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Thread: Anti open carry article

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    Regular Member reefteach's Avatar
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    Ifhis name sounds familiar, it is because he does a piece on NRA News every Wednesday. He is a radio talk show guy from Rochester NY.



    http://www.lonsberry.com/writings.cf...=2270&go=4


    I'm not bothered by a gun on your hip, but some people would be. And we gun owners don't make any friends when we rudely ignore the opinions of those people.
    And we may incite a fight we don't want. If our common sense doesn't tell us to keep our pistols out of sight, our neighbors might push for a law that will.
    And that wouldn't be good for anyone.
    Blah, Blah, Blah.

    There is also reference to our Utah OCers.



    The blog allows comments, and he responds to a good deal of them.


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    The full text puts the comments in more context:

    [line]KEEP IT IN YOUR PANTS, PARDNER
    In Utah, you can carry a gun without a permit.
    You can pull out grandpa's six-shooter and strap it on and go do your grocery shopping.
    Actually, you can do that in a variety of states, but the subject is in the news in Utah because a group of gun owners are trying to get some publicity.
    So they're packing.
    Out about their every-day lives they have on their hip some kind of handgun, usually a pretty big one, and they wear it for all to see.
    The idea is that if you don't exercise a right, you might lose it. Further, they want to "normalize" carrying a gun, to make it seem more acceptable to folks.
    I appreciate what they're doing. And I admire them. But in most situations, I wouldn't do the same myself.
    Don't get me wrong. I believe in the Second Amendment. I'm a proud commentator for NRAnews.com. When I get done making the payments I'll be a life member of the National Rifle Assocaition. I carry a gun myself most days and I believe absolutely in the right to defend yourself and your freedoms.
    And I like Utah's law just the way it is. There is no ban on public carry of handguns, and I don't think there should be.
    But at the same time, I think that along with my rights I have some obligations, and that courtesy can be the companion of liberty.
    Here's what I mean: I wouldn't carry a handgun openly under most circumstances because it would freak people out.
    I believe in carrying guns, and I insist that I have a legal right to do so. But not everyone feels the same way. And the simple fact is that if you have a gun on your hip, and you're not wearing a badge, most people are going to see that as odd and people who are not comfortable with guns are going to be a bit squeemish about it.
    And I don't want to disrespect those people, even if I disagree with them.
    If I can make a personal choice that shows courtesy to another person, I should. If I can carry a gun in a fashion that does not alarm or trouble other people I should.
    I make plenty of stands for firearms ownership. Usually I do that by wearing an NRA shirt and by talking up guns with the people I meet.
    But I fear my rudeness can lead to other people's rudeness. And if I don't show respect for people who don't like guns, I can't be surprised when they don't show respect for those of us who do.
    Wearing a handgun on your hip out in the open is apt to ruffle the feathers of anti-gun people. There's no reason for them to be upset, but you're crazy if you don't realize that they will be upset. So if you disregard their feelings and reactions and and wear out in the open, it won't be long before a few of them start disregarding your feelings and reactions and saying that the law ought to prevent you from wearing a gun out in the open.
    I think wearing a pistol on your hip is natural and appropriate in a variety of settings. Like hiking or horseback riding or out on your ATV. When you are in the out of doors and you might want to shoot or may need a handgun to defend yourself against animals or humans, carrying on your hip makes perfect sense. Often when I hunt or hike I carry a handgun in that fashion.
    But going to the store is not hiking. And Main Street is not a mountain trail.
    And there's no point is whacking the hornet's nest if you don't have to.
    Again, don't get me wrong. I'm not ashamed of guns or of the Second Amendment. I think it is important to teach people about firearms and how common and safely used they are. I believe that speaking and teaching about the Second Amendment are essential. I've usually got a copy of "Guns and Ammo" or "American Rifleman" on my desk at work. I want to be a missionary carrying the message of responsible ownership to those who've never been around guns and consequently think they don't like them.
    But I don't believe in pushing my luck.
    And I don't believe in being rude.
    And I think there might be a better approach than rubbing people's faces in a holstered gun on the hip at the mall. That starts conversations about guns, but more often than not it's not going to be a good conversation. Far better, I believe, to legally carry concealed, thereby preserving my safety and the other fellow's peace of mind.
    People who don't like guns are just as entitled to that viewpoint as I am to mine. The right to own a gun implies the equal right not to own a gun. There are important issues to fight over in society -- like the protection of the Second Amendment -- but common courtesy is the obligation of every citizen and good person.
    I'm not bothered by a gun on your hip, but some people would be. And we gun owners don't make any friends when we rudely ignore the opinions of those people.
    And we may incite a fight we don't want. If our common sense doesn't tell us to keep our pistols out of sight, our neighbors might push for a law that will.
    And that wouldn't be good for anyone.
    I have a right to carry a gun, and I have an obligation to be thoughtful of other people.
    So I'm going to carry a gun, but you're not going to know about it.
    And most of the time, I think that's the best way to go.
    [line]



    It seems to be a fairly well-written article expressing his opinion of why OC is detrimental. He's not one of the people who believes that OC is bad because CC allows a person to, while a BG is shooting up a McDonalds, duck into the shadows, wrestle one's pistol with a 500-round clip from one's rectum holster, and then proceed to creep up behind the BG and execute him. Rather, he's expressing why he wouldn't want to OC often in the hopes of not offending anti's... but isn't condemning those who do. While his article does seem to lose all credibility by his beration of OCers in the first few lines, he appears to gather his thought together into a meaningful article after that.

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    KEEP IT IN YOUR PANTS, PARDNER

    ...[smart remark removed]

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    I believe in the Equal Right to carryor not to carry.

    I OC most of the time and under certain circumstances it's more appropriate to CC I believe too. I don't know what to make of the article. So far I haven't really "offended" anyone. I quess that can happen IF one does not meet the conversation with great caution and well thoughtout responses.

    The more people will see "legal" guns on hips OCing the more used to it they will get. There are PLENTY of things that I get "offended" over EVERY day as I meet people. But I realize thay they have the Right to look a certain way, smell a certain way and even talk a certain way.

    Hell...People talk on the Ph while driving or even when they are at the register paying for groceries...offensive...sure. But can I do anything about it...NO

    This "offended" business has gone a "LITTLE" bit overboard here in the U.S.

    If a person doesn't like me OCing...like cops gives their "opinon" to cover up. I ask the person -"Is it illegal what I am doing?" -"No?" -"Why should I then cover "IT up". -"I am "offended that you DON'T carry":celebrate

    I can have a personal opinion how a person looks, for example, fat,slim,bald,unkempt and be "offended" because it's not "within"MY perimeter of how a person should look.

    OPINIONS...bla...bla...bla. That's what makes a CIVIL discussion GREAT and the world go around.



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    Another goof with a podium that DOESN'T open carry but is somehow an expert on what open carry does or doesn't do.

    And since he is in NY why does he even care.?? Mind your own business you nosey NY'er.

    Next.



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    This country is dying of political correctness. We have the right to keep and BEAR arms. We can obtain the PRIVELLAGE to conceal arms. Some people do not have the option to conceal, so they must openly carry. If seeing my pistol makes somebody "scared" or "uneasy" then tough. They should be more afraid of my big black 3000 pound automobile. It is certainly more dangerous than my holstered Glock.
    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
    Thomas Jefferson

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    The full text puts the comments in more context:
    KEEP IT IN YOUR PANTS, PARDNER
    But I don't believe in pushing my luck.
    And I don't believe in being rude.
    And I think there might be a better approach than rubbing people's faces in a holstered gun on the hip at the mall. That starts conversations about guns, but more often than not it's not going to be a good conversation.
    Pushing your luck is carrying a concealed handgun without a license to conceal. Pushing your luck is remaining unarmed in circumstances where it would be prudent to be prepared.

    Being rude is an action- the mere presense of a firearm- having an inanimate object in your possession is not rude, unlessone starts pointing it at people with no good G*d damn reason.

    I am not responsible for other people's irrational fear of a lawfully carried firearm.

    When a gunowner choses to conceal for the sake of placating people's irrational fears, they are helping the anti-gun opposition in reducing the tolerance of lawful gun owners. On the flip-side, when a firearm is openly carried in a lawful manner, the reaction in most cases, even here in California, is that the action is assumedto be'not prohibited' or the individualis authorized to do so.

    This exposure of lawful gun owners helps demystify gun ownership and open a dialogue with those who are genuinely open minded. The 'negative conversations' this writer is refering to, are undoubtly going to be instigated by those who have already been indoctrinated into a belief that guns are inherently bad, no matter who owns or carries them. So, should we be silenced for fear that we will offend someone with our principles? Should gun owners be 'closeted' so that ourchoices can be excoriated and subjected to intolerance without regular and conspicuous dissent?

    Screw that. That is exactly the reason why we are in the situation where the Supreme court has to rule on whether the second is a individual right or a collective one. When you fail to excersize the second as an individual right, the law will seize this as the opportunity to legislate as if it is not.

    A final note- Perhaps Im being too harsh on the writer (and certainly on my local Sheriff), but you are either pro-gun or pro-gun control. As a strict constructionist, my view is that there is no grey area or reason to compromise when the second tells us that the right of the people shall not be infringed.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    ConditionThree wrote:
    imperialism2024 wrote:
    The full text puts the comments in more context:
    KEEP IT IN YOUR PANTS, PARDNER
    But I don't believe in pushing my luck.
    And I don't believe in being rude.
    And I think there might be a better approach than rubbing people's faces in a holstered gun on the hip at the mall. That starts conversations about guns, but more often than not it's not going to be a good conversation.
    Pushing your luck is carrying a concealed handgun without a license to conceal. Pushing your luck is remaining unarmed in circumstances where it would be prudent to be prepared.

    Being rude is an action- the mere presense of a firearm- having an inanimate object in your possession is not rude, unlessone starts pointing it at people with no good G*d damn reason.

    I am not responsible for other people's irrational fear of a lawfully carried firearm.

    When a gunowner choses to conceal for the sake of placating people's irrational fears, they are helping the anti-gun opposition in reducing the tolerance of lawful gun owners. On the flip-side, when a firearm is openly carried in a lawful manner, the reaction in most cases, even here in California, is that the action is assumedto be'not prohibited' or the individualis authorized to do so.

    This exposure of lawful gun owners helps demystify gun ownership and open a dialogue with those who are genuinely open minded. The 'negative conversations' this writer is refering to, are undoubtly going to be instigated by those who have already been indoctrinated into a belief that guns are inherently bad, no matter who owns or carries them. So, should we be silenced for fear that we will offend someone with our principles? Should gun owners be 'closeted' so that ourchoices can be excoriated and subjected to intolerance without regular and conspicuous dissent?

    Screw that. That is exactly the reason why we are in the situation where the Supreme court has to rule on whether the second is a individual right or a collective one. When you fail to excersize the second as an individual right, the law will seize this as the opportunity to legislate as if it is not.

    A final note- Perhaps Im being too harsh on the writer (and certainly on my local Sheriff), but you are either pro-gun or pro-gun control. As a strict constructionist, my view is that there is no grey area or reason to compromise when the second tells us that the right of the people shall not be infringed.
    Oh, I agree with you. But I'm not going to demonize the writer for expressing his views. If he wants to not OC out of fear of being "rude" to people, then fine. I'll respectfully disagree.

    I'm also much more open to the "OC offends people" argument than the "OC is a tactical disadvantage" argument. Maybe that's why I don't find his article all that bothersome...

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    I wrote a brief comment on his article. And will follow up with some more

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    # 17. 11/21/07 6:32 AM by tv - rochester, ny
    "
    Absolutely. Legally carrying a gun is just fine. However, I think that many people see that openly carrying a device that can cause instant death as a threat. "

    It must freak people out to drive down the road and see all of those devices (cars) that can, and do cause instant death.

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    I use to listen to Lonsberry's radio show in the 80/90's whenI lived upin that area. He was always on the conservative / libertarian end of the spectrum &I enjoyed his show. Not sure if he's changed his philosophy any in past 20 years. Frankly, the article does not seem like the Bob I remember.

    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    And since he is in NY why does he even care.?? Mind your own business you nosey NY'er.
    [/quote]Don't confuse the mindset of "upstate" NY'ers with those in NY city. Upstate is far more conservative & gun friendly. I had more shooting ranges around my house in the Finger Lakes than I do here in Virginia Beach. Many upstater's would love to saw off the lower 1/3 of the state & give it to New Jersey. They already have the football teams..might has well get the population w/ them.

    Ihad aNY CWP & carried nearly everyday of the 17 years I lived in New York.Personally, I still prefer concealed carry but support the right to open carry 100%. It's a personal choice andnon-gun carriersfeelings or inability to deal with itare irrelevant.




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    NytoVa wrote:
    Don't confuse the mindset of "upstate" NY'ers with those in NY city
    Uh... I was born 'n raised in upstate NY (Cattskills) But thanks








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    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    Uh... I was born 'n raised in upstate NY (Cattskills) But thanks
    Well, no way I would have known that.

    I always find it amusing when I tell someone I use to live in New York they immediately assume thecity.Manyhave no idea how big the state is or even how farSyracuse, Rochester, and Buffalo are from NY city.

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    NytoVa wrote:
    Well, no way I would have known that.

    I always find it amusing when I tell someone I use to live in New York they immediately assume thecity.Manyhave no idea how big the state is or even how farSyracuse, Rochester, and Buffalo are from NY city.
    I hear ya. Ain't it a shame the state is ruined because of that cesspool?
    I would LOVE to move back to my homestead..... Ain't going to happen though

    ETA: I'm closer (geographically) to NYC where I am in PA now then where I was then in NY... Ironic.


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    Here's what I posted on his page"

    "I guess I'm one of those offensive people...

    I personally don't think I should pay another tax in order to practice my constitutionally recognized rights -- paying for a Permit is just that.
    If it was not illegal to carry concealed, I would do so most of the time. I'm not out to offend anybody, any more than black people were out to offend others by drinking from "white water fountains", or sitting at the front of the bus; but oh my, was THAT offensive!
    If you are offended by my arming myself, then you have your own bigotry to deal with. So deal with it.
    Gay Pride Parades are offensive to some, does this make them a**holes, as you so eloquently put it?
    Ever hear of the Million Moms March? Those people ARE offensive, but that is due to how they conduct themselves. If they would conduct themselves in a mature manner while conducting their activist activities, it would not be offensive, even though I do not agree with their message.
    Some people might also have a completely baseless fear of V-Neck sweaters, does this mean that you should change the picture that you display on your site, for fear that someone might be offended?
    Face it, exposure breeds tolerance. Whatever your reasons for carrying, openly or concealed, you should not give up your God-Given rights to defend yourself, based on what others might think.
    I'll bet George Washington, John Adams, and Ben Franklin did and said some things that were offensive to some folks. Remember THOSE a**holes?"

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    Uraijit wrote:
    Here's what I posted on his page"

    "I guess I'm one of those offensive people...

    I personally don't think I should pay another tax in order to practice my constitutionally recognized rights -- paying for a Permit is just that.
    If it was not illegal to carry concealed, I would do so most of the time. I'm not out to offend anybody, any more than black people were out to offend others by drinking from "white water fountains", or sitting at the front of the bus; but oh my, was THAT offensive!
    If you are offended by my arming myself, then you have your own bigotry to deal with. So deal with it.
    Gay Pride Parades are offensive to some, does this make them a**holes, as you so eloquently put it?
    Ever hear of the Million Moms March? Those people ARE offensive, but that is due to how they conduct themselves. If they would conduct themselves in a mature manner while conducting their activist activities, it would not be offensive, even though I do not agree with their message.
    Some people might also have a completely baseless fear of V-Neck sweaters, does this mean that you should change the picture that you display on your site, for fear that someone might be offended?
    Face it, exposure breeds tolerance. Whatever your reasons for carrying, openly or concealed, you should not give up your God-Given rights to defend yourself, based on what others might think.
    I'll bet George Washington, John Adams, and Ben Franklin did and said some things that were offensive to some folks. Remember THOSE a**holes?"
    You bring up some very good points there. I'd be interested to see his response...

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    I posted:



    Bob - your "Editor's Note" on Mike Stollenwerk's comment regarding the number fo states that allow Open Carry is incorrect. 44 states allow the open carry of HANDGUNS...not just long guns. Its saddening to see the number of uninformed/misinformed gun owners making comments on this topic. I find it amusing when I read statements like "I support the RTKBA but you should only carry concealed". Are you really a supporter? Sincerely, Another Loose Writer

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    Did the article even mention the requirement to OC in VA at certain locations? What is expected then? Disarmament?

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    NytoVa wrote:
    Don't confuse the mindset of "upstate" NY'ers with those in NY city. Upstate is far more conservative & gun friendly. I had more shooting ranges around my house in the Finger Lakes than I do here in Virginia Beach. Many upstater's would love to saw off the lower 1/3 of the state & give it to New Jersey. They already have the football teams..might has well get the population w/ them.

    Ihad aNY CWP & carried nearly everyday of the 17 years I lived in New York.Personally, I still prefer concealed carry but support the right to open carry 100%. It's a personal choice andnon-gun carriersfeelings or inability to deal with itare irrelevant.


    Well put... he, as well as those that OC'in would offend should realize that whether to CC or OC IS a personal choice.If Utah states that it is legal to OC... then he shouldnt have a problem with it waaaayyy over there inRochester.Being a gun supporter he should focus more on anti-gun laws as opposed to pro-gun laws.

    P.S. I grew up in NYC and stayed there well into my adult life... It is a shame at how their gun control laws are so anti-constitutional. Growing up in some of the worse neighborhoods in NYC, almost EVERYONE had guns, especially the criminals. And its sad to say that these laws only create defenseless victims because the criminals keep their guns with them.
    [/quote]


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    It looks like good ole' Bob has locked his thread - not more comments allows :X

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    Mike wrote:
    It looks like good ole' Bob has locked his thread - not more comments allows :X
    Well, Mike don't be to sorry. He didn't even post mine at all. It was a good one to. I IDed myself as one of the Guys being part of those 2 articles in Utah. I stated that I OC most of the time but CC when more appropriate I also said that I carry due to the fact that when Seconds count the average national response by Cops is 5-7 min. I stated that I carry because and quoted "Law enforcement agencies and personnel have no duty to protect individuals from the criminal acts of others; instead their duty is to preserve the peace and arrest law breakers for the protection of the general public." from this link http://publicrights.org/Kennesaw/PoliceResponsibility.html,and some more Bla,bla,bla...

    I guess he didn't like what I said...I guess I OFFENDED HIM:celebrate




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    I sent Bob the following email:

    --
    Subject:
    Facts on open carry of handguns

    Date:
    11/23/2007 8:40:30 A.M. Eastern Standard Time

    From:
    Reply To:
    To:
    Bob@Lonsberry.com
    CC:

    Bob,

    I have posted comments to your Editor's notes today at http://www.lonsberry.com/writings.cfm?story=2270&go=4to clear things up - please check your system to make sure they post properly.

    Please spend some time studying our interactive maps at OpenCarry.org.

    These are the factsthat people need to understand:

    1. Only 6 states ban open carry (NY, SC, FL, AR, OK, and TX).

    2. In no state does the issuance of a concealed handgun permit preclude the restrict the open carry rights of the permittee that he had before the permit was issued.

    Mike Stollenwerk
    OpenCarry.org

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    packingmama wrote:
    This country is dying of political correctness. We have the right to keep and BEAR arms. We can obtain the PRIVELLAGE to conceal arms. Some people do not have the option to conceal, so they must openly carry. If seeing my pistol makes somebody "scared" or "uneasy" then tough. They should be more afraid of my big black 3000 pound automobile. It is certainly more dangerous than my holstered Glock.
    ++1 Yeah since when do you have the "right" not to be offended. I could care less if someone else is offended by how I dress or if I wear a gun on my hip.

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    ConditionThree wrote:
    imperialism2024 wrote:
    The full text puts the comments in more context:
    KEEP IT IN YOUR PANTS, PARDNER
    But I don't believe in pushing my luck.
    And I don't believe in being rude.
    And I think there might be a better approach than rubbing people's faces in a holstered gun on the hip at the mall. That starts conversations about guns, but more often than not it's not going to be a good conversation.
    Pushing your luck is carrying a concealed handgun without a license to conceal. Pushing your luck is remaining unarmed in circumstances where it would be prudent to be prepared.

    Being rude is an action- the mere presense of a firearm- having an inanimate object in your possession is not rude, unlessone starts pointing it at people with no good G*d damn reason.

    I am not responsible for other people's irrational fear of a lawfully carried firearm.

    When a gunowner choses to conceal for the sake of placating people's irrational fears, they are helping the anti-gun opposition in reducing the tolerance of lawful gun owners. On the flip-side, when a firearm is openly carried in a lawful manner, the reaction in most cases, even here in California, is that the action is assumedto be'not prohibited' or the individualis authorized to do so.

    This exposure of lawful gun owners helps demystify gun ownership and open a dialogue with those who are genuinely open minded. The 'negative conversations' this writer is refering to, are undoubtly going to be instigated by those who have already been indoctrinated into a belief that guns are inherently bad, no matter who owns or carries them. So, should we be silenced for fear that we will offend someone with our principles? Should gun owners be 'closeted' so that ourchoices can be excoriated and subjected to intolerance without regular and conspicuous dissent?

    Screw that. That is exactly the reason why we are in the situation where the Supreme court has to rule on whether the second is a individual right or a collective one. When you fail to excersize the second as an individual right, the law will seize this as the opportunity to legislate as if it is not.

    A final note- Perhaps Im being too harsh on the writer (and certainly on my local Sheriff), but you are either pro-gun or pro-gun control. As a strict constructionist, my view is that there is no grey area or reason to compromise when the second tells us that the right of the people shall not be infringed.
    +1

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    NytoVa wrote:
    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    Uh... I was born 'n raised in upstate NY (Cattskills) But thanks
    Well, no way I would have known that.

    I always find it amusing when I tell someone I use to live in New York they immediately assume thecity.Manyhave no idea how big the state is or even how farSyracuse, Rochester, and Buffalo are from NY city.
    I get the same reaction when I tell people I'm from Massachusetts.They always assume I live in Boston.

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