UDF robbed in Norwood. OH: Armed men ignore sign and rob UDF store

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http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071115/NEWS01/311150008

The Enquirer tells a small part of the story only:

NORWOOD – Police are searching today for three masked gunmen who robbed United Dairy Farmers, 2059 Dale Road, and a customer.

No injuries were reported in the 11:31 p.m. incident. Police later found the empty cash register drawer on Carthage Avenue, said Norwood Police Officer Michael Spilley.

One of the robbers brandished a long weapon that resembled a rifle; the other two carried pistols, he said. All three wore gloves.

They robbed a customer of cash and took the cash register drawer out.

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A blogger tells the rest http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/article4054.html:

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"The most shocking part of this story is that in addition to violating several state and federal felony statutes, they ignored the small 'No Weapons' signed displayed on the window next to the entrance door. It appears that the criminals, intent on committing armed robbery, didn't care about UDF's rights as a property owner."

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The statewide group Ohioans For Concealed Carry tried and tried topersuade UDF on this, but they never budged. Their director of security is especially odious. Yet their security team that's used for corporate VIPs is armed to the teeth with all forms of boomsticks including Class III.

Good luck to Buckeye Fireams Association in their attempts to "fix stupid".

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I did not know that UDF had such a policy. I go to one of two UDFs every day. Neither of them have a sign posted. Both morning crews at each know me as a regular. I OC and CC in both and neither have ever said anything to me. They also know I am not LEO.

I don't understand UDFs attitude. If you check the stats for the four counties (Butler, Clermont, Hamilton and Warren) the total population is 1.5 million and, according to AG numbers, there is approx. 15,000 CC license holders for the four counties.

I believe that loosing that many customers would represent at least a minimum 4 million in anual sales. That is not chump change.

These figures don't count OC people and people who support the right of people who CC and OC.

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color of law, it's possible you didn't notice the signs. I've missed them here in Cincinnati, and then did a double-take on my way out when I noticed it off to the side and very small in size.

It is a shame they choose to post; I don't patronize them anymore.

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I finely spotted the signs. I surely don’t believe the posting meets the statute requirement.

2923.126(C)(3) The owner or person in control of private land…, may post a sign in a conspicuous location on that land or on those premises prohibiting persons from carrying firearms or concealed firearms on or onto that land or those premises.

I had to look allover the front window to find the 3 in. by 5 in. clear sign. The sign is surrounded by credit card signs and money order signs. Conspicuous, it is not. And yes, the red picture and black lettering are printed on a clear plastic material. In other words, the red and black blends in with whatever colors are in the store. Almost impossible to see and read.

As far is I’m concerned the signs are not there. And as I said in the earlier post the employees have never said a word to me. I even wonder if the employees know that the signs are even posted.

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Its so easy, one guy robbed the same store twice in a 24 hour period.



http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=13685&highlight=udf

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color of law wrote:

I finely spotted the signs. I surely don’t believe the posting meets the statute requirement.

2923.126(C)(3) The owner or person in control of private land…, may post a sign in a conspicuous location on that land or on those premises prohibiting persons from carrying firearms or concealed firearms on or onto that land or those premises.

I had to look allover the front window to find the 3 in. by 5 in. clear sign. The sign is surrounded by credit card signs and money order signs. Conspicuous, it is not. And yes, the red picture and black lettering are printed on a clear plastic material. In other words, the red and black blends in with whatever colors are in the store. Almost impossible to see and read.

As far is I’m concerned the signs are not there. And as I said in the earlier post the employees have never said a word to me. I even wonder if the employees know that the signs are even posted.

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Much as I miss the ice cream and shopping there in general, I'm continuing my boycott. The trouble is, as you've mentioned, is that too many of those other gun owners either don't know, forgot, or don't care, about this policy.

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No....a criminal who doesn't care what the laws are, and doesn't care about a little sign in a window? That pretty much makes him, well....a criminal, huh? :idea:

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So based on that sign I can open carry in UDF.

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This one says "No weapons" So I wouldn't try it.................But there are some signs that just say "no concealed carry"............Them I try.........:what:

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My firearm is not a weapon until I use it as such, is it?

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It's clear that the sign does not allow weapons of any kind. Of course my car keys could be considered a weapon.

2923.126(C)(3) The owner or person in control of private land or premises, and a private person or entity leasing land or premises owned by the state, the United States, or a political subdivision of the state or the United States, may post a sign in a conspicuous location on that land or on those premises prohibiting persons from carrying firearms or concealed firearms on or onto that land or those premises. A person who knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature is guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and is guilty of a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.

2911.21(A)(4) Being on the land or premises of another, negligently fail or refuse to leave upon being notified by signage posted in a conspicuous place or otherwise being notified to do so by the owner or occupant, or the agent or servant of either.

Black's Law Dictionary defines (fifth edition) "Conspicuous Place" Within the meaning of a statute relating to the posting of notices, a "conspicuous place" means one of which is reasonably calculated to impart the information in question.

Place and Location are [size="-1"]synominious. "...[/size]is reasonably calculated to impart the information..."

If I have to look all over the place to find the information, then it is not conspicuously placed.

I remember a federal case involving a contract that had fine print that refered to additional terms in regards to the contract. The court ruled that even though the notice was on the face of the contract, the notice was not Conspicuously Placed and was not in bold enough print to draw your attention to the notice. Please don't ask me to cite the case, it was at least 30 years ago.
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[/size]2911.21(A)(3) Recklessly enter or remain on the land or premises of another, as to which notice against unauthorized access or presence is given by actual communication to the offender, or in a manner prescribed by law, or by posting in a manner reasonably calculated to come to the attention of potential intruders, or by fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed to restrict access;

The way I see it, if the sign/notice is not on the door at eye level so I can see the sign when I walk in then the sign does not meet the statutory construction.

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It's clear that the sign does not allow weapons of any kind. Of course my car keys could be considered a weapon.

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That is true, your keys do not become a weapon until used as such........But the firearm as already been determined to be a weapon by theORC whether it is used as one or not...............:uhoh:

I for one am very deadly with a pencil or pen thru the eye socket.............But they are not weapons until used as such, I can draw my belt and warp your head with the buckle faster then you can draw a gun from concealment....:celebrate

Laws should be enforced based upon intent.............Not circumstances............

Example : Carrying a handgun out of waistband in holsteron a bright sunny day,intent is to open carry..............Storm clouds hit, it rains I put on raincoat, My intent is still to open carry just cirumstances concealed the weapon.....Am I guilty of concealed carry??

Apply the same logic the LE uses.............Say the the sun sets, the cover of darkness conceals my weapon...........Am I guilty of concealed carry??