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Thread: Officer Safety

  1. #1
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    It was suggested onthe GI Joethread that I create a new thread to ask this question. So here goes. As a LEO following up on a complaintand approaching acitizen,who has received bad news, is agitated, uncooperative and eventually has to be tasered are you safer if he is open carrying or concealed carrying? I think you are far safer if he is open carrying where you have a visual on the weapon but what do you think?



    irfner

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    I'll bite.

    I'm not an LEO.

    LE already has procedures that obviate the question.

    "Show me your hands!" being one.

    If you think about it, criminals don't OC, so LE has had quite some time to develop tactics based onsome people beingarmed and concealing it.


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    I suspect LEOs are more often shot by guns they are not aware of than they are by guns they know about.

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    The fact of the matter isa cop is statistically safer dealing with a person who is OC'ing as apposed to a person concealing their gun. The officer obviously knows from the onset if the person is armed and can plan the encounter accordingly. On the other hand a cop coming into a situation like you described when the person is concealing his gun is already at a severe disadvantage. All cops are trained that a person "could" have a gun, but it is human nature to fool yourself into thinking, "if I don't see it it's not there". That being said almost any cop will treat you differently if you are OC'ing but they will also treat you differently if you are CC'ing and they find out.

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    Sitrep wrote:
    I suspect LEOs are more often shot by guns they are not aware of than they are by guns they know about.

    I think it's usually a situation like this:

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/...281455165.html

    or

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...%20on%20Police

    or

    http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dw...1eae9da38.html

    Etc.

    If there's a gun that a cop should worry most about, it's his or her own imho.

    But I agree with other posters, a person who is OCing is less of a threat than someone with a 'hidden' gun.

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    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
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    Why would approaching an armednon-LEO who you already knew to be lawfully carrying any more dangerous then approaching an armed cop? Cops have the same potential to snap and go postal on people (Sheriff's deputy Tyler Peterson.)

    Why invoke the "officer safety" class-card? Why is officer safety more important then safety in general? Last i checked, OSHA applied to everybody equally.




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    ChinChin wrote:
    Why would approaching an armednon-LEO who you already knew to be lawfully carrying any more dangerous then approaching an armed cop? Cops have the same potential to snap and go postal on people (Sheriff's deputy Tyler Peterson.)

    Why invoke the "officer safety" class-card? Why is officer safety more important then safety in general? Last i checked, OSHA applied to everybody equally.
    Isuspect it's because, from the perspective of a LEO,the most salient feature of a gun being carried by a non-LEO--any gun, carried in any manner, open or concealed--is that it can hurt or kill him.

    It's a dichotomous condition that all LEOs are programmed to think about in all new situations--Does he have a gun? Top priority for that condition determination. And that answers, rather obviously, the point of view about a civilian who is "kn[own] to be lawfully carrying." It's easy, very easy, to conceptualize that a GG has the means to become a BG in muchless than one second (people here brag about how fast they can draw, don't they?). It's gotta be unsettling for a LEO to be dealing with the dregs of society 99.9% of the time, including dangerous dregs--constantly scanning the environment for threats to his person, with the training to act almost instantaneously--then to come across a bona fide "threat" who thenis somewhat poutilyindignant to be perceived as such simply because he is a nice guy and knows he is a nice guy?

    How do people (civilians) here reactwhen coming across panhandlers, bums, baggy pants youths, tattooed characters and other ne'er do wells who are really nice guys? Do they assume that thepanhandler, baggy pantser, etc. are lawfully doing their panhandling, bumming, pantsing? Yeah, right. LOL.



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    ChinChin wrote:
    Why would approaching an armednon-LEO who you already knew to be lawfully carrying any more dangerous then approaching an armed cop? Cops have the same potential to snap and go postal on people (Sheriff's deputy Tyler Peterson.)

    Why invoke the "officer safety" class-card? Why is officer safety more important then safety in general? Last i checked, OSHA applied to everybody equally.



    ChinChin,

    The original scenario that irfner posed was that the person was highly agitated and uncooperative. He then asked if cc or oc would be safer for the Officer. In that situation I would much prefer oc due to the fact that I already know there is a gun involved. Depending on the persons actions, I may well draw on him, and get his weapon secured so I don't have to worry about him reaching for it. We can then safely deal with that person.

    If he had it concealed and I suddenly noticed it, I would not be happy and would definetely draw on him. Police do not like to be surprised by a gun, and it will invoke a quick response.

    As for Officer safety, it is the #1 priority at ALL times in any situation.I'm not sure what you mean by safety in general, but I can assure you that if the Officer defuses the situation and is safer, all present are then safer. HankT pretty much nailed it in his post.

    As for the armed Cop, A reasonable person is not frightened by the sight of an Officer. It is something you see every day, and their gun is one of many tools that are used to do the job. If you choose to believe that all cops will do what Peterson did, you are living in a fantasy world.

    Also I have dealt with many people who have been oc'ing and were suicidal. Unfortunately these people really don't care who they take with them, and will even shoot at Police (suicide by cop) so that they will be shot/killed. Been there, done that.
    If you have to fight, do not fear death. We will all die one day, so fight skillfully and bravely! And if it is to be that you die, then at least go to God proudly. Meet him as the proud warrior that you are, and not as a sniveling coward. Nobody lives forever.

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    Were they actually OC'ing or were thay brandishing?

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    JohnnyLaw,

    Also I have dealt with many people who have been oc'ing and were suicidal. Unfortunately these people really don't care who they take with them, and will even shoot at Police (suicide by cop) so that they will be shot/killed. Been there, done that.



    Last edited on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 07:38 am by Johnny Law



    Sorry Pard, but you are really loosing credence with me. Just too many "been there done that" items. You must really live in a BAD area. Did you get a "T" shirt also?

    Jim

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    Regular Member Johnny Law's Avatar
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    If you have to fight, do not fear death. We will all die one day, so fight skillfully and bravely! And if it is to be that you die, then at least go to God proudly. Meet him as the proud warrior that you are, and not as a sniveling coward. Nobody lives forever.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Johnny Law's Avatar
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    If you have to fight, do not fear death. We will all die one day, so fight skillfully and bravely! And if it is to be that you die, then at least go to God proudly. Meet him as the proud warrior that you are, and not as a sniveling coward. Nobody lives forever.

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    Trigger Dr wrote:
    JohnnyLaw,

    Also I have dealt with many people who have been oc'ing and were suicidal. Unfortunately these people really don't care who they take with them, and will even shoot at Police (suicide by cop) so that they will be shot/killed. Been there, done that.



    Last edited on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 07:38 am by Johnny Law



    Sorry Pard, but you are really loosing credence with me. Just too many "been there done that" items. You must really live in a BAD area. Did you get a "T" shirt also?

    Jim
    In Johnny Law's defense my dad, he was an officer for 10 years, had the same experiences as Johnny, hell he had quite a number of suicidal armed person calls as well. I don't find it odd that he has had all these different experiences at all.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

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  14. #14
    Regular Member Johnny Law's Avatar
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    Trigger Dr wrote:
    Sorry Pard, but you are really loosing credence with me. Just too many "been there done that" items. You must really live in a BAD area. Did you get a "T" shirt also?

    Jim
    Let me clarify that. I live in a great area, but work in a bad area.

    My post was in answer to a question/scenario that I have quite a bit of experience in, and was not placed there to impress you. I got my street education rather quickly, and it has served me well. Also remember, I've been at it a while.

    If you wish to share your experiences with the group, then by all means do so. I would likely not have reason to doubt you.

    Also thanks for the vote of confidence JoeRoket.
    If you have to fight, do not fear death. We will all die one day, so fight skillfully and bravely! And if it is to be that you die, then at least go to God proudly. Meet him as the proud warrior that you are, and not as a sniveling coward. Nobody lives forever.

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    Johnny Law wrote:
    Also I have dealt with many people who have been oc'ing and were suicidal. Unfortunately these people really don't care who they take with them, and will even shoot at Police (suicide by cop) so that they will be shot/killed. Been there, done that.



    I take offense at the term 'suicide by cop.' It is a phrase used by the LEOs to create bias in favor of police who are involved in shootings. It is designedtocreate automatic acceptance in the listener, that the cop did the 'right' thing, the only thing he or she could do.

    When you hear about a bad guy shooting a cop, do they ever use the term "suicide by citizen"? They should, at least sometimes. If it can flow in one direction, it can flow in the other.

    After all, police are in a HIGH RISK demographic for depression and suicidal thoughts. Now normally when a cop kills himself it iscalled a "gun cleaning accident" but sometimes it just might be done via "suicide by citizen."

    http://www.policeone.com/news/1232309/

    http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=local&id=5768525


    http://www.mentalhealthworld.org/45SEW.htm

    http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/1996/oct966.txt

    Besides, the job of 'police officer' is not particularly dangerous. They typically don't make the list of top ten most dangerous jobs in America: unlike cab driver, logger, commercial fisherman, truck driver, construction worker, etc. All are more dangerous than being a police officer.

    http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/26/pf/jobs_jeopardy/

    And what is the MOST DANGEOUS aspect of a police officers job? It has nothing to do with guns... rather it has to do with AUTOMOBILES! Being involved in vehicular accidents causes more injuries and deaths to police officers than firearms ever will.

    Why do cops distrust people who carry (OP or CCW)? Because it creates a 'balance of power', so to speak, and they generally prefer to have all the power.

    And, as someone else already pointed out, they develop the mentality of 'them vs the world,'every citizen is a potential BG.





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    Dave_pro2a,

    Sorry if suicide by cop offends, you. I didn't coin it, but it does happen. I'm not suggesting that all shootings are attributed to this, but it is fairly common and I have seen it happen. I will try to think of a candy coated p.c. analogy for it if you like.

    As far as "suicide by citizen" never heard of it. Maybe you can provide the research documents that back up your theory.

    Nowhere in my post did I claim how dangerous the job is, but I can tell that it definetly has moments when life and death decisions are made in a fraction of a second.

    I myself as most of my counterparts, do not have a problem with cc or oc. The more armed (well trained) people out there the better. Please don't lump me in that category, as I readily condone armed citizens.

    It's not about power. A gun is a tool that is used under certain situations, and is vital to my profession. Many on this board (apparently including you) have a us vs. them attitude toward Police.

    If you had any good friends that were cops, you might find that a lot of the crap you read is just that. You cite articles, studies, anti-police propaganda, and think you know what it's all about. If you believe everything you are reading you don't have a clue. I witness these events, while you read about them in a biased newspaper article or "study".

    Don't ever assume that you know what Police work is all about unless you've walked the walk.
    If you have to fight, do not fear death. We will all die one day, so fight skillfully and bravely! And if it is to be that you die, then at least go to God proudly. Meet him as the proud warrior that you are, and not as a sniveling coward. Nobody lives forever.

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    Hey, JL were the people you mentioned who were suicidal actually OC'ing or were they brandishing. It would be inaccurate and misleading to say some distraught person holding a gun to their own head is "Open carrying".

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    Agent 47 wrote:
    Hey, JL were the people you mentioned who were suicidal actually OC'ing or were they brandishing. It would be inaccurate and misleading to say some distraught person holding a gun to their own head is "Open carrying".
    I was sure he had mentioned it before, and it looks like it was a post that he has deleted. I did have an email with it though. His reply was:

    Granted, typically the people oc'ing merely had a gun tucked in their waistband, but highly visible.
    Which of course isn't even close to what THIS group represents. But I guess those of us who peacefully carry a firearm securely in a Level 2 retention holster (which is what we as a group recommend) is the same as a thug who tucks them in their waistband.




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    Agent 47,

    Sorry about that, I did answer your earlier q, and then accidently deleted it. I have seen it go both ways although those who were not brandishing usually had the gun tucked in their waistband, and rarely in a holster.

    Let me also add that these people are in no way related to a typical oc'er. But from an Officer's point of view, approaching an obviously armed andupset person is hazardous.You just can't know what they have just gone through, or their mindset at that moment.
    If you have to fight, do not fear death. We will all die one day, so fight skillfully and bravely! And if it is to be that you die, then at least go to God proudly. Meet him as the proud warrior that you are, and not as a sniveling coward. Nobody lives forever.

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    As a side-note, until I had a holster to OC my G27 (in condition 3) in, I had to "mexican carry" it in my waistband, but I did so with it in the 6-O-clock position, RH-palm-in-draw, which allowed the ejection port to positively engage my belt and didn't go anywhere, even when jogging or biking. I only did this while CC'ing, since open carrying in a waistband is just that one step closer to "time, manner, and place" for the alarm for safety of others statute.

    But, even though I waistband-carried, I was still one of the "GG's" and did so responsibly. Essentially, I'm trying to say that that manner of carry doesn't automatically make someone a "BG".
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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    just_a_car wrote:
    I only did this while CC'ing, since open carrying in a waistband is just that one step closer to "time, manner, and place" for the alarm for safety of others statute.
    I was going to point that out, but the "oc'ing" was specifically mentioned as being a part of the argument, and I knew you only did it CC. Thus it wasn't applicable.

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    Johnny Law,

    I may be mis-interpreting what you write, but it does lead me to think that here might be some "embellishment" in your posts. If I am getting the wrong impression, I appologize.

    No, I do not want to share my experiences, there is no way they could be along the same plane as yours for the simple reason of working in a time frame and location removed from what I would expect yours to be. I will say, I was in LE for27 years, and during that time only experienced "suicide by cop" type occurence two times. Both of which were terminated without gunfire, and one armed standoff with lots of gunfire, and no one dying.

    I worked for 27 years and retired 10 years ago. In that 27 year span, I also spent 4 years on the bench as a lower court judge. That and 50 cents might buy a cup of coffee at the local shelter. It is past history.

    Jim

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    Kind of ironic that there was an alleged attempted "suicide by cop", I use that term for lack of a better one, inTacoma in the last day or so.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    I am not a LEO. I was in a situation where a person I knew was being questioned by 2 LEOs and I was present talking to another officer.2 other LEOs were also on the property checking out vehicles parked there. The person I knew, Joe, had (we found out later) had stollen a number of verhicles in more than one state and was wanted in another state.

    At some point in the questioning by 2 LEOs in Joe's home (I was outside talking to another officer), Joe pulled out a shotgun and shot a cop 2 times in the chest (he lived)and ran to another room while the the 2nd officer shot 3 times at Joe.

    During the standoff (about 10 minutes) Joe finally decided to attempt to leave out a window in the back. As it was dark and a long way from additional LEOsand only the front of the house was actually covered by police, Joe managed to get out and as he was moving away from the house he walked within 20 feet of where I and the officer I had been talking to prior to the shooting were hiding...behind my car.

    When the officer spotted Joe (still carrying the shotgun) the officer told him to stop and drop the weapon. Joe responded by raising the weapon at the officer who shot 6 shots hitting Joe 5 times in the torso.

    Joe was still standing and the officer quickly reloaded his S&W 38 Spl. The officer pleaded with Joe to drop the gun because he didn't want to shoot him again. The officer tried everything he could to get Joe to surrender without additional force being used.

    During the officers pleading with Joe to please drop the gun, Joe again quickly pointed the gun at the officer who again emptied his gun into Joe who finally when down. Joe died about 1 hour later.

    I believe Joe decided he did not want to go back to prison and wanted to commit suicide by cop. He did a good job of creating a situation that resulted in his death.

    The first office who was shot retired with serious health problems. The office who shot Joe was a really nice person who had never shot anyone before and the event was devastating for him.

    Unless you are present at such an event, it is doubful that you can totally understand how quickly decisions must be made and the emotions involved. The officer who shot Joe was leaning against me to provide cover for me. When Joe brought the gun up and pointed it at the officer I felt the officers fear through my entire body.

    I respect LEOs and their job far more after that event than ever before. For those who think there is always a non-violent way to handle bad guys..,.my view is Joe left the officer with no other option.

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    I really don't like the idea suicide-by-cop either. (somebody PLEASE think of a better term!)But it's not a new phenomena. I was watching the Starz Westerns channel just the other day. In one movie the bad guy forced the Marshall into one last shootout, that he knew he couldn't win, just so he could go out with guns blazing. I'm sure we've all seen dozens of movies like that. I wish someone would come up with a better name for it than suicide-by-cop. The real victim is the cop who was forced to pull the trigger. No matter what you think of policemen the one thing they don't relish is shooting people. Anyone who straps on a gun in the morning and thinks "Goody,this may be the day I get to shoot someone" is a nutjob. What anyone who straps on a gun in the morning should be thinking is, "what if this is the day I am forced to shoot someone."



    Now fair is fair folks. And if I have to play Volar the Refereethen so be it.

    You can go to the circus. You can ride the rides. Play the games. Eat the cotton candy. You can buy the circus t-shirt. You can then say, honestly say, been there-done that. Buteven though you stepped right into the elephant dung you still weren't IN the Circus.

    Now Johnny Law didn't say that he'd been the one who pulled the trigger. You only have to be on scene either before, during or after to "have been there". And you do not have to be in a bad area to see an awfullot in a decade. Especially in recent decades. Personally I was never in a S-B-C encounter but I do know an officer who was. I was off that night. But I read all of the reports. I talked with him about it andsaw how it effected him. I talked to the other guys who were there too. Does this make me qualified to comment on the matter?I really don't know exactly how it feels. But I know enough to be thankful that I don't know more.

    As for as Trigger Doc's comments of "Just too many 'been there done that' items", followed by"No, I do not want to share my experiences"? How many times have we heard about when you were "on the bench as a lower court judge"? (Remember there is a search feature) Yet I don't recall anyone calling your integrity into question. Even after we learned that your bench experience was in a different state with different laws. And you "only" did that for four years. But think about how much you DID see in those four years.I bet you saw so much that it's actually hard to remember it all, didn't you? Plus what you saw when you wore the badge. Now, like me, you're a dinosaur. But what we experienced back then is just as valid as what Johnny is experiencing today.

    Yes, Johnny can be a little abrasive at times. It's a traithe shares with many of us here. It's comes with honesty. Honesty is seldom pretty. Plus, he's a copnot a novelist.He started on this forum by doing a little trolling. I think it was because he didn't quite understand what we were all about. And it took him some time to sort us all out. Now he could have just brushed us off and went on about his life. But he stayed around. He took some time to get to know and understand the various people and personalities here. And you must admit we have some characters here. He has since progressed to actually becoming a contributing member. I didn't like him at first either. Hell's Bells we still ain't busom buddies. But I do respect him. And his recent posts are much more signal and a lot less noise. And that's more than I can say for a lot of members.

    We should all be thankful to have a working cop amongst our ranks. Trigger and me and a few others can only talk about the good ol' days. Look at the working LEO's on some of the other states on OCDO. At least we have one who tries to understand us. Don't we owe him the same consideration?




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