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Now i get it

massltca

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danbus wrote:
Hondov65 wrote:
Intersting replies I am also on Defensivecarry.com, and the M&P Board where the majority of the members Carry Concealed. I'll be chiming in from time to time. until next time be safe.

I'm not 100% sure, butis it true thatmajority who CC are inclined to think that OC is something reserved for asshats and assclowns?

It's been my experience reading that mostCCers tend to be closed minded on OC, however manyOCers have an open mind on both OC and CC.
When I started carrying concealed I didn't even know about OC or know anyone still did it. But I'm an open minded guy so it was a non issue and I never considered it foolish or ill advised. Frankly I don't understand why CCers would think that, you either support freedom or you don't.
 

Grapeshot

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vmathis12019 wrote:
...........My point was that there are those people out there that really are just walking around with an itchy trigger finger.

..............and I was merely raising the point for discussion's sake.
It has been my professional and personal observation that there are very few "people out there that really are just walking around with an itchy trigger finger." Have you truly ever meet one? Those deviants from the socially accepted norm will generally find themselves incarcerated or institutionalized were they to act upon these thoughts - they are the exception.

Raising the point for the sake of discussion has its merits, if your target audience is well versed or trained in the psychological motivations and theories of aberrant behavior. Few on this forum are so equipped. You on the other hand indicate that you are a "student of socio-psychology and violence." What accreditation have you earned and in what discipline? Perhaps you intended to indicate that you were a student of life and wondered what makes people tick. Please enlighten me.

My question as to your motivation stems from your use/selection of terminology i.e. itchy trigger finger, trigger happy, blasted two thieves and many out there who are so vehemently opposed to OC, that would most frequently indicate a negative bias towards the principles espoused by a majority of the participants on OCDO. Using a link (not a posters opinion) that demonstrated criminal stupidity to challenge that "the last thing we want to do is use our weapons to defend ourselves" is, sir, a called fowl - a low blow. It is indeed the last thing we wish to do but, sir, we do wish to come home safely.

Please tell me that you are not on a fishing expedition to exploit a hasty or ill thought out response from this site.

If I mistake your intentions and you do sincerely support the standard that we bear, then I suggest that you consider the force of your words more carefully and not misquote or use derisive terms - be objective and contribute positively. By our words and deeds, we shall be judged.

Yata hey
 

vmathis12019

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Grapeshot wrote:
vmathis12019 wrote:
...........My point was that there are those people out there that really are just walking around with an itchy trigger finger.

..............and I was merely raising the point for discussion's sake.
It has been my professional and personal observation that there are very few "people out there that really are just walking around with an itchy trigger finger." Have you truly ever meet one? Those deviants from the socially accepted norm will generally find themselves incarcerated or institutionalized were they to act upon these thoughts - they are the exception.

Raising the point for the sake of discussion has its merits, if your target audience is well versed or trained in the psychological motivations and theories of aberrant behavior. Few on this forum are so equipped. You on the other hand indicate that you are a "student of socio-psychology and violence." What accreditation have you earned and in what discipline? Perhaps you intended to indicate that you were a student of life and wondered what makes people tick. Please enlighten me.

My question as to your motivation stems from your use/selection of terminology i.e. itchy trigger finger, trigger happy, blasted two thieves and many out there who are so vehemently opposed to OC, that would most frequently indicate a negative bias towards the principles espoused by a majority of the participants on OCDO. Using a link (not a posters opinion) that demonstrated criminal stupidity to challenge that "the last thing we want to do is use our weapons to defend ourselves" is, sir, a called fowl - a low blow. It is indeed the last thing we wish to do but, sir, we do wish to come home safely.

Please tell me that you are not on a fishing expedition to exploit a hasty or ill thought out response from this site.

If I mistake your intentions and you do sincerely support the standard that we bear, then I suggest that you consider the force of your words more carefully and not misquote or use derisive terms - be objective and contribute positively. By our words and deeds, we shall be judged.

Yata hey

Okay, I will address these in the order you presented them. First even you admit with your statement that "there are very few 'people out there with an itchy trigger finger'" that there are indeed individuals who really do exist that relish in the thought of using their firearms in a self defense situation, however few in numbers they may be. You ask have I ever met anyone like this? Yes, I have met these people. I live in the South, and can assure you that there are people here who I think seriously like the idea of shooting someone. Is this a regional oddity? I don't know. But people, like the individual in the story about the killing of the two burglars, DO EXIST, and my intent in the original post was to discover whether anyone else has had any experience with people that they perceived as being a tad overzealous in the idea of using lethal force.

I indicated that I am a STUDENT. That is exactly what I meant. I attend a reputable University in Alabama and major in International Relations minoring in psychology. The study of politics, is in fact the study of power exhibited through many outlets, but inevitably through violence. I am well equipped to both discuss and examine the motivations behind those who act violently (though I admit that my main focus in my studies of violence and psychology have been aimed at a better understanding of political violence and terrorism). I was simply curious enough to present these statements in hope of a response in agreement or disagreement. You sir, have done nothing but attack my vocabulary.

I exhibited no negative bias to anything presented by anyone participating in this forum. In fact, I thought it was clear in my original post in this thread that I wasraising "very generalized questions that obviously do not apply to everyone, or even a majority of those who choose to CC exclusively."The existence, however, of people who think in the way I presented cannot be disproven. Something I think you are reading from my posts that simply isn't there is that I am implying that there are individuals HERE on OCDO that behave or think in the manner that I have presented. This is certainly not the case. Again, I cannot stress enough that my original intent was to discuss those who are on the very fringes of the "armed community," and in no wayamimplying that the members here believe in the ideas that Ipresented.

My choice of words was a rhetorical device to convey the severity of the consequences such individuals could have on our cause. People out there that are "trigger happy" are just that; they are trigger happy. Are any of us here members of that sub-category? I should hope not. But these are the people that pose the most danger to us, and an attempt to discuss the motivations of these individuals, I think, was an appropriate endeavor that has been successfully thwarted by your efforts to pick apart my statements and discredit my motivations.

I personally believe in the right of self defense and the right to keep and bear arms. I practice my right to carry a weapon everyday, and understand fully the responsibilities and possible consequences of my actions with my sidearm. Moreso than an attack on the idea of using lethal force, my statements were an attack on the closed-mindedness of a large number of individuals that I have encountered on my open carry endeavors.

To avoid this thread being hijacked any longer, if you wish to correspond with me regarding this any further, do it through PMs. As far as I'm concerned, my motivations and intentions could not be made any more clear than they are in this post, and I will consider any continued prodding a "fishing expedition to exploit a hasty or ill thought out response."
 

Grapeshot

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vmathis12019 wrote:
I was merely raising the point for discussion's sake.
&
I was simply curious enough to present these statements in hope of a response in agreement or disagreement

If you are not willing to hear the answer, don't ask the question.

Thanks for your interest in preserving the 2nd Amendment. Good luck with your studies.

-finis-

Yata hey
 

Pa. Patriot

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massltca wrote:
You are right about being able to get to your gun quickly. In the summer its not an issue but in the winter its a real pain.

Yup, even the thought of "deep concealment" gives me chills.... Might as well learn martial arts as it will be more useful in the real world than a "deeply concealed" gun. Winter means more cover and slower response time.

ETA: edited because it's amazing how bad my spelling gets every Friday night.. ;):uhoh::celebrate:celebrate
 

SouthernBoy

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vmathis12019 wrote:
Grapeshot wrote:
vmathis12019 wrote:
...........My point was that there are those people out there that really are just walking around with an itchy trigger finger.

..............and I was merely raising the point for discussion's sake.
It has been my professional and personal observation that there are very few "people out there that really are just walking around with an itchy trigger finger." Have you truly ever meet one? Those deviants from the socially accepted norm will generally find themselves incarcerated or institutionalized were they to act upon these thoughts - they are the exception.

Raising the point for the sake of discussion has its merits, if your target audience is well versed or trained in the psychological motivations and theories of aberrant behavior. Few on this forum are so equipped. You on the other hand indicate that you are a "student of socio-psychology and violence." What accreditation have you earned and in what discipline? Perhaps you intended to indicate that you were a student of life and wondered what makes people tick. Please enlighten me.

My question as to your motivation stems from your use/selection of terminology i.e. itchy trigger finger, trigger happy, blasted two thieves and many out there who are so vehemently opposed to OC, that would most frequently indicate a negative bias towards the principles espoused by a majority of the participants on OCDO. Using a link (not a posters opinion) that demonstrated criminal stupidity to challenge that "the last thing we want to do is use our weapons to defend ourselves" is, sir, a called fowl - a low blow. It is indeed the last thing we wish to do but, sir, we do wish to come home safely.

Please tell me that you are not on a fishing expedition to exploit a hasty or ill thought out response from this site.

If I mistake your intentions and you do sincerely support the standard that we bear, then I suggest that you consider the force of your words more carefully and not misquote or use derisive terms - be objective and contribute positively. By our words and deeds, we shall be judged.

Yata hey

I live in the South, and can assure you that there are people here who I think seriously like the idea of shooting someone. Is this a regional oddity? I don't know.
I find this part of your response somewhat disingenuous. I have live in the South my entire life and have long roots in Virginia as does my wife. I would bet that if you were to examine New York City or Detriot or California, you would find people there who meet the mold in your above statement. In fact, you may find more of it in some of those other places than in the South simply because of the hotbet of "diversity" seen there: EX. California and La Raza.

Sorry, but I just could not let this one pass without comment.
 

Grapeshot

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There are those that earn the title of troll.
"Is this a regional oddity?" we are asked. Pleeeeze! Spare me.

Alabama laws would seem to set up some circumstances wherein this poster's remarks are at best inconsistant and misleading: college student carrrying everyday, carries 80% of the time and must OC because of age and is an expert on what is wrong and carries in a vehicle in spite of the fact that Alabama laws would seem to prohibit that for him. What am I missing here?

Yata hey
 

vmathis12019

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You are missing the fact that in the state of Alabama, Concealed Carry licenses are issued in most counties at age 18 (it is left up to the discretion of the issuing sheriff). I have had a valid CCW permit for going on nearly 2 years now, and am perfectly legal in my method of carry. Perhaps a little more research on your part would have informed you of that before you accused me of breaking the law.

The laws about carrying on campus in Alabama are also very clear. It is prohibited on K-12 schools only, and those with CHPs as well as LEOs are exempt from this prohibition. Alabama, like most states, does not expressly prohibit carrying on a college campus, but leaves it up to the University to employ their own rules regarding it. As in every state but Utah, I would say that probably all Universities ban carrying weapons. This is not a violation of law, but a violation of school policy which could result in being expelled at most. No legal action can be taken against you. That said, I choose to follow my school's rules when I'm on campus, as I would very much like to not be expelled. I also never stated that I was "forced to OC because of my age." I stated very clearly that the majority of the time I carry concealed.

I take offense to your comment about "trolling." Your behavior is becoming increasingly provocative in this thread, and I am beginning to wonder whether or not you have some prejudice toward me for whatever reason. I have been very clear that my comments were not aimed at anyone here, or that the number of people that fall into the category that I described is more than negligible.

To Southernboy: I too have lived in the deep south my entire life. I was born and raised 20 miles north of the Florida line, and only recently moved 60 miles north of my hometown. My point was not that ALL southerners were crazy rednecks with shotguns, but these people do in fact exist, and I have encountered some of them. My original post was made with the intent to discover if anyone else has encountered people like this. You say that if I were to examine more urbanareas, I would findmore people with the "trigger happy" mindset that I presented. This very well may be the case, but as I have hadNO experience inany of these areas, I amnot qualified to comment on it, onlywhat I have come into contact with.
 

Pa. Patriot

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Hondov65 wrote:
Intersting replies I am also on Defensivecarry.com,

Ah, yes. Defensivecarry.com
Where any discussion about OC is BANNED. Because the OC only bigots over there simpl can't discuss the issue without flaming and being rude towards anyone who OC's. They then blame it on the OC'er for "pushing his view" (projection disorder?)
 

Grapeshot

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vmathis12019 wrote:
You are missing the fact that in the state of Alabama, Concealed Carry licenses ...........etc
Very pleased to find out what I was missing. Alabama just earned a big + from me for issuing permits to those 18 years of age - hopefully one day it shall be a "shall issue" state with full preemption.

Never accused you of breaking the law - what I said was seemed to prohibit.....what am I missing here? Intended as a valid question.

If I understand your post correctly, holders of CHPs may carry in Alabama K-12 schools! If this is indeed the case, I'm impressed. So it should be everywhere. Do you have a link to a statute confirming this?

I understand a violation of school policy resulting in expulsion - it's much the same in Va. universities. Virginia Commonwealth University even has a special/elite status law on the books wherein no one other than LEOs may carry on their property.

Troll (verb intransitive) to fish with a baited line trailed behind and in our vernacular here it means much the same - to bait someone with pointless questions or scenarios without merit et al. In your words, "I have been very clear that my comments were not aimed at anyone here, or that the number of people that fall into the category that I described is more than negligible." Did you mean and that the number of people that fall into the category that you described are not more than negligible? The former ( more than negligible) would imply a meaningful number whereas the latter a number that was so small as to be meaningless. If a meaningful number, how large? If in fact the number is negligible/meaningless, then what were you doing if not trolling?

I sincerely do not intend to be insulting to you. I commend you on taking a pro active position and on being responsible for your own safety. Still I do object to some terminology that you use so freely that would seem to come from the playbook of the other side. If there are so many itchy trigger fingers, trigger happy mentalities and as you assure us "there are people here who I think seriously like the idea of shooting someone." - why isn't there blood in the streets? Do you not see what I mean? You raise questions and make statements like a MMM member sometimes.

I support your right to speak your mind in any way that you see fit. Support my desire to see more polish and benefit to our cause.

Yate hey
 

vmathis12019

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Grapeshot wrote:
vmathis12019 wrote:
You are missing the fact that in the state of Alabama, Concealed Carry licenses ...........etc


If I understand your post correctly, holders of CHPs may carry in Alabama K-12 schools! If this is indeed the case, I'm impressed. So it should be everywhere. Do you have a link to a statute confirming this?


Section 13A-11-72
Certain persons forbidden to possess pistol.
(a) No person who has been convicted in this state or elsewhere of committing or attempting to commit a crime of violence shall own a pistol or have one in his or her possession or under his or her control.

(b) No person who is a drug addict or an habitual drunkard shall own a pistol or have one in his or her possession or under his or her control.

(c) Subject to the exceptions provided by Section 13A-11-74, no person shall knowingly with intent to do bodily harm carry or possess a deadly weapon on the premises of a public school.

(d) Possession of a deadly weapon with the intent to do bodily harm on the premises of a public school in violation of subsection (c) of this section is a Class C felony.

(e) Law enforcement officers are exempt from this section, and persons with pistol permits issued pursuant to Section 13A-11-75, are exempt from the provisions of subsection (c) of this section.

(f) The term "public school" as used in this section applies only to a school composed of grades K-12 and shall include a school bus used for grades K-12.

(g) The term "deadly weapon" as used in this section means a firearm or anything manifestly designed, made, or adapted for the purposes of inflicting death or serious physical injury, and such term includes, but is not limited to, a bazooka, hand grenade, missile, or explosive or incendiary device; a pistol, rifle, or shotgun; or a switch-blade knife, gravity knife, stiletto, sword, or dagger; or any club, baton, billy, black-jack, bludgeon, or metal knuckles

http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/13A-11-72.htm

Obviously, not all of this statue directly applies to your question, but this is the statue where it can be found.

On your question about what I meant when I used the word "negligible." After re-reading it, I realize my syntax was a little off there. I meant that the number of people I was describing was NOT more than negligible.However,

Main Entry:
neg·li·gi·ble
:so small or unimportant or of so little consequence as to warrant little or no attention
It would seem that perhaps the word negligible does not necessarily mean meaningless, just very small. It could take only one person, like the individual in the mentioned post about the fellow with the shotgun (killed the two guys, etc...), however, to do something stupid enough to really hurt our cause. While I believe that the number is in fact rather small, I still assert that these people exist, and could be dangerous to our cause. This warranted the "little attention" I paid it by inquiring as to whether anyone else had come into contact with such individuals.

Anyone who actively uses a forum would immediately confirm that the term "trolling" is extremely pejorative and insulting to an individual who is sincerely contributing and seeking information. That is why I took offense to your use of the word, as my intentions, though not necessarily known to you, were not to "fish" for a hasty, ill thought out reply. I was sincerely seeking information, and my choice of vocabulary, as I stated above, was merely a tool I used in a way I saw necessary to relay the seriousness of the situation.





*edited for spelling*


 

Grapeshot

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vmathis12019 wrote:
Grapeshot wrote:
If I understand your post correctly, holders of CHPs may carry in Alabama K-12 schools! If this is indeed the case, I'm impressed. So it should be everywhere. Do you have a link to a statute confirming this?
Section 13A-11-72

(c) Subject to the exceptions provided by Section 13A-11-74, no person shall knowingly with intent to do bodily harm carry or possess a deadly weapon on the premises of a public school.

(e) Law enforcement officers are exempt from this section, and persons with pistol permits issued pursuant to Section 13A-11-75, are exempt from the provisions of subsection (c) of this section.
I appreciate the information and link. This would appear to be a much better position than is enjoyed by most other states.

My remarks were disparaging and not innocently so - as umbrage was taken at the perceived tone and your choice of emotional slang often preferred by the Brady Bunch. Might I suggest instead of itchy trigger fingers - too quick to react or wannabes or anything else that shows our disdain for their lack of common sense yet leaves us with our morality intact. There are those that fail to comprehend that the tool we carry is a last resort within very narrow confines- not the first one for which we mentally reach.

Whether we OC or CC we must do so responsibly/intelligently and I admit my tolerance threshold for those that would play the fool is not high.

Your passion for our rights and freedoms is acknowledged.

Yata hey
 

mzbk2l

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Grapeshot, I wouldn't disagree with his initial choice of words. I honestly believe there are people out there who would relish the chance to use their gun.

Remember the original "Highlander" movie? The guy in the red Trans Am comes to mind.... (I loved that car!)
 

Grapeshot

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mzbk2l wrote:
Grapeshot, I wouldn't disagree with his initial choice of words. I honestly believe there are people out there who would relish the chance to use their gun.

Remember the original "Highlander" movie? The guy in the red Trans Am comes to mind.... (I loved that car!)
There will always be people on the extremes. We can categorize them as criminals, deviants, has a screw loose, stupid, unenlightened, ill advised, bullies or any similar tag that fits. They are I believe in the extreme minority. We all know that as a group CHP holders are very law abiding. Similar data is not available for Ocers although we have well founded opinions for coming to like conclusions.

My primary reaction was in response to negatively worded and couched questions and the way such can lead us into a blind alley. Example: Do you know anybody with a hair trigger personality (much less someone that wants to shoot somebody) that carries? If I simply respond, "Oh yeah, several" then I and my remarks inadvertently or carelessly become fodder for those groups from the other side. Further, do I not owe it to someone to try and temper/educate the ill informed or even (gasp) report a dangerous about to "go off" person?

We walk a tight rope between "I should not have to explain why I carry to anybody" and working to protect/improve our god given right to self-defense in today’s environment. Our audience is more than the choir to whom we preach.

I understand the point intended from both you and vmathis12019 and respect it.
We are at peace with each other, I believe. I have learned a few things from him and would hope that maybe he picked up a grain or two from me.

It was a lively discussion though wasn't it. :D

Yata hey
 

WhiteRabbit22

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vmathis12019 wrote:
(c) Subject to the exceptions provided by Section 13A-11-74, no person shall knowingly with intent to do bodily harm carry or possess a deadly weapon on the premises of a public school.



So if I don't have "intent to do bodily harm" then I can carry on the premises of a public school, right? That's what it says.
 

vmathis12019

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WhiteRabbit22 wrote:
vmathis12019 wrote:
(c) Subject to the exceptions provided by Section 13A-11-74, no person shall knowingly with intent to do bodily harm carry or possess a deadly weapon on the premises of a public school.



So if I don't have "intent to do bodily harm" then I can carry on the premises of a public school, right? That's what it says.
So it would seem WhiteRabbit22. Obviously, this is only applicable in Alabama.
 
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