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Thread: Hassled at a Restaurant for OC

  1. #1
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    Ok, this hassling for OC'in and the general lack of knowledge in the case of officer is getting ridiculous.

    Tonight, after chasing around looking for nice Poinsettias to give to my grandmother tomorrow, I stopped at the Sonic at Pittsburgh Mills for dinner. The car hop was full, so I got out and walked up, carrying as I always do, my Glock 22 at my side in a SERPA holster.

    While I was getting ready to place my order, I was approached by a man in a PA Department of Corrections cap, but otherwise in plain clothes. He asked my to put the gun in my car, which I politely refused (I'll only comply with that if it's the property owner or at the request of the property owner) and when asked WHY I was OC'ing, I responded that 1) It's my right to, and 2) becasue it isn't illegal. He then asked me for my ID, which I refused as he didn't have a badge, and even though he claimed to be an officer, the department he claimed to be with was 40 miles away. The man huffed a bit and walked off, and I noticed him on his cell phone.

    Knowing the inevitable, I got my LTCF and my Drivers License out of my wallet and put them in my front pocket.

    5 or so minutes later, I was confronted by thee officers (Two Tarentum/Frazier officers and an East Dear officer) who demanded my ID, and my LTCF. I complied. They told me that OC was illegal, and that I *must* keep the gun concealed at all times. I told them, again calmly and politely, that OC was perfectly legal in Pennsylvania, and that if they requested it I would have no problem putting on a jacket or un-tucking my shirt to cover the firearm.

    In the middle of this, the Manager of the sonic came out and asked what was going on. In response to being told about the complain against me OC'ing, she said "I don't have a problem with him having a gun" and walked back inside.

    After a 30 minute rigmarole of running my License number, LCTF number and gun Serial Number, I was told to leave the property immediately and if I didn't I would be charged with Disorderly Conduct under PA 18 section 5503(a)4. He also said if he saw me OC'ing again, he would arrest me, again under 5503(a)4.

    Now, I do plan on contacting the Tarentum Police Department and lodging a complaint over the officers attitude of "Your Wrong, We're Right, the end and we'll arrest you if you push the matter" even after being shown the PA UFA in the "Your Gun Rights" flyer from tbis site which I dug out about 15 minutes into the whole thing. (While they were reaching for straws trying to figure out if I was legal or not)

    Should I be worried about the sheriff revoking my LTCF like Greg Rotz? Should I pursue the matter further through Administrative Channels to be sure that the officers involved are properly educated? And if yes, how should I go about it?

    Any help is appreciated!

  2. #2
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    You handled the encounter well, lildobe. Calmly, courteously and pragmatically ( you didn't really have to show them ID/LTCF, I believe).

    I'm beginning to think that the basic response model you used here and the Agent 47 used the other day at Cabela's is the way to go for OC stops by yet-to-be-adequately informed LEOs.

    Much better results than those obtained by a certainindividual in Hampton VA who is using a less cooperative and less adaptable response model.

    Good luck with your complaint. It will be very credible, I think.

  3. #3
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    An excellent formal complaint letter can be found here: http://libertyismyhomie.blogspot.com...arlington.html

    Did you get the offenders' (oops, I meant officers') names? How did they manage to run your handgun's serial number? Clearly this appears to have been an illegal seizure and search.

    Don't take this lying down. Busted for Disorderly Conduct for Open Carrying? Sounds like a nice lawsuit. Check out the Virginia site above, copy as appropriately from the complaint letter, and send an info copy to Tarentum's head elected official. If you can, also get the name of the Department of Corrections cop wanna-be and send a letter of complaint to his boss, too.

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    I'm just mirroring what I replied to your post on the PAFOA forum:

    The very first thing you should do
    , before complaining, etc. is file for all info on the incident via freedom of information act. Since there was a citizen complaint, there wil be dispatch record, phone recording, car radio traffic (or transcripts) etc.
    If things went down the way you explain then the officers were a) wrong (obviously) and b) giving unlawful orders.

    Get the info FIRST.

    What PD was this?

    PS: you handled it well, were assertive but complied with the uniformed officers. I would have asked the idiot in the PADC hat to show me credentials or else shove off before I called the cops on him.

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    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    What PD was this?
    Fazier Twp, handled by Tarentum Borough officers (Tarentum provides Police Services to Frazier Twp.)

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    if you haven't already, cross-post this at PAFOA too. I'm sure there's some other members in your area there that can give added support; at the very least prompt some to do their own added visitation of the same area while OCing.

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    thirtyonebravo wrote:
    if you haven't already, cross-post this at PAFOA too. I'm sure there's some other members in your area there that can give added support; at the very least prompt some to do their own added visitation of the same area while OCing.

    http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed...aurant-oc.html

    Already done

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    In my view, while you handled it sufficiently well, there are a few things I would have done differently:

    1) Present your driver's license but not your LTCF. Unlicensed open carry on foot is entirely legal. If you were in your car, it would be a different story. But as I understand it, you were fully legal without a LTCF. I would request that the officers describe how you were "any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person" as defined in Section 6106 of Title 18.

    2) If you were in fact unlicensed, it would not be an option for you to cover up. While officers can request that you do it, you can politely decline to do so.

    3) I would ask why self-defense is not a legitimate purpose for carrying a gun, per the section of the "disorderly conduct" statute they were trying to misuse.

    4) I would ask why I must leave private property when the manager has not asked you to leave, and further has expressed that she feels no need for you to leave. Ask if they are familiar with Title 18, Section 5301. That's the one dealing with "Official Oppression".

    Once again, you didn't get shot or thrown on the ground, so it's a success in my book. Sure, you might have your LTCF revoked, but quite frankly, the "officers" involved may already be in the process of revoking it. And can illegitimately try to revoke it whenever they so choose.

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    Just reading the story especially after the property manager said it's ok I'M BOILING!!! I'd hit them with a case of Official Oppression at MINIMAL. Good time to take the fight to them.

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    Go to this website http://www.courts.state.pa.us/Index/Forms/AOPC411.pdf and download the Private Criminal Complaint form. Fill it out with all the pertinent data and submit it to the County’s District Attorney.

    Points to remember:

    18 [/b]Pa.[/b] C.S. §5301. Official oppression.[/b]

    A person acting or purporting to act in an official capacity or taking advantage of such actual or purported capacity commits a misdemeanor of the second degree if, knowing that his conduct is illegal, he:

    1. subjects another to arrest, detention, search, seizure, mistreatment, dispossession, assessment, lien or other infringement of personal or property rights; or

    2. denies or impedes another in the exercise or enjoyment of any right, privilege, power or immunity.

    You may also provide a press release to the local newspaper with a copy of the Private Criminal Complaint included.

  11. #11
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    When requesting information from the police or any other government agency, it's good to know what the law is. Here's Pennsylvania's Right To Know Law: http://www.post-gazette.com/FirstAme...w_firstam9.asp



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    should have quoted the terms of a usc 1983 under color of law offense to them, then a possible lawsuit, and if they persisted in their threats of becoming unlawful, quoted john bad elk to them and see what their idiotic response would have been.

    Morons broke the law, they should be made to pay with their jobs and their lives.

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    DKSuddeth wrote:
    should have quoted the terms of a usc 1983 under color of law offense to them, then a possible lawsuit, and if they persisted in their threats of becoming unlawful, quoted john bad elk to them and see what their idiotic response would have been.

    Morons broke the law, they should be made to pay with their jobs and their lives.
    I don't know how constructive threatening a lawsuit would have been.

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    DKSuddeth wrote:
    should have quoted the terms of a usc 1983 under color of law offense to them, then a possible lawsuit, and if they persisted in their threats of becoming unlawful, quoted john bad elk to them and see what their idiotic response would have been.

    Morons broke the law, they should be made to pay with their jobs and their lives.
    I don't know how constructive threatening a lawsuit would have been.
    About as constructive as them threatening an arrest was.

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    DKSuddeth wrote:
    imperialism2024 wrote:
    DKSuddeth wrote:
    should have quoted the terms of a usc 1983 under color of law offense to them, then a possible lawsuit, and if they persisted in their threats of becoming unlawful, quoted john bad elk to them and see what their idiotic response would have been.

    Morons broke the law, they should be made to pay with their jobs and their lives.
    I don't know how constructive threatening a lawsuit would have been.
    About as constructive as them threatening an arrest was.
    regardless - "Morons broke the law, they should be made to pay with their jobs and their lives." is a bit excessive, especially the latter.

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    thirtyonebravo wrote:
    DKSuddeth wrote:
    imperialism2024 wrote:
    DKSuddeth wrote:
    should have quoted the terms of a usc 1983 under color of law offense to them, then a possible lawsuit, and if they persisted in their threats of becoming unlawful, quoted john bad elk to them and see what their idiotic response would have been.

    Morons broke the law, they should be made to pay with their jobs and their lives.
    I don't know how constructive threatening a lawsuit would have been.
    About as constructive as them threatening an arrest was.
    regardless - "Morons broke the law, they should be made to pay with their jobs and their lives." is a bit excessive, especially the latter.
    One thing I've learned in my life is that it's a very bad idea to threaten lawsuits. If you're going to file a lawsuit, just do it and don't threaten. It closes a lot of doors.

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    thirtyonebravo wrote:
    regardless - "Morons broke the law, they should be made to pay with their jobs and their lives." is a bit excessive, especially the latter.
    ok, lives was meant as in 'prosperous' lives, not their actual living breathing lives. my bad for being too literal.

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    I find it funny that a corrections officer from over 40 miles away thinks he has the authority to ask you for that information. I probably would not have been so kind to politely refuse.

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    openryan wrote:
    I find it funny that a corrections officer from over 40 miles away thinks he has the authority to ask you for that information. I probably would not have been so kind to politely refuse.
    "Respect my authoritah!"



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    Be kind, be cooperative, then file a complaint. No one deserves to be treated this way. It is a plain and simple case of official oppression. Hire a lawyer and file a private complaint after using your FOIA to get official records. Good luck.

  21. #21
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    DKSuddeth wrote:
    thirtyonebravo wrote:
    regardless - "Morons broke the law, they should be made to pay with their jobs and their lives." is a bit excessive, especially the latter.
    ok, lives was meant as in 'prosperous' lives, not their actual living breathing lives. my bad for being too literal.
    That's kind of a bad error. It could easily be interpreted as a threat. I don't think that OCDO needs to get any more of a cop-bashing rep than it already has.

    It's great you recanted, albeit in a rather contrived manner. If you ever get in a formal beef with LEOs....good luck.

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    HankT wrote:
    That's kind of a bad error. It could easily be interpreted as a threat. I don't think that OCDO needs to get any more of a cop-bashing rep than it already has.

    It's great you recanted, albeit in a rather contrived manner. If you ever get in a formal beef with LEOs....good luck.
    You, above all, should know that not all words that are typed on a screen get interpreted in the terms they were meant. If someone wants to take what I typed as a threat, nothing is really going to change their minds on it. If someone can't determine that my recant was serious instead of contrived, so be it.

    Cop bashing? eh, some cops deserve it. Some cops don't. I've always tried to treat any one person as an individual entity, with the respect deserved as a single entity. When that individual chooses to align themselves in a group that has bad apples, and then defend those bad apples, they are no longer representing themselves as a single entity. If cop bashing becomes a result of that, then one should wonder why is it that they are being bashed instead of complaining about being generalized.

    If I ever get in to a formal beef with a LEO, they had better be conducting themselves within the law. Acting outside of the law offers them no protection. This crap about letting bad cops walk all over you while being subservient and polite and then taking them to court is relatively useless. Unless one has video and audio proof that their rights were violated, they have little chance at getting any real redress of grievance. If there is one thing I've learned about the judicial system in this country, it is that citizens only have the rights and protections any judge wishes to grant them at that particular time and it usually doesn't beat the word of a police officer.

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    openryan wrote:
    I find it funny that a corrections officer from over 40 miles away thinks he has the authority to ask you for that information. I probably would not have been so kind to politely refuse.
    So do I. I wouldn't expect him to have any more authority than anyone else outside of the prison. But, who knows... I suppose each state is different.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    I was just wondering if anything new has happened with this situation. I am really interested since I live in the area and know several officers on both forces. Until reacently I would have sided with the officers. I was suprised to find this was still the law of the land. I thought it had been changed years ago (damn liberal rumour mongers if they can't legislate a change they just do it by innuendo). I am a criminal justice student and my instructors all are giving the wrong information (including one who is a former cop and is now a Defense attorney who specializes in constitutional cases (i.e. 4th and 5th ammend.) I wouludn't have been enlightened except I stumbled accross PAopencarry.org when trying to find info on renewing my LCCF.

    BTW I am mailing the Law Enforcement Letter of Info to all the local police agencies.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Nothing came of it, really. PA Patriot sent his training memo to the Tarentum PD and we never heard anything beyond that. I never was able to schedule a time to sit down with the Chief of Police.

    And I've not had a reason to go beck to The Mills since then either - so I haven't tested the waters. Though I am thinking of hosting the next Pittsburgh OC dinner up there

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