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Officer Safety

irfner

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It was suggested onthe GI Joethread that I create a new thread to ask this question. So here goes. As a LEO following up on a complaintand approaching acitizen,who has received bad news, is agitated, uncooperative and eventually has to be tasered are you safer if he is open carrying or concealed carrying? I think you are far safer if he is open carrying where you have a visual on the weapon but what do you think?



irfner
 

Citizen

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I'll bite.

I'm not an LEO.

LE already has procedures that obviate the question.

"Show me your hands!" being one.

If you think about it, criminals don't OC, so LE has had quite some time to develop tactics based onsome people beingarmed and concealing it.
 

Agent 47

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The fact of the matter isa cop is statistically safer dealing with a person who is OC'ing as apposed to a person concealing their gun. The officer obviously knows from the onset if the person is armed and can plan the encounter accordingly. On the other hand a cop coming into a situation like you described when the person is concealing his gun is already at a severe disadvantage. All cops are trained that a person "could" have a gun, but it is human nature to fool yourself into thinking, "if I don't see it it's not there". That being said almost any cop will treat you differently if you are OC'ing but they will also treat you differently if you are CC'ing and they find out.
 

Dave_pro2a

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Sitrep wrote:
I suspect LEOs are more often shot by guns they are not aware of than they are by guns they know about.


I think it's usually a situation like this:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Officer-shot-with-own-gun/2005/04/24/1114281455165.html

or

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C04EEDB123BF934A35753C1A9649C8B63&n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/Subjects/A/Attacks%20on%20Police

or

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa071107_mo_deputyshot.1eae9da38.html

Etc.

If there's a gun that a cop should worry most about, it's his or her own imho.

But I agree with other posters, a person who is OCing is less of a threat than someone with a 'hidden' gun.
 

ChinChin

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Why would approaching an armednon-LEO who you already knew to be lawfully carrying any more dangerous then approaching an armed cop? Cops have the same potential to snap and go postal on people (Sheriff's deputy Tyler Peterson.)

Why invoke the "officer safety" class-card? Why is officer safety more important then safety in general? Last i checked, OSHA applied to everybody equally.
 

HankT

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ChinChin wrote:
Why would approaching an armednon-LEO who you already knew to be lawfully carrying any more dangerous then approaching an armed cop? Cops have the same potential to snap and go postal on people (Sheriff's deputy Tyler Peterson.)

Why invoke the "officer safety" class-card? Why is officer safety more important then safety in general? Last i checked, OSHA applied to everybody equally.

Isuspect it's because, from the perspective of a LEO,the most salient feature of a gun being carried by a non-LEO--any gun, carried in any manner, open or concealed--is that it can hurt or kill him.

It's a dichotomous condition that all LEOs are programmed to think about in all new situations--Does he have a gun? Top priority for that condition determination. And that answers, rather obviously, the point of view about a civilian who is "kn[own] to be lawfully carrying." It's easy, very easy, to conceptualize that a GG has the means to become a BG in muchless than one second (people here brag about how fast they can draw, don't they?). It's gotta be unsettling for a LEO to be dealing with the dregs of society 99.9% of the time, including dangerous dregs--constantly scanning the environment for threats to his person, with the training to act almost instantaneously--then to come across a bona fide "threat" who thenis somewhat poutilyindignant to be perceived as such simply because he is a nice guy and knows he is a nice guy?

How do people (civilians) here reactwhen coming across panhandlers, bums, baggy pants youths, tattooed characters and other ne'er do wells who are really nice guys? Do they assume that thepanhandler, baggy pantser, etc. are lawfully doing their panhandling, bumming, pantsing? Yeah, right. LOL.
 

Johnny Law

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ChinChin wrote:
Why would approaching an armednon-LEO who you already knew to be lawfully carrying any more dangerous then approaching an armed cop? Cops have the same potential to snap and go postal on people (Sheriff's deputy Tyler Peterson.)

Why invoke the "officer safety" class-card? Why is officer safety more important then safety in general? Last i checked, OSHA applied to everybody equally.
ChinChin,

The original scenario that irfner posed was that the person was highly agitated and uncooperative. He then asked if cc or oc would be safer for the Officer. In that situation I would much prefer oc due to the fact that I already know there is a gun involved. Depending on the persons actions, I may well draw on him, and get his weapon secured so I don't have to worry about him reaching for it. We can then safely deal with that person.

If he had it concealed and I suddenly noticed it, I would not be happy and would definetely draw on him. Police do not like to be surprised by a gun, and it will invoke a quick response.

As for Officer safety, it is the #1 priority at ALL times in any situation.I'm not sure what you mean by safety in general, but I can assure you that if the Officer defuses the situation and is safer, all present are then safer. HankT pretty much nailed it in his post.

As for the armed Cop, A reasonable person is not frightened by the sight of an Officer. It is something you see every day, and their gun is one of many tools that are used to do the job. If you choose to believe that all cops will do what Peterson did, you are living in a fantasy world.

Also I have dealt with many people who have been oc'ing and were suicidal. Unfortunately these people really don't care who they take with them, and will even shoot at Police (suicide by cop) so that they will be shot/killed. Been there, done that.
 

Trigger Dr

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JohnnyLaw,

Also I have dealt with many people who have been oc'ing and were suicidal. Unfortunately these people really don't care who they take with them, and will even shoot at Police (suicide by cop) so that they will be shot/killed. Been there, done that.



Last edited on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 07:38 am by Johnny Law



Sorry Pard, but you are really loosing credence with me. Just too many "been there done that" items. You must really live in a BAD area. Did you get a "T" shirt also?

Jim
 

joeroket

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Trigger Dr wrote:
JohnnyLaw,

Also I have dealt with many people who have been oc'ing and were suicidal. Unfortunately these people really don't care who they take with them, and will even shoot at Police (suicide by cop) so that they will be shot/killed. Been there, done that.



Last edited on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 07:38 am by Johnny Law



Sorry Pard, but you are really loosing credence with me. Just too many "been there done that" items. You must really live in a BAD area. Did you get a "T" shirt also?

Jim
In Johnny Law's defense my dad, he was an officer for 10 years, had the same experiences as Johnny, hell he had quite a number of suicidal armed person calls as well. I don't find it odd that he has had all these different experiences at all.
 

Johnny Law

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Trigger Dr wrote:
Sorry Pard, but you are really loosing credence with me. Just too many "been there done that" items. You must really live in a BAD area. Did you get a "T" shirt also?

Jim
Let me clarify that. I live in a great area, but work in a bad area.

My post was in answer to a question/scenario that I have quite a bit of experience in, and was not placed there to impress you. I got my street education rather quickly, and it has served me well. Also remember, I've been at it a while.

If you wish to share your experiences with the group, then by all means do so. I would likely not have reason to doubt you.

Also thanks for the vote of confidence JoeRoket.
 

Dave_pro2a

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Johnny Law wrote:
Also I have dealt with many people who have been oc'ing and were suicidal. Unfortunately these people really don't care who they take with them, and will even shoot at Police (suicide by cop) so that they will be shot/killed. Been there, done that.




I take offense at the term 'suicide by cop.' It is a phrase used by the LEOs to create bias in favor of police who are involved in shootings. It is designedtocreate automatic acceptance in the listener, that the cop did the 'right' thing, the only thing he or she could do.

When you hear about a bad guy shooting a cop, do they ever use the term "suicide by citizen"? They should, at least sometimes. If it can flow in one direction, it can flow in the other.

After all, police are in a HIGH RISK demographic for depression and suicidal thoughts. Now normally when a cop kills himself it iscalled a "gun cleaning accident" but sometimes it just might be done via "suicide by citizen."

http://www.policeone.com/news/1232309/

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=local&id=5768525


http://www.mentalhealthworld.org/45SEW.htm

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/1996/oct966.txt

Besides, the job of 'police officer' is not particularly dangerous. They typically don't make the list of top ten most dangerous jobs in America: unlike cab driver, logger, commercial fisherman, truck driver, construction worker, etc. All are more dangerous than being a police officer.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/26/pf/jobs_jeopardy/

And what is the MOST DANGEOUS aspect of a police officers job? It has nothing to do with guns... rather it has to do with AUTOMOBILES! Being involved in vehicular accidents causes more injuries and deaths to police officers than firearms ever will.

Why do cops distrust people who carry (OP or CCW)? Because it creates a 'balance of power', so to speak, and they generally prefer to have all the power.

And, as someone else already pointed out, they develop the mentality of 'them vs the world,'every citizen is a potential BG.
 

Johnny Law

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Dave_pro2a,

Sorry if suicide by cop offends, you. I didn't coin it, but it does happen. I'm not suggesting that all shootings are attributed to this, but it is fairly common and I have seen it happen. I will try to think of a candy coated p.c. analogy for it if you like.

As far as "suicide by citizen" never heard of it. Maybe you can provide the research documents that back up your theory.

Nowhere in my post did I claim how dangerous the job is, but I can tell that it definetly has moments when life and death decisions are made in a fraction of a second.

I myself as most of my counterparts, do not have a problem with cc or oc. The more armed (well trained) people out there the better. Please don't lump me in that category, as I readily condone armed citizens.

It's not about power. A gun is a tool that is used under certain situations, and is vital to my profession. Many on this board (apparently including you) have a us vs. them attitude toward Police.

If you had any good friends that were cops, you might find that a lot of the crap you read is just that. You cite articles, studies, anti-police propaganda, and think you know what it's all about. If you believe everything you are reading you don't have a clue. I witness these events, while you read about them in a biased newspaper article or "study".

Don't ever assume that you know what Police work is all about unless you've walked the walk.
 

Agent 47

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Hey, JL were the people you mentioned who were suicidal actually OC'ing or were they brandishing. It would be inaccurate and misleading to say some distraught person holding a gun to their own head is "Open carrying".
 

gregma

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Agent 47 wrote:
Hey, JL were the people you mentioned who were suicidal actually OC'ing or were they brandishing. It would be inaccurate and misleading to say some distraught person holding a gun to their own head is "Open carrying".
I was sure he had mentioned it before, and it looks like it was a post that he has deleted. I did have an email with it though. His reply was:

Granted, typically the people oc'ing merely had a gun tucked in their waistband, but highly visible.
Which of course isn't even close to what THIS group represents. But I guess those of us who peacefully carry a firearm securely in a Level 2 retention holster (which is what we as a group recommend) is the same as a thug who tucks them in their waistband.
 

Johnny Law

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Agent 47,

Sorry about that, I did answer your earlier q, and then accidently deleted it. I have seen it go both ways although those who were not brandishing usually had the gun tucked in their waistband, and rarely in a holster.

Let me also add that these people are in no way related to a typical oc'er. But from an Officer's point of view, approaching an obviously armed andupset person is hazardous.You just can't know what they have just gone through, or their mindset at that moment.
 

just_a_car

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As a side-note, until I had a holster to OC my G27 (in condition 3) in, I had to "mexican carry" it in my waistband, but I did so with it in the 6-O-clock position, RH-palm-in-draw, which allowed the ejection port to positively engage my belt and didn't go anywhere, even when jogging or biking. I only did this while CC'ing, since open carrying in a waistband is just that one step closer to "time, manner, and place" for the alarm for safety of others statute.

But, even though I waistband-carried, I was still one of the "GG's" and did so responsibly. Essentially, I'm trying to say that that manner of carry doesn't automatically make someone a "BG".
 
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