal object at the dog.

I disagree with your statement that: My dogs have gotten out before and run over to a neighbor's house before, so I know sometimes dogs get loose, and owners can't really help it.

Of course owners can help it. That's their responsibility. I can't stand irresponsible owners who let their dogs got loose to do mischief or mayhem. :cuss:

As far as your decision to permanently go from Condition 3 to one in the pipe solely due tothis particular incident doesn't seem justified. You must have gone through some analysis to get you to a C3 default before. Whatever that analysis was, how does that change significantly enough to change to one in the pipe now?

What kind of gun were you carrying? Probably one without a manual safety, I'd guess.

I'd say think about the change for a few days before you drastically change your carry protocol. You may be overreacting...

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I don't think it was the incident that made him decide to carry w/one in the pipe, Hank.

I think it was the fact that he realized, that in certain situations where you may need quick access to your firearm, that it is a real possibility that you might not have both hands free... in order to charge your firearm.

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So what? He's not 'justified' in changing his carrying style until he loses a chunk of arm? Watches one of his dogs get torn to shreads?

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dngreer, think about how much worse it could have been if you were carrying in a tacticool deep concealment holster and had to spend even more time trying to get it out. As for chambering a round with one hand, I'm sure some members on here will mention that you should have practiced chambering a round with your teeth or something like that, in the event you would need to shoot while violently handicapped. Or you could just carry with one in the chamber.

One of the reasons I strongly favor OC is draw time. I want to be able to access my firearm, draw, aim, and fire the first shot in a very short amount of time. It kind of would defeat the purpose for me if that draw involved having to chamber a round as well. Or fuss with some "safety". And color of law, add me to the revolver fan club.

I also wouldn't try using mace, unless it's on yourself to add seasoning.

Lesson of the day? "A man who carries with one in the chamber is a man who carried in condition three and had to use his gun"

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HankT wrote:

openryan wrote:

I don't think it was the incident that made him decide to carry w/one in the pipe, Hank.

I think it was the fact that he realized, that in certain situations where you may need quick access to your firearm, that it is a real possibility that you might not have both hands free... in order to charge your firearm.

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Didn't he think about this before?

Deciding whether to carry C3 or one in the pipe is a CRUCIAL decision. A very strong case can be made to justify either carry mode. Once you choose whichever one you think is best for you, you should only change it if you have a strong reason to do so.

I question whether OP's incident would be enough to do that.

I'm assuming, of course, a thorough and incisive analysis on dngreer''s initial decision to go C3.

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Didn't he think about this before, well if someone didn't even contemplate the decision at one point, then they probably aren't as a responsible gun owner as they think, and yes, I do think he thought about this, probably at some length.

Both modes of carry have their distinct advantages and disadvantages, points could be made for either side. I think both modes could be used, and I do not think you need a reason to change, I carry with one in the pipe, most of the time, but not all the time.

This incident might be the one that made him aware that it is easier to get caught up in a potential self-defense with an occupied hand than he may have thought. Being that he already had thought about it previously, this might have been all the encouragement he needed.

The decision to go C3 is almost always out of safety concern. Or because of state laws, usually people who are oc'ing without a permit, to stay legal.

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Bravo_Sierra wrote:

......I've seen males pull 3500lbs with ease.

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Thank God I weigh 3600 lbs. :lol:

But seriously, dngreer, you did exactly the right thing. You made a great punt and made the dog lose his thought process. What you decide to do about one in the pipe is totally a personal decision.

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I think you did the right thing here. I also am glad to hear that you have decided to carry in Condition 1/0 (depending on the safety status of your weapon). I have only been carrying for a little less than 2 years, and I have been confronted a few times about carrying with one in the pipe. Your story is a great confirmation of why I do. I'll admit, it took a little getting used to, knowing that there was a round chambered. But after spending every hour of everyday with my sidearm for such a long time, I know it and I trust it, more than most people . This is the comfort level I think that is necessary to carry in condition 1, and if you are truly ready to do so, you will definitely know.

Good luck, and I'm glad you came out OK.

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I never had a problem with carrying C1, because every gun is laoded, all the time, and ready to fire. That's rule #1. My mind didn't need to get used to it, because as long as you follow rule #1, your mind shouldn't get used to it.

If it were me, I would've drawn and fired as soon as he got within 15 feet of me, since I carry C1. There's no need to kick him first, or mace him first. You're life is in danger, and you are justified in shooting.

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I am glad to hear you have changed your mind. I have instructed many people to carry chambered and some still don't trust themselves or their guns enough to carry it loaded.

I have ran some of the people through scenarios to see how they do without one chambered and I can tell you that many times people have a malfunction when they are trying to rack the slide under pressure. So it is not just for the sake of speed that you carry chambered. I am glad you found this out, even if it was the hard way!

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HankT wrote:

Didn't he think about this before?

Deciding whether to carry C3 or one in the pipe is a CRUCIAL decision.

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I don't agree with that; I view it as more of a progression. I initially carried without one in the chamber, until I became more comfortable with my handling of my pistol.

Now that my CZ seems like an extension of my arm, I cannot ever imagine a reason NOT to have a round in the chamber, unless the gun is unloaded for transport or to hand to another person.

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I think I would find it a bit difficult to shoot a dog. I wouldn't have a problem if it was a person, because they will recognize the gun as my intent to defend myself, and if they keep comming it's their choice. But, I would feel a bit sorry for the dog, as it isn't his fault he was poorly trained.

That said, a growling snarling set of teeth comming my way will probably get me past my reluctance to fire.

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color of law wrote:

That's why I carry a revolver, don't need to think about a safety.

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My gun doesn't have a safety.

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I now pratice shooting short distanse weak side.

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Good idea.

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HankT wrote:

As far as your decision to permanently go from Condition 3 to one in the pipe solely due tothis particular incident doesn't seem justified. It is not solely based on this. I have thought about this quite a bit. There have been multiple threads and discussions on OCDO about this, and they brought up some really good questions. I always thought that I'd have enough time to pull and chamber a round. Turns out that's not always going to be true. I've practiced chambering rounds, but it still doesn't change the fact that it takes time you're not guaranteed you'll have. I'm not saying others are wrong for carrying without a round chambered, this is just the personal conclusion I've come to. You must have gone through some analysis to get you to a C3 default before. Whatever that analysis was, how does that change significantly enough to change to one in the pipe now?

What kind of gun were you carrying? Ruger P95DC Probably one without a manual safety, I'd guess. Yes.

I'd say think about the change for a few days before you drastically change your carry protocol. You may be overreacting... That might be true. Istill might carry occasionally without a round chambered, buta majority of the time Iplan on having one in the tube. It really depends on the situation.

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