sv_libertarian
State Researcher
imported post
I just got an email from Mike Harbour, director of IT regarding transport of guns and ammo on InterCity Transit bus'. Their lawyers conceded legal CC, transport of cased longarms, and legal ammo transport. They then fell back on the "warrants alarm" BS regarding OC. Mr. Harbour had not even read the transcript of the OPD training directive, nor had referenced it to the lawyers it seems.
I called Mr. Harbour a minute ago and clarified the situation a bit. I emphasized that OC was legal, that a person must be engaged in conduct other than mere OC in order to "warrant alarm", etc... I again referenced the OPD training directive, told him who drafted it, where he could see a transcribed copy on OCDO, gave him the link on OCDO for other local training bulletins, etc...
From my phone call, I believe he understands OC is legal, it is a matter of getting it trickled down to supervisors and operators. I am going to hold out for him to state in writing that they will not give me grief with OC.
Below is all corresponce with IT, my most recent reply at the top...
Thank you for your reply. This is the link I was trying to locate while on the phone with you...
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/5745.html
Also, as I mentioned, Lt. Bill Wilson with the OPD drafted this document, and I also have a hard copy I can make available to you.
This link will give you PDF copies of currently available training bulletins from other police agencies
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/5335.html
Please note that Washington State has complete pre-emption of firearms laws and rules (excepting where it is legal to discharge) and possession/transport laws must be and are consistent across the state.
Thank you for your time, I hope that myself or others will not have any problems transporting arms and ammunition in any legal manner.
Steve Coffman
Mike Harbour <MHarbour@intercitytransit.com> wrote:
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Our legal counsel has reviewed your questions and I will try to explain our policy – I will also post this for our Operators and Supervisors.
Our policy is stated in our Rules of Conduct as follows:
Carrying, exhibiting, displaying, or drawing any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons, unless otherwise authorized by law (RCW 9.41.270);
The key part of this sentence is “warrants alarm for the safety of other persons”. Thus, our rules prohibit anyone from carrying a firearm on the bus in a way that would make other passengers nervous or fearful.
Your concealed weapons permit allows you to carry a concealed weapon. Our legal counsel’s opinion is that this does not grant you any additional right to carry a weapon openly. If you carried a firearm in a manner that “manifests an intent to intimidate another or warrants alarm for the safety of other persons”, you would be subject to our Rules of Conduct.
You should be able to bring a cased longarm on the bus without a problem.
I will have a clarification of our policy posted for all Operators and Supervisors as soon as possible. I am copying Jim Merrill, our Director of Operations, on this reply
Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns regarding this.
Mike Harbour
General Manager
[align=center][size=
][/size][/align]
From: Steve [mailto:sv_libertarian@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 1:37 PM
To: Mike Harbour
Subject: RE: lawful transport of firearms/ammo on buses
[size=][/size]
[size=Thank you. I appreciate your reply and your willingness to discuss the matter. Can I presume that currently under RCW 9.91.025 should I bring a cased longarm on board the bus that I would not have any problems?
Thanks,
Steve
[b]Mike][/b] Harbour <MHarbour@intercitytransit.com> wrote:[/size]
Thank you for your e-mail. I will have our legal counsel review this and we will put together appropriate direction for our Operators. I will contact you with this information to see if you agree with our interpretation.
I appreciate you raising this issue – I do not believe it has come up before.
It may be approximately two weeks before I have information for you but will try to contact you sooner than this.
Please call me at 705-5855 if you have any questions.
Mike Harbour
General Manager
[align=center][size=
][/size][/align]
From: Steve [mailto:sv_libertarian@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 9:37 PM
To: Mike Harbour
Subject: lawful transport of firearms/ammo on buses
[size=][/size]
[size=Hi!
I am writing you because I have some concerns with the knowledge transit operators have concerning the lawful transport of guns/ammo on buses.
As we both know, RCW 9.91.025 states in part "...except that nothing herein prevents a person from carrying a cigarette, cigar, or pipe lighter or carrying a firearm or ammunition in a way that is not otherwise prohibited by law"
I have had several operators tell me that ammunition is prohibited on the bus, and some also tell me that an unloaded, cased longarm (rifle, shotgun) is also prohibited.
I also have a valid concealed weapons permit. This means that I can of course carry a loaded, concealed handgun on my person on the bus. What is not common knowledge is that a person with a concealed weapons permit may carry their handgun [i]openly][/i] which is to say, not concealed in a vehicle. The requirement for a concealed weapons permit to carry a loaded handgun in any self propelled vehicle does not require that the handgun be concealed. I have a training directive issued by the Olympia Police Department which details the laws regarding lawful open carry. A transcribed copy may be viewed at http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/5745.html
I would like your assurance that your operators understand the lawful ways in which a person may carry a firearm or ammunition on public transit, bus stops, etc... In my case I have been fingerprinted and subject to an FBI background check in order to receive a concealed weapons permit. I trust that my rights will not be violated and be respected. I can be reached at (360) 451-9710 if you would like to discuss this further.
Thank you for your time.
Steve Coffman[/size]
I just got an email from Mike Harbour, director of IT regarding transport of guns and ammo on InterCity Transit bus'. Their lawyers conceded legal CC, transport of cased longarms, and legal ammo transport. They then fell back on the "warrants alarm" BS regarding OC. Mr. Harbour had not even read the transcript of the OPD training directive, nor had referenced it to the lawyers it seems.
I called Mr. Harbour a minute ago and clarified the situation a bit. I emphasized that OC was legal, that a person must be engaged in conduct other than mere OC in order to "warrant alarm", etc... I again referenced the OPD training directive, told him who drafted it, where he could see a transcribed copy on OCDO, gave him the link on OCDO for other local training bulletins, etc...
From my phone call, I believe he understands OC is legal, it is a matter of getting it trickled down to supervisors and operators. I am going to hold out for him to state in writing that they will not give me grief with OC.
Below is all corresponce with IT, my most recent reply at the top...
Thank you for your reply. This is the link I was trying to locate while on the phone with you...
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/5745.html
Also, as I mentioned, Lt. Bill Wilson with the OPD drafted this document, and I also have a hard copy I can make available to you.
This link will give you PDF copies of currently available training bulletins from other police agencies
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/5335.html
Please note that Washington State has complete pre-emption of firearms laws and rules (excepting where it is legal to discharge) and possession/transport laws must be and are consistent across the state.
Thank you for your time, I hope that myself or others will not have any problems transporting arms and ammunition in any legal manner.
Steve Coffman
Mike Harbour <MHarbour@intercitytransit.com> wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
Our legal counsel has reviewed your questions and I will try to explain our policy – I will also post this for our Operators and Supervisors.
Our policy is stated in our Rules of Conduct as follows:
Carrying, exhibiting, displaying, or drawing any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons, unless otherwise authorized by law (RCW 9.41.270);
The key part of this sentence is “warrants alarm for the safety of other persons”. Thus, our rules prohibit anyone from carrying a firearm on the bus in a way that would make other passengers nervous or fearful.
Your concealed weapons permit allows you to carry a concealed weapon. Our legal counsel’s opinion is that this does not grant you any additional right to carry a weapon openly. If you carried a firearm in a manner that “manifests an intent to intimidate another or warrants alarm for the safety of other persons”, you would be subject to our Rules of Conduct.
You should be able to bring a cased longarm on the bus without a problem.
I will have a clarification of our policy posted for all Operators and Supervisors as soon as possible. I am copying Jim Merrill, our Director of Operations, on this reply
Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns regarding this.
Mike Harbour
General Manager
[align=center][size=
][/size][/align]
From: Steve [mailto:sv_libertarian@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 1:37 PM
To: Mike Harbour
Subject: RE: lawful transport of firearms/ammo on buses
[size=][/size]
[size=Thank you. I appreciate your reply and your willingness to discuss the matter. Can I presume that currently under RCW 9.91.025 should I bring a cased longarm on board the bus that I would not have any problems?
Thanks,
Steve
[b]Mike][/b] Harbour <MHarbour@intercitytransit.com> wrote:[/size]
Thank you for your e-mail. I will have our legal counsel review this and we will put together appropriate direction for our Operators. I will contact you with this information to see if you agree with our interpretation.
I appreciate you raising this issue – I do not believe it has come up before.
It may be approximately two weeks before I have information for you but will try to contact you sooner than this.
Please call me at 705-5855 if you have any questions.
Mike Harbour
General Manager
[align=center][size=
][/size][/align]
From: Steve [mailto:sv_libertarian@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 9:37 PM
To: Mike Harbour
Subject: lawful transport of firearms/ammo on buses
[size=][/size]
[size=Hi!
I am writing you because I have some concerns with the knowledge transit operators have concerning the lawful transport of guns/ammo on buses.
As we both know, RCW 9.91.025 states in part "...except that nothing herein prevents a person from carrying a cigarette, cigar, or pipe lighter or carrying a firearm or ammunition in a way that is not otherwise prohibited by law"
I have had several operators tell me that ammunition is prohibited on the bus, and some also tell me that an unloaded, cased longarm (rifle, shotgun) is also prohibited.
I also have a valid concealed weapons permit. This means that I can of course carry a loaded, concealed handgun on my person on the bus. What is not common knowledge is that a person with a concealed weapons permit may carry their handgun [i]openly][/i] which is to say, not concealed in a vehicle. The requirement for a concealed weapons permit to carry a loaded handgun in any self propelled vehicle does not require that the handgun be concealed. I have a training directive issued by the Olympia Police Department which details the laws regarding lawful open carry. A transcribed copy may be viewed at http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/5745.html
I would like your assurance that your operators understand the lawful ways in which a person may carry a firearm or ammunition on public transit, bus stops, etc... In my case I have been fingerprinted and subject to an FBI background check in order to receive a concealed weapons permit. I trust that my rights will not be violated and be respected. I can be reached at (360) 451-9710 if you would like to discuss this further.
Thank you for your time.
Steve Coffman[/size]
