New guy from Lower Alabama

In talking to City Investigators (Montgomery equivalent of IAD), the investigator related that the 911 operators likely did not know that OC is lawful. I pointed out that part of the fix would be for all 911 operators to be trained in lawful OC, and some questions to ask to determine if officers need to be dispatched. Here is a sample convo.

Operator: 911, what is your emergency?
Caller: There is a man with a gun in Target.
O: Is the gun in its holster?
C: Yes, but I am scared. He is not allowed to do that.
O: It is possible that he is allowed to carry. Is he handling the gun?
C: No.
O: Is he threatening or being argumentative with anyone?
C: No.
O: Is he doing anything else that leads you to believe that he will use the gun.
C: Well, just that he has it with him.
O: Open carry of a firearm in Alabama is lawful. We can send an officer for a look-see, but unless the man is doing something illegal or threatening, the officer won't even stop him and talk to him. Do you still need us to take an officer off patrol to take a look?
C: Well, I guess not.

--or--

C: Yes, this man needs to be stopped.
O: OK, there is an officer on the way. However, if the man is simply carrying a properly holstered firearm, we will not stop, detain, question, or arrest him. He will be allowed to go about his business. Should the officer contact you at the scene? ...

Yes! Please! Sign me up! How can i make that part of my reality?!?

Talk to your local 911 folks. I talked to the guy who heads up the communication department in Montgomery. He agrees that 911 operators need a script to deal with MWAG calls that could eliminate responding to calls on law-abiding OCers. He is going to meet with the city attorney, the police, and his staff to study the issue. He'll get back with me in a few days.

911 call

"Yes ma'am, he is legally allowed to carry a firearm openly. Do you really want me to dispatch an officer off patrol? The closest unit will take 10 minutes to get there, 20 minutes to investigate the situation, another 10 minutes to fill out a report, then 10 more minutes to get back to real crime prevention. Add the fuel cost and maintenance of the cruiser, the cost to taxpayers is going to be $139 to check out a law abiding citizen. Does that sound like a good use of our resources to you?"

Mobile ?

Can anyone from the Mobile area let me know what the OC climate is like there, and how is the MPD about handling it? My wife will be in Mobile area for a year, starting in Jan. I will be down there frequently and would like to OC as comfortably as I do around the Wiregrass area. We were down yesterday to check out the town, and saw cops everywhere. I was CC'ing then until I feel it out or get some feedback. Thanks.

The last time I checked, Mobile was still in Alabama. We all know what the Alabama law is on open carry. Mobile can be no more restrictive on gun rights issues than any other part of our state.
I see no reason to be cautious or timid about open carry when in Mobile, Florala, Enterprise, Montgomery, Huntsville..... and so forth.
Please go about your business and open carry as often as this frigid weather will allow.
Since there are apparently still those on the payroll of various law enforcement agencies who either do not know the law or do not agree with it, carry a recorder and consider carrying handouts with appropriate laws in print.

I agree with you, I have been OC'ing in Enterprise and surrounding cities all most always, and for quite some time now. I have had conversations with the Police Chief and feel very comfortable going about my business OC'ing around here, but didn't get that warm fuzzy feeling while in Mobile, no reason why. I always carry a recorder and some cards and literature, but I guess wasn't ready for anything to hit the fan away from home. I'll just have to jump in and I'm sure my confidence will grow quickly.

OC in Mobile

FedFirefighter said:

Can anyone from the Mobile area let me know what the OC climate is like there, and how is the MPD about handling it? My wife will be in Mobile area for a year, starting in Jan. I will be down there frequently and would like to OC as comfortably as I do around the Wiregrass area. We were down yesterday to check out the town, and saw cops everywhere. I was CC'ing then until I feel it out or get some feedback. Thanks.

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I have OC'ed all over Mobile County. The Sheriff says he knows OC is legal as do his deputies. Mobile City is only one section of Mobile County. Honestly, I have not had an encounter with LEO in Mobile (city or county) while OC, so I am not sure how they feel. I can say that I have never experienced "public alarm" either.

If you are going to OC in AL, know the law

If you learn the laws of the state, you can OC in confidence. There have only been two things they have charged citizens with when they OC and both can be fought using the law.

The law 13A-11-52 says you can't carry on premises not your own but starts with the phrase "Except as otherwise providied in theis article...". You simply tell the officer they can't arrest you on this because 13A-11-55 states that the ONLY illegal or unlawful carry of a pistol on premises not your own is concealed carry without a license.

The other charge is disorderly conduct under 13A-11-7. You can fight this by telling the officers that 1) there is nothing in this law about a carrying a pistol; 2)there is nothing in this law that gives LEOs, DA's or judges the authority to define what is "alarm", "public inconvenience", "annoyance" or "recklessly creating a risk". The state legislature has already given six (6) descriptions in the law and none mention firearms. 3) Only the state legislature can make laws and only the state supreme court can interpret the law.

If you can defend your position, you will probably not be charged since you have proven you know the law. The LEO will not want to be in court and have this whole thing replayed to show that he didn't know the law when he made the arrest. He also doesn't want to lose his job which may be a reality if he decides to arrest you after you explained the law to him. He can't claim he made the arrest in "good faith" AFTER you have explained the law to him.

Don't forget your recorder! It will prove that you told the officer the law, you explained it to him, you asked for him to call his supervisor to verify the truth of what you told him, etc. The recorder will get you cleared, the law is on your side and the cop doesn't want to be seen like an imbecile in an open court room.

Recorder

AL Ranger said:

If you learn the laws of the state, you can OC in confidence. There have only been two things they have charged citizens with when they OC and both can be fought using the law.

The law 13A-11-52 says you can't carry on premises not your own but starts with the phrase "Except as otherwise providied in theis article...". You simply tell the officer they can't arrest you on this because 13A-11-55 states that the ONLY illegal or unlawful carry of a pistol on premises not your own is concealed carry without a license.

The other charge is disorderly conduct under 13A-11-7. You can fight this by telling the officers that 1) there is nothing in this law about a carrying a pistol; 2)there is nothing in this law that gives LEOs, DA's or judges the authority to define what is "alarm", "public inconvenience", "annoyance" or "recklessly creating a risk". The state legislature has already given six (6) descriptions in the law and none mention firearms. 3) Only the state legislature can make laws and only the state supreme court can interpret the law.

If you can defend your position, you will probably not be charged since you have proven you know the law. The LEO will not want to be in court and have this whole thing replayed to show that he didn't know the law when he made the arrest. He also doesn't want to lose his job which may be a reality if he decides to arrest you after you explained the law to him. He can't claim he made the arrest in "good faith" AFTER you have explained the law to him.

Don't forget your recorder! It will prove that you told the officer the law, you explained it to him, you asked for him to call his supervisor to verify the truth of what you told him, etc. The recorder will get you cleared, the law is on your side and the cop doesn't want to be seen like an imbecile in an open court room.

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What happens to the recorder in the event you are detained? I suppose you just leave it running and let the batteries run out. I wonder if the cop ever tries to delete the conversation on it to save his own butt. If the batteries run down, will it just stop recording at that point or does it delete the entire segment? Any experience with this? Thanks.

The batteries in most recording devices should last long enough for a 'routine' stop. Some members turn the recorder on when they leave the house in the morning and just delete the whole day when they go to bed.

If the recorder is taken during the detainment it would be an illegal seizure under the 4th amendment. There is no law against recording conversations with police officers (or anyone else) in Alabama, so they would have no (legal) reason to take the recording device. If you are arrested it would be processed with the rest of your possessions, but I don't know what the policy would be. You could claim it was evidence, and couldn't be tampered with. That might work.

Recorder

If the recording was deleted, it would show some guilt of the cop(s) that deleted it, but how will you ever know what they deleted? And if your recorder is still running after they take it from you, then gets carried around, and happens to record something else (a private conversation that you were not involved in), like an illegal activity, bribe, etc... would that recording thereby be illegal? Hmmmm.....:idea:

If the officer was silly enough to leave your recorder running, it would not fall under "Criminal Eavesdropping" because you never intended for the recorder to leave your possession, much less to record conversations to which you were not a party. Ironically, the officer carrying it could be open to charges, as he technically did not consent to record the conversations he would have had.

13A-11-31 said:

Criminal eavesdropping.

(a) A person commits the crime of criminal eavesdropping if he intentionally uses any device to eavesdrop, whether or not he is present at the time.

(b) Criminal eavesdropping is a Class A misdemeanor.
(Acts 1977, No. 607, p. 812, §5605.)

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13A-11-30 said:

...
(1) EAVESDROP. To overhear, record, amplify or transmit any part of the private communication of others without the consent of at least one of the persons engaged in the communication, except as otherwise provided by law.
...

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I remember seeing some case law on this that said two people sitting alone on a park bench had no right or expectation to privacy because they were in a "public" place.

Packin' said:

I remember seeing some case law on this that said two people sitting alone on a park bench had no right or expectancy to privacy because they were in a "public" place.

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According to a lawyer who posts in the VA forum, they don't. You can slap a recorder up under the bench, record their "private" conversation, and listen to it afterward--except where explicitly prohibited by State law. I seem to recall that, in MA, it is explicitly illegal.

eye95:

In Georgia..., as is in The Majority of other States, once a Person goes about Their Business in Public..., that Person Waivers His Right to Privacy by Means of being in an Public Place.

aadvark

I open carry in the Mobile area all the time. On foot and while biking. Haven't been pulled over in any case but did have a few unmarked cars pass me checking me out a couple of times while biking.

I've also called the City of Mobile's attorney and asked him how the City viewed open carry as I didn't want to have to sue them if one of their officers failed to understand the law on open carry. He told me that the City of Mobile abides by Alabama state law regarding open carry. I am assuming he understands the preemption and prohibition on municipalities interfering with an Alabamian's Right to open carry. My time on the phone during this time lasted about 40 minutes while they figured out what to tell me.

I talked with a sheriff's deputy (sergeant) who was serving an eviction notice about six months ago. I asked him, "If you saw a man or woman walking down the street with a holstered pistol or revolver what would you do?" He replied, "Nothing." I smiled and said that's what I wanted to hear as it's consistent with my understanding of Alabama law on open carry. He agreed with me and stated further, "That's what you all pay us for." From this conversation I can only assume the sheriff's department is fully aware of the law on open carry. At least this sergeant is informed.

Some of the younger City officers on the other hand have no clue. Had one come into a store where I had a guy try to rob me to complete a police report. He had no idea open carry was lawful. I gave him a copy of Attorney General Graddick's opinion on the matter along with a couple of appeals court cases. I always carry these documents with me when open carrying.

I have a smartphone which has a built-in audio recorder. I've set the recorder to activate with one of two buttons I can program for various programs. The first thing I will do if stopped is activate my recorder. I also carry a small point and shoot camera that records hidef video.

If anyone wants to get together for coffee out in West Mobile let me know. Send me a PM and we can set a date and time. Maybe those of us from this area can get together sometime soon.

The climate for me on open carry in Mobile seems to be supportive, but as I've said I haven't been stopped yet in the two years I've open carried. I frequently open carry at Walmart on Schillinger Road as well as Target and many other stores and locations. Include also Lagham Park and Cottage Hill Park.

Was in Walmart grocery shopping for almost an hour and had no problem whatsoever. I was there to buy groceries and not make any political statement though. I don't do anything to draw unnecessary attention to my firearm and when out and about I focus on what I'm doing and not open carry although I am open carrying. Hope that makes sense.

aadvark said:

eye95:

In Georgia..., as is in The Majority of other States, once a Person goes about Their Business in Public..., that Person Waivers His Right to Privacy by Means of being in an Public Place.

aadvark

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Not so. You retain all Rights whether in public or not. You have no expectation of privacy if you decide to strip naked on a public sidewalk if that's what you mean.

Retail stores are not 'public' places, they are private property. Public buildings are government buildings like a post office, courthouse, library, police station, etc. Walmart, Target, Circle K, etc., are private businesses on private property. These retail businesses have the right to setup video and other surveillance if that wish. You have no right to complain and if you disagree with their doing so can simply not enter their property.