Now i get it

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Now I getit.

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If you search the forum, you can find many, many reasons why one would OC. It's just personal choice.

Even I CC sometimes. I have yet to have a BG take me out first because I was OCing.

The scenario you described is a very typical CC mind set, IMO. Most people I talk to give something similar and it could happen. Haven't seen or read any incidents with that similar scenario. However I do recall a gentleman OCing in a bank and unknowing thwarted the robber without even touching his firearm. Robber comes in with ski mask on,notices gentleman OCing, runs out. No shots, no foul.

Yes, Dennis O'Connor, saved the day without even moving an inch to his firearm. That is a real life scenario. Fact is, bad guys want easy in, easy out. They target where they think no one is armed. History, facts, and statistics all show that.

But again, it's all about personal choice.

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1) Do a search. Like you noticed, you ARE on an OPEN CARRY site.

2)Couple key replies to your post.
The "element of surprise" is entirely over-rated. You sure your going to be able to get to your gun?
It also completely discounts the deterrant factor of open carry. The vast majority of criminals will shop elsewhere when they realize there are hard targets in the area.

If the crime/criminal is deterred there is no "suprise" (that you may not be able to get to before your DEAD) needed.

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danbus wrote:

If you search the forum, you can find many, many reasons why one would OC. It's just personal choice.

Even I CC sometimes. I have yet to have a BG take me out first because I was OCing.

The scenario you described is a very typical CC mind set, IMO. Most people I talk to give something similar and it could happen. Haven't seen or read any incidents with that similar scenario. However I do recall a gentleman OCing in a bank and unknowing thwarted the robber without even touching his firearm. Robber comes in with ski mask on,notices gentleman OCing, runs out. No shots, no foul.

Yes, Dennis O'Connor, saved the day without even moving an inch to his firearm. That is a real life scenario. Fact is, bad guys want easy in, easy out. They target where they think no one is armed. History, facts, and statistics all show that.

But again, it's all about personal choice.

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I also carry in both modes. It really depends upon several factors and one or two arbitrary factors for me. Just this morning, I drove to my local BP station to fill up my TL. For that part of the trip, I OC'd. Then in the same shopping complex, I went into a grocery store to pick up some grapes. I shop at this store every week and since last July, I have been OC'ing there. However this morning, for some reason, I covered my gun with my shirttail to go CC. Just a whim and I cannot explain the "why" of it.

Since I consider myself still new at OC'ing (last July), I tend to be somewhat discriminating when deciding to OC. Most of the time, when circumstances permit (weather, etc.), I find myself OC'ing. But I still do CC as well.

It is nice to have the option of doing either.

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Intersting replies I am also on Defensivecarry.com, and the M&P Board where the majority of the members Carry Concealed. I'll be chiming in from time to time. until next time be safe.

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Hondov65 wrote:

Intersting replies I am also on Defensivecarry.com, and the M&P Board where the majority of the members Carry Concealed. I'll be chiming in from time to time. until next time be safe.

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I'm not 100% sure, butis it true thatmajority who CC are inclined to think that OC is something reserved for asshats and assclowns?

It's been my experience reading that mostCCers tend to be closed minded on OC, however manyOCers have an open mind on both OC and CC.

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I've posted a story on other threads on this site about an article I read in the Arizona Republic recently. A 20-something year old waitress was walking home after her shift at midnight in Gilbert, AZ (recently named one of the safest cities in America).

Two illegals stopped their truck and attempted to rob her. She did not have a gun, but she did have a knife and managed to slash one and yell loudly enough to scare them off.

The part of the story I found interesting was that they had been driving around for 20 minutes "looking for an easy victim." If you're open carrying, you are not going to give the appearance of being "an easy victim." Can't say the same for concealed carry, can you?

Open carrying (IMO), is more likely to prevent you from getting into a situation in the first place. Concealed carry has ZERO deterrent value, but when they do come at you, at least you're armed.

Personally, I'd rather avoid the situation in the first place.

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A weapon cannot be a crime deterent until it is either exposed or drawn in self-defense. So, unless it is known that many or most people conceal carry, a handgun cannot prevent crime.

The difference between open carry and concealed carry can be extrapolated into two philosophies. One carries as aproactive deterent, the other carries in reactionary self-defense. In either case, I believe there is an equal chance of being shot by an armed assailant in a confrontation whether or not you carry concealed.

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Read this... and then think carefully. Carry you gun, concealed, open or otherwise, carry!

[align=center] A Brother is Murdered[/align] [align=center] [/align][align=center]By James Yeager [/align] One of our brothers, a student, is dead. We will call him Rob. Rob was murdered September 13th, 2003 about five miles from my home. While some details are sketchy we do know a few things at this point. One of the things I know for sure is that Rob, who was a Carry Permit holder, was shot to death, while unarmed, with his four-year-old daughter standing near him.

We have had many students including men, women, police, military, civilian, American, foreign and every nationality you can imagine. I have had a school since 1996 and quite a few folks have one of my certificates hanging on a wall or lining their birdcage. My students are my extended family, and I tell them that, and they stay in my home quite often. I get a constant flow of e-mails and phone calls from them with a myriad of questions and comments about every imaginable topic. My students are my brothers.

Rob was a "gun guy". He owned many guns, was a reloader, and has some suppressors for several of his guns. He apparently shot often although I had never met him before his class with me and hadn’t seen him since. We corresponded a few times via e-mail as he was applying for his Carry Permit but that was it.

This incident apparently happened because the murderer, a 70-year-old male, thought Rob had shot one of his dogs. This is a big deal in the southern United States. Many people let dogs run wild. Some are vicious, some tear up trash bags and some just walk aimlessly about. The fact is that many dogs run wild and many people don’t like it. Did Rob shoot one of his dogs? Who knows?

The incident essentially occurred like this: Rob went out on the lake with his daughter and two other adults, launching his boat from a public ramp. The murderer apparently waited all day at the ramp for Rob to return. The murderer approached, there was an altercation of sorts, and he fired two rounds from a .44 Magnum Ruger Redhawk and then walked in and did a contact shot to Rob’s head.

Rob, and a friend, took a Tactical Pistol course from us about two years ago. He took the course with a Stainless Para-Ordinance P-14. He was about to apply for his Carry Permit and wanted to get some training. I asked why he was shooting the P-14 instead of his "carry gun". He said he was going to carry the P-14. I expressed my opinions to him that not only are Para pistols too big for daily carry they are not rugged enough. He was content with his decision.

Like with all of our classes we talked about and did a lot of shooting. But our Tactical Pistol class goes into great details about Mindset and Tactics as well. If you Alumni will dig up your handout from my class you will see gunfight rule number one as being “Bring a gun.” Owning a gun doesn’t make you safe. Guns are not Talisman that will ward off evil spirits. To go about daily you must have a gun on your person and a serious attitude that you will be aware of what is going on in your environment.
As an Instructor I must, like all Instructors, unlock my students’ potential and in some cases even change the way they think. Many times the change is profound, even life altering, for some students. I have had students tell me after courses they have made serious life changes like making their personal connection with God, making a Will, buying life insurance and so on. They do this because I tell them you should not be encumbered by these thoughts while fighting for their life.

Firearms Instructors are not unlike motivational speakers. We must motivate and elevate our students to do things they may never do otherwise. One of them is getting them to actually carry their gun everyday. I know that sounds weird because these are students in firearms classes after all. It is true though that many shooters do not carry a gun everyday. There are certainly reasons not too, but I cannot think of one reason that is worth dieing over. Rob would have been carrying illegally. Was that why he wasn’t armed?

I know what the Warrior Spirit is. I know what people who have it look like. I cannot give it to you, you cannot buy it, and without it you are very likely to fail. Without it you are very likely to think carrying your gun is a burden, will get you in trouble, or won’t be needed.

What good is a fireman without water? All of that knowledge and skill goes to waste as the building burns in front of him. Guns are like fire extinguishers. You hope you never need one, but when you do you want the biggest damn fire extinguisher you can pick up.

I have lost sleep over this. I have cried over this. I have gotten angry over this. How do I reach people? How do I motivate them enough to save their own life? What can I do to unlock the Warrior that is locked deeply inside every man?
A good man is dead.
Be alert. Be armed.

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Open carry is normally faster out of the leather (defensive benefit) and makes a statement (political benefit). I have had the need for speed twice - no shots fired. Numerous times my OCing has produced opportunities for positive interaction with those that otherwise would have remained strangers and very, very seldom drawn negative feedback.

As to providing BGs with a means to ID you and eliminate the defensive threat - highly overstated like the "blood in the streets" and "OK Corral" syndrome that the Brady Bunch predicted when shall issue was proposed.

Stand tall either way - it's only a tool.

Yata hey

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A little off topic, but is it just me, or do most of the adament CCers out there tend to ALWAYS bring up the whole element of suprise thing? It would seem to me that they would rather be attacked and get the chance to use their weapon? Maybe they are the ones that are a little trigger happy?

Theses are of course very generalized questions that obviously do not apply to everyone, or even a majority of those who choose to CC exclusively. Hell I CC 80% of the time. I can just appreciate the fact that a crime deterred is much better than a BG getting shot.

We all make the statement that "The last thing we want to do is use our weapons to defend ourselves," but I'm not so sure it's completely true with everyone that says it. See the post about the guy who blasted the two theives who burglarized his neighbors house when the dispatcher gave him clear instructions to stay in his home (can't remember thread title but it's on here somewhere) and you'll see what I mean.

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vmathis12019 wrote:

A little off topic, but is it just me, or do most of the adament CCers out there tend to ALWAYS bring up the whole element of suprise thing? It would seem to me that they would rather be attacked and get the chance to use their weapon? Maybe they are the ones that are a little trigger happy?

Theses are of course very generalized questions that obviously do not apply to everyone, or even a majority of those who choose to CC exclusively. Hell I CC 80% of the time. I can just appreciate the fact that a crime deterred is much better than a BG getting shot.

We all make the statement that "The last thing we want to do is use our weapons to defend ourselves," but I'm not so sure it's completely true with everyone that says it. See the post about the guy who blasted the two theives who burglarized his neighbors house when the dispatcher gave him clear instructions to stay in his home (can't remember thread title but it's on here somewhere) and you'll see what I mean.

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Many adamant CCers frequently refer to the "surprise thing" as well as not wanting to become an early target. When I first started OCing, I felt just like I had a bulls eye painted on my front and back - but then when I first started CCing, I thought everybody was staring at me. Perhaps we are just more used to OCing and have thought out our attitudes more clearly. I carry both ways depending on where I am and how I am dressed and may switch back and forth throughout the day.

"A crime deterred" without the use of physical force is 1000% better for all than the alternative.

No reasonable person "would rather be attacked" but we do tend to verbalize tactics and project ourselves into situations - its good mental conditioning too. "Trigger happy" is a poor choice of words that would fit in the dialog of the anti groups more than here. Those on OCDO that suggest poorly advised responses (even in jest) are set generally straight in short order.

Nothing is "completely true with everyone that says it." That being said I think that if you were to poll the serious writers here that 99.99+% rather avoid a confrontation than escalate one - if given a choice. We tend to take our education, preparedness and skills very seriously.

Re: "...the post about the guy...... two theives(sic)....... clear instructions to stay in his home." This was given as an example of extreme stupidity - a link on a posting - not a statement of endorsement. You cannot take something out of context and imply that is how contributors here think or react. It is not. So in short, I do not see what you mean.

Your post would seem to be more negatively inflammatory than contributing in a positive way. If I am wrong, please set the record straight.

Yata hey

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vmathis12019 wrote:

A little off topic, but is it just me, or do most of the adament CCers out there tend to ALWAYS bring up the whole element of suprise thing? It would seem to me that they would rather be attacked and get the chance to use their weapon? Maybe they are the ones that are a little trigger happy?

Theses are of course very generalized questions that obviously do not apply to everyone, or even a majority of those who choose to CC exclusively. Hell I CC 80% of the time. I can just appreciate the fact that a crime deterred is much better than a BG getting shot.

We all make the statement that "The last thing we want to do is use our weapons to defend ourselves," but I'm not so sure it's completely true with everyone that says it. See the post about the guy who blasted the two theives who burglarized his neighbors house when the dispatcher gave him clear instructions to stay in his home (can't remember thread title but it's on here somewhere) and you'll see what I mean.

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There are inherent problems with carrying in both modes.

OC'ing makes your piece visible to many and in the event something starts to go down, perhaps visible to the BG's. Then there is the retention thing, the argumentative inquistor thing, and the you-can't-come-in-here-like-that thing. What all of this means is that if someone choses to OC, then they should also always be on a little higher plain of awareness since their gun is in full view.

The biggest problem with CC'ing that I can think of is immediate accessability. Getting that weapon out and into action should the need ever arise is likely to take more time than it would if the carrier was OC'ing at the time. This could be the ultimate reason for OC'ing and right up there with the deterent factor that is sure to exist when a BG sees your piece before starting his evil deeds.

I'm quite sure that are some who carry who just hope and pray that they get the chance to use their weapon in defense of themselves and/or others. Perhaps these are the same kinds of folks who go to auto races and hope to see accidents. I would bet all of use play out scenarios in our minds as a way to stay "conditioned" and aware and I see that as a good thing. Playing "what if" games can save your life if the real thing ever takes place. That is not the same thing as wishing for something to happen.

I would bet most here tend to avoid going places where criminal activity is known to be high. After all, there is always that very real possibility that we will be the ones to lose in a confrontation.

I guess in closing, I still find it strange to see gun people at each other's throats over something like OC'ing vs CC'ing when we're all in this together.

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SouthernBoy wrote:

I'm quite sure that are some who carry who just hope and pray that they get the chance to use their weapon in defense of themselves and/or others.

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SouthernBoy wrote:

I guess in closing, I still find it strange to see gun people at each other's throats over something like OC'ing vs CC'ing when we're all in this together.

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I agree that we are all in this together but it doesn't surprise me that those on the fringes oftheOC and CC camps to fight each other. They see it, simplistically and erroneously,as a zero-sum game.

There are no strategic or even practical reasons to have the OCers set off against the CCers.

Makes no sense at all--except to the dullards and extremists...

There is only one RTKBA.

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HankT wrote

SouthernBoy wrote:

I guess in closing, I still find it strange to see gun people at each other's throats over something like OC'ing vs CC'ing when we're all in this together.

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I agree that we are all in this together but it doesn't surprise me that those on the fringes oftheOC and CC camps to fight each other. They see it, simplistically and erroneously,as a zero-sum game.

There are no strategic or even practical reasons to have the OCers set off against the CCers.

Makes no sense at all--except to the dullards and extremists...

There is only one RTKBA.

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I hate it when I agree with HankT !

Yata hey

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Well, I usually carry one of each (one open, one concealed), so I have all the bases covered.

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Grapeshot wrote:

Your post would seem to be more negatively inflammatory than contributing in a positive way. If I am wrong, please set the record straight.

Yata hey

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I certainly didn't mean for it to come accross that way and I did include in my post that I was making extrememly (even inappropriately) generalizations. My point was that there are those people out there that really are just walking around with an itchy trigger finger. I most certainly not implying that this is the case with the contributors here, nor is it the norm for people who carry at all.

My point was, that I have come across people who are so strongly opposed to open carry, their only argument against it being the tactical advantage of the "surprise attack" situation, that it makes me wonder if there are some out there who really do have a desire to use their weapons in a self defense scenario.

Again, my original post was most certainly not aimed at anyone in particular, but was idle musing on my part when I read the gentleman's post about the "element of surprise" and posted it to see if anyone else here had ever considered the same thing. Apparently (due to Southernboy's quote in Hank's post) this may have already been discussed on here before.

My intent was not to "flame" Hondov65 or anyone else on this forum that chooses CC over OC. As many of you know, I have been forced by overzealous law enforcement to convert back to CC for the majority of my daily carry, and certainly don't classify myself as "trigger happy."

In closing, I suppose my statement was an observation on the fact that there are many out there who are so vehemently opposed to OC that they refuse to hear or consider any of its advantages. As a student of socio-psychology and violence, I am always curious when people refuse to hear reasonable arguments when it comes to something like this, and I was merely raising the point for discussion's sake.

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I also carry both ways. Usually CC because of local ordinances, but sometimes, even when in OC areas, I still CC for various reasons. Both have their benefits and hinderances.

I have some friends who are hardcore CCers who espouse the "surprise" rationale. I typically point out that per crime stats, even those touted by the pro-gun side, more often a handgun prevents a crime by it's presence than by being discharged. That is a clear nod to the benefits of OC. Most criminals are animals of opportunity and are not looking to get shot up over $20. They want a quick, simple score and if you are a bad target they will look elsewhere. A pistol on your hip and an obvious vigilance to your surroundings make you a bad target to any but the most desperate or most hardcore criminal element. Given that in most areas the criminals of opportunity are the predominate type I think that OC is the better deterent. There are places where OC is simply a provocation for certain criminal elements though so CC is a better choice there. I think both methods of carry are important in a free society for self-defense.

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Why is "because that's how I like to carry" never an acceptable answer?

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Pa. Patriot wrote:

1) Do a search. Like you noticed, you ARE on an OPEN CARRY site.

2)Couple key replies to your post.
The "element of surprise" is entirely over-rated. You sure your going to be able to get to your gun?
It also completely discounts the deterrant factor of open carry. The vast majority of criminals will shop elsewhere when they realize there are hard targets in the area.

If the crime/criminal is deterred there is no "suprise" (that you may not be able to get to before your DEAD) needed.

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You are right about being able to get to your gun quickly. In the summer its not an issue but in the winter its a real pain.