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Thread: Email from Intercity Transit

  1. #1
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    I just got an email from Mike Harbour, director of IT regarding transport of guns and ammo on InterCity Transit bus'. Their lawyers conceded legal CC, transport of cased longarms, and legal ammo transport. They then fell back on the "warrants alarm" BS regarding OC. Mr. Harbour had not even read the transcript of the OPD training directive, nor had referenced it to the lawyers it seems.

    I called Mr. Harbour a minute ago and clarified the situation a bit. I emphasized that OC was legal, that a person must be engaged in conduct other than mere OC in order to "warrant alarm", etc... I again referenced the OPD training directive, told him who drafted it, where he could see a transcribed copy on OCDO, gave him the link on OCDO for other local training bulletins, etc...

    From my phone call, I believe he understands OC is legal, it is a matter of getting it trickled down to supervisors and operators. I am going to hold out for him to state in writing that they will not give me grief with OC.

    Below is all corresponce with IT, my most recent reply at the top...

    Thank you for your reply. This is the link I was trying to locate while on the phone with you...

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/5745.html

    Also, as I mentioned, Lt. Bill Wilson with the OPD drafted this document, and I also have a hard copy I can make available to you.

    This link will give you PDF copies of currently available training bulletins from other police agencies

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/5335.html

    Please note that Washington State has complete pre-emption of firearms laws and rules (excepting where it is legal to discharge) and possession/transport laws must be and are consistent across the state.

    Thank you for your time, I hope that myself or others will not have any problems transporting arms and ammunition in any legal manner.



    Steve Coffman

    Mike Harbour <MHarbour@intercitytransit.com> wrote:




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    Our legal counsel has reviewed your questions and I will try to explain our policy – I will also post this for our Operators and Supervisors.



    Our policy is stated in our Rules of Conduct as follows:



    Carrying, exhibiting, displaying, or drawing any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons, unless otherwise authorized by law (RCW 9.41.270);



    The key part of this sentence is “warrants alarm for the safety of other persons”. Thus, our rules prohibit anyone from carrying a firearm on the bus in a way that would make other passengers nervous or fearful.



    Your concealed weapons permit allows you to carry a concealed weapon. Our legal counsel’s opinion is that this does not grant you any additional right to carry a weapon openly. If you carried a firearm in a manner that “manifests an intent to intimidate another or warrants alarm for the safety of other persons”, you would be subject to our Rules of Conduct.



    You should be able to bring a cased longarm on the bus without a problem.



    I will have a clarification of our policy posted for all Operators and Supervisors as soon as possible. I am copying Jim Merrill, our Director of Operations, on this reply



    Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns regarding this.



    Mike Harbour

    General Manager




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    From: Steve [mailto:sv_libertarian@yahoo.com]
    Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 1:37 PM
    To: Mike Harbour
    Subject: RE: lawful transport of firearms/ammo on buses


    [size=][/size]

    [size=Thank you. I appreciate your reply and your willingness to discuss the matter. Can I presume that currently under RCW 9.91.025 should I bring a cased longarm on board the bus that I would not have any problems?

    Thanks,
    Steve

    Mike]
    Harbour <MHarbour@intercitytransit.com> wrote:[/size]



    Thank you for your e-mail. I will have our legal counsel review this and we will put together appropriate direction for our Operators. I will contact you with this information to see if you agree with our interpretation.


    I appreciate you raising this issue – I do not believe it has come up before.


    It may be approximately two weeks before I have information for you but will try to contact you sooner than this.


    Please call me at 705-5855 if you have any questions.





    Mike Harbour


    General Manager





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    From: Steve [mailto:sv_libertarian@yahoo.com]
    Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 9:37 PM
    To: Mike Harbour
    Subject: lawful transport of firearms/ammo on buses



    [size=][/size]


    [size=Hi!

    I am writing you because I have some concerns with the knowledge transit operators have concerning the lawful transport of guns/ammo on buses.

    As we both know, RCW 9.91.025 states in part "...except that nothing herein prevents a person from carrying a cigarette, cigar, or pipe lighter or carrying a firearm or ammunition in a way that is not otherwise prohibited by law"

    I have had several operators tell me that ammunition is prohibited on the bus, and some also tell me that an unloaded, cased longarm (rifle, shotgun) is also prohibited.

    I also have a valid concealed weapons permit. This means that I can of course carry a loaded, concealed handgun on my person on the bus. What is not common knowledge is that a person with a concealed weapons permit may carry their handgun openly]
    which is to say, not concealed in a vehicle. The requirement for a concealed weapons permit to carry a loaded handgun in any self propelled vehicle does not require that the handgun be concealed. I have a training directive issued by the Olympia Police Department which details the laws regarding lawful open carry. A transcribed copy may be viewed at http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/5745.html

    I would like your assurance that your operators understand the lawful ways in which a person may carry a firearm or ammunition on public transit, bus stops, etc... In my case I have been fingerprinted and subject to an FBI background check in order to receive a concealed weapons permit. I trust that my rights will not be violated and be respected. I can be reached at (360) 451-9710 if you would like to discuss this further.

    Thank you for your time.

    Steve Coffman[/size]

  2. #2
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    The key part of this sentence is “warrants alarm for the safety of other persons”. Thus, our rules prohibit anyone from carrying a firearm on the bus in a way that would make other passengers nervous or fearful.
    Does their policy allow them to exclude people based on race using that same logic? After all, some people get nervous around people of a different race. If there are several homophobes on the bus, and they express fear of a gay man or woman, will the gays have to walk?

    It sounds like they really don't know what they're talking about. I doubt a lawyer could have written this, 'warrants alarm for the safety of' does not equal 'nervous or fearful' by any stretch of the imagination. I would think someone with even a modicum of legal training would understand that.

  3. #3
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    This part is interesting too...
    "Your concealed weapons permit allows you to carry a concealed weapon. Our legal counusel’s opinion is that this does not grant you any additional right to carry a weapon openly. If you carried a firearm in a manner that “manifests an intent to intimidate another or warrants alarm for the safety of other persons”, you would be subject to our Rules of Conduct. "

    First off a CCP does not "grant rights" and second of course, with a CCP, I can carry how ever I please in a vehicle. I forgot to specifically address that, but can easily do so if IT keeps waffling on this issue.

    I agree Mainsail, anyone with any legal training should know better. I find it interesting that they didn't even bother with the OPD training directive.

    Oh well, if this goes on and something weird happens
    I'm sure they carry insurance. I can use the money for a new boat:P

  4. #4
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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    ... Our legal counsel’s opinion is that this does not grant you any additional right to carry a weapon openly.
    Wow, that's some incompetent legal council.... I hope they don't pay them for that "advice".
    Public skool high honor students for sure!

    Let's see...
    1) OC is permitted/right WITHOUT a permit.
    2) The "permit" doesn't remove that right...

    Would it be possible to be any MORE wrong ?




  5. #5
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    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    sv_libertarian wrote:
    ... Our legal counsel’s opinion is that this does not grant you any additional right to carry a weapon openly.
    Wow, that's some incompetent legal council.... I hope they don't pay them for that "advice".
    Public skool high honor students for sure!

    Let's see...
    1) OC is permitted/right WITHOUT a permit.
    2) The "permit" doesn't remove that right...

    Would it be possible to be any MORE wrong ?


    I once had a company try to con me out of some money. I spoke to my boss about it and then wrote them a letter in which I referenced his advice as my "Legal Counsel". :P If it was really from an attorney, the attorney would have written it - and charged accordingly. :what:

    LoveMyCountry

  6. #6
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Our legal counsel’s opinion is that this does not grant you any additional right to carry a weapon openly.


    Perhaps their "Counsel" needs to read the Washington State Constitution. The CPL allows concealed carry and carry on a Motor Vehicle (loaded). The Constitution assures our right to carry ----- Period!
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  7. #7
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    You out-of-state guys should be aware that in WA it's not legal to carry a loaded handgun in or on any kind of vehicle, regardless of concealed/open status, unless you have a CPL. Therefore, Pa Patriot's statement is incorrect: having a CPL does indeed grant us poor WA residents additional rights.


  8. #8
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    kparker wrote:
    You out-of-state guys should be aware that in WA it's not legal to carry a loaded handgun in or on any kind of vehicle, regardless of concealed/open status, unless you have a CPL. Therefore, Pa Patriot's statement is incorrect: having a CPL does indeed grant us poor WA residents additional rights.
    Priviliges are granted, rights exist. Whether other parties, private or public, recognize a right is a different matter.

  9. #9
    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    I thought Lonnie had put these schmucks in their place already?...
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
    KF7GEA

  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Not intercity transit. They just failed to respond.


  11. #11
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    kparker wrote:
    ... Therefore, Pa Patriot's statement is incorrect: having a CPL does indeed grant us poor WA residents additional rights.
    Nope, my statement is correct. I didn't say it did not permit additional carry methods. I said it didn't take any away.

    1) OC is permitted/right WITHOUT a permit. (exceptions such as vehicle carry are not part of this example as it is not relevent to te point, IE:#2, below)
    2) The "permit" doesn't remove that right... (even though you need a permit to OC in a vehicle the permit does not remove the ability to OC.)

    We have the same vehicle=concealed nonsense here in PA too. Again, not part of the point I was making.


  12. #12
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    Lonnie Wilson wrote:
    Not intercity transit. They just failed to respond.
    Harbour sounded like he really didn't want to talk with me either when I called him to set him straight on OC.

    I told him I wanted to set the record straight, because I may OC someday, or just simply be bending over to lift a seat for a passenger in a wheelchair and expose my weapon when my coat falls back.

    I am giving him until Monday to respond again about OC, otherwise I will contact him again.

    I also want to see whatever communication that went out to the drivers and supervisors regarding transport of arms and ammo. So far he is only accepting CC, and cased unloaded long arms. At any rate the code of conduct needs to be updated.

    Once I establish once and for all the legality of OC on the bus, I think I will take a LONG bus ride OCing :celebrate

  13. #13
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    Once I establish once and for all the legality of OC on the bus, I think I will take a LONG bus ride OCing
    I know. We can have an OC gathering on a BUS! :celebrate:celebrate:what:

  14. #14
    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    gregma wrote:
    Once I establish once and for all the legality of OC on the bus, I think I will take a LONG bus ride OCing
    I know. We can have an OC gathering on a BUS! :celebrate:celebrate:what:
    Just as long as it's not "The Party Bus", since I would imagine the liquor control board would consider it prohibited to minors. *chuckle*
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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