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Thread: GWB its all your Fault about AWB

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    http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/ver/250...php?cl=5219807

    UMMMMM.....I'm pretty sure that most of these people are repeat violent offenders how about locking them up and keeping them THERE.....

    Heres the other issue Why not LET cops have the upper hand and issue them M4's as a primary, or whatever carbine enforce the law with an actual enforcement device not a secondary Firearm, viewed by every major authority on guns as something you use only to get back to the scattergun/AR that you should have never put down in the first place. Get real SCREW the PC and Give cops the BEST tools for the job NOT short change them.

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    rob99vmi04 wrote:
    http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/ver/250...php?cl=5219807

    UMMMMM.....I'm pretty sure that most of these people are repeat violent offenders how about locking them up and keeping them THERE.....

    Heres the other issue Why not LET cops have the upper hand and issue them M4's as a primary, or whatever carbine enforce the law with an actual enforcement device not a secondary Firearm, viewed by every major authority on guns as something you use only to get back to the scattergun/AR that you should have never put down in the first place. Get real SCREW the PC and Give cops the BEST tools for the job NOT short change them.
    What is this AWB that gets talked about all the time. There wasn't a federal ban on assault weapons.

    Gawd, I love the English language...

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    rob99vmi04 wrote:
    http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/ver/250...php?cl=5219807

    UMMMMM.....I'm pretty sure that most of these people are repeat violent offenders how about locking them up and keeping them THERE.....

    Heres the other issue Why not LET cops have the upper hand and issue them M4's as a primary, or whatever carbine enforce the law with an actual enforcement device not a secondary Firearm, viewed by every major authority on guns as something you use only to get back to the scattergun/AR that you should have never put down in the first place. Get real SCREW the PC and Give cops the BEST tools for the job NOT short change them.


    The police use too much force against too many people as it is (and that's OUR fault).

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    ama-gi wrote:
    The police use too much force against too many people as it is (and that's OUR fault).
    Oh, you're <whiney voice>cop bashing</whiney voice>! Or...is it better to suck-up ,as the OP implies?

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. LAB/NRA/GOP *******

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    rob99vmi04 wrote:
    http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/ver/250...php?cl=5219807

    UMMMMM.....I'm pretty sure that most of these people are repeat violent offenders how about locking them up and keeping them THERE.....

    Heres the other issue Why not LET cops have the upper hand and issue them M4's as a primary, or whatever carbine enforce the law with an actual enforcement device not a secondary Firearm, viewed by every major authority on guns as something you use only to get back to the scattergun/AR that you should have never put down in the first place. Get real SCREW the PC and Give cops the BEST tools for the job NOT short change them.
    Some do not like the idea of cops being well armed and it is based on one simple idea...

    How can the "people" defend themselves against a corrupt police force.

    They will conjure up half truths and whole lies to make it appear the police are taking over and will someday control everyone. When that day happens.... the sheeple will be defenseless.

    The truth is that the people are getting better armed as better weapons are being made and are readily available. The police have been using the same two guns for years.

    The policeget one handgun and one shotgun. WOW!!! That is way too many guns for them now and maybethey should be taken away. One handgun and one bullet should be all they need, right? It worked with Deputy Fife



    The shotgun is good for about 50 meters if you use slugs and the pistol is only good for about 25 meters.

    And today, we have criminals that can purchase AR-15 rifles and shoot the police from 300 meters away. This places the police at a severe disadvantage.

    I have watched videos of police chases where the bad guy was escapingand was being followed by the police. He would stop, get out and shoot at the cop witha rifle at the copwho was too far to shoot effectively return fire, and take off.

    The simple fact is this.... the police will need to get within 25 meters of the bad guy if they want to neutralize him. The bad guy can accurately shoot them all as they approach.

    So what is the problem with giving them a rifle in their cruiser??


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    ama-gi wrote:
    The police use too much force against too many people as it is (and that's OUR fault).
    In what way do they use too much force?

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    Rifle in the cruiser... I say let em strap one accross their chest.





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    rob99vmi04 wrote:
    Rifle in the cruiser... I say let em strap one accross their chest.

    Oh Man!! Now you have gone way too far!!

    That would be intimidating and the people would not stand for that. The cops are lucky now that they can even carry a gun on their hip.



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    UMMMMMM then we are way to PC... They do it in ISRAEL and in Germany, heck they carry sub-guns into bars to have a Beer.



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    My whole point is don't tie a cops hands behind his back and say okay win this boxing match.

    Police Officers are there to keep the peace. They need the BEST tools for the job to accomplish said task. There isn't a single "Expert" they say a handgun is Great Defensive/Offensive tool, infact they go the exact opposite. A handgun is a horrible choice if you know your going to a situation where gun play is involved. Why not be prepared.

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    rob99vmi04 wrote:
    UMMMMMM then we are way to PC... They do it in ISRAEL and in Germany, heck they carry sub-guns into bars to have a Beer.
    I hear you... But that would make us a police state.

    People fear the police will "take over" and the possession of a rifle or the constant carry of a MP5 while on duty would not be condoned!!

    It is just one additional tool they would have but the people would be waiting for the jack boots to arrive and be worn next.



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    LEO 229 wrote:
    ama-gi wrote:
    The police use too much force against too many people as it is (and that's OUR fault).
    In what way do they use too much force?
    Not gunna get into it here. We've covered it all before more than once (tasers, unlawful arrests, shooting innocents, picking fights, etc, etc, etc). The last thing the gang needs is bigger toys to try out on us.

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    rob99vmi04 wrote:
    My whole point is don't tie a cops hands behind his back and say okay win this boxing match.

    Police Officers are there to keep the peace. They need the BEST tools for the job to accomplish said task. There isn't a single "Expert" they say a handgun is Great Defensive/Offensive tool, infact they go the exact opposite. A handgun is a horrible choice if you know your going to a situation where gun play is involved. Why not be prepared.

    The idea that police can't do their job without tanks and grenade launchers...or full auto machine guns is absurd. They already misuse what they have...they cause more problems than they solve with those stupid tanks they've got courtesy of "Homeland Security" (and other government agencies that sound like Mussolininamed them)

    What "boxing match" are the police losing right now? What problem needs fixed, Rob? This is like the nonsense I hear every election: "who will grow the military?" No matter that we've already got the largest in the world occupying 140 countries...it needs to be BIGGER! Why? Well......BECAUSE!!!

    How aren't they well-armed enough again?







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    Tueller drill proves that a gun in the holster for even an individual who is competant enough to draw a pistol and shoot some what quickly is well over 21 feet of distance. that means if somebody is attacking you with a knife from a minimum distance of 21. Staying motionless and trying to draw your gun from a holster position and dispatching a threat before you are cut, or killed is impossible. Remember most people who go into a survival mode rely on gross motor skills and the mind can really only accomoplish one thing at a time. Draw a gun or Move, most people don't know to both when its the first time getting shot at.

    Most human beings run the 40 meter dash in about 5-6 seconds.

    40 meters=est 120 feet.I'm not even adding in the xtra 3 inches or whatever.

    So somebody who is running the 40 meter dash is averaging 24 feet per second. Thats distance crossed.

    The average person who carries a gun takes about 1.5 seconds to get the gun out of the holster and fire 1 shot unaimed, from a holster that has 0 retention.

    Now add stress and most police don't talk to people standing 24 feet away. They do it at conversation distance 5-6 feet. This distance doesn't come close to being the MINIMUM safe distance from standing with somebody holding a sharpened pencil. Not to mention most cops carry level 2 retention systems I think some are carrying Level 3. Which is absurd if you think about it. Now if the cops wearing a rain jacket or a overcoat adds even more time to his already limited draw. Again we are talking only about 1 shot from a pistols. If you read Cooper or Ayoob, Applegate, etc.... They all say that there is no Pistol, that is a good comprimise to carry adequate to stop a Man with one shot. So why not give them the appropriate tool/ equipment to due the job?

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    rob99vmi04 wrote:

    Tueller drill proves that a gun in the holster for even an individual who is competant enough to draw a pistol and shoot some what quickly is well over 21 feet of distance. that means if somebody is attacking you with a knife from a minimum distance of 21. Staying motionless and trying to draw your gun from a holster position and dispatching a threat before you are cut, or killed is impossible. Remember most people who go into a survival mode rely on gross motor skills and the mind can really only accomoplish one thing at a time. Draw a gun or Move, most people don't know to both when its the first time getting shot at.

    Most human beings run the 40 meter dash in about 5-6 seconds.

    40 meters=est 120 feet.I'm not even adding in the xtra 3 inches or whatever.

    So somebody who is running the 40 meter dash is averaging 24 feet per second. Thats distance crossed.

    The average person who carries a gun takes about 1.5 seconds to get the gun out of the holster and fire 1 shot unaimed, from a holster that has 0 retention.

    Now add stress and most police don't talk to people standing 24 feet away. They do it at conversation distance 5-6 feet. This distance doesn't come close to being the MINIMUM safe distance from standing with somebody holding a sharpened pencil. Not to mention most cops carry level 2 retention systems I think some are carrying Level 3. Which is absurd if you think about it. Now if the cops wearing a rain jacket or a overcoat adds even more time to his already limited draw. Again we are talking only about 1 shot from a pistols. If you read Cooper or Ayoob, Applegate, etc.... They all say that there is no Pistol, that is a good comprimise to carry adequate to stop a Man with one shot. So why not give them the appropriate tool/ equipment to due the job?
    Right, and having a MACHINE GUN will fix that how???? :quirky

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    Your picture of the Cop with the AR reflects a swat/srt team guy not your average beet cop.

    PS not to start a cop bashing thread or nothing, but every day I see LE from all differn't walks of agencies practice. Fairfax officers are pretty decent along with the sheriffs, but on accassion its apparent that an invidualofficer generally only shoots to qualify, and to him or her its a chore. I've seen a lot of security guards fail a very simple course of fire, and get fired. These are people carrying guns everyday.

    The agency I'm most impressed with shooting wise is FAM (Federal Air Marshalls) I personally haven't met one that is "bad shot" and I constantly see the same faces practicing and doing more than just STATIC training.

    Virginia State Police seems to have most of there heads screwed on real tight and most of them are very good shots.

    Loudon Sheriff's Pretty darn good with their HK's plus they have a Deputy who constantly works with new people on his off time.

    Arlington seems to be hiring alot of younger males straight out of the military, I think the other day I ask one for a drivers license thinking he was 15, but most of them are pretty decent.



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    ama-gi wrote:
    rob99vmi04 wrote:

    Tueller drill proves that a gun in the holster for even an individual who is competant enough to draw a pistol and shoot some what quickly is well over 21 feet of distance. that means if somebody is attacking you with a knife from a minimum distance of 21. Staying motionless and trying to draw your gun from a holster position and dispatching a threat before you are cut, or killed is impossible. Remember most people who go into a survival mode rely on gross motor skills and the mind can really only accomoplish one thing at a time. Draw a gun or Move, most people don't know to both when its the first time getting shot at.

    Most human beings run the 40 meter dash in about 5-6 seconds.

    40 meters=est 120 feet.I'm not even adding in the xtra 3 inches or whatever.

    So somebody who is running the 40 meter dash is averaging 24 feet per second. Thats distance crossed.

    The average person who carries a gun takes about 1.5 seconds to get the gun out of the holster and fire 1 shot unaimed, from a holster that has 0 retention.

    Now add stress and most police don't talk to people standing 24 feet away. They do it at conversation distance 5-6 feet. This distance doesn't come close to being the MINIMUM safe distance from standing with somebody holding a sharpened pencil. Not to mention most cops carry level 2 retention systems I think some are carrying Level 3. Which is absurd if you think about it. Now if the cops wearing a rain jacket or a overcoat adds even more time to his already limited draw. Again we are talking only about 1 shot from a pistols. If you read Cooper or Ayoob, Applegate, etc.... They all say that there is no Pistol, that is a good comprimise to carry adequate to stop a Man with one shot. So why not give them the appropriate tool/ equipment to due the job?
    Right, and having a MACHINE GUN will fix that how???? :quirky
    Probably cuts about 1 second on deploying said system do to only having to bring the gun up from a sling mount, Deletes the need for a holsterin your primary, gives the individual a longer sight radius= easier to make accurate shots reduction of callertal damage, 3 times better Balistics than a pistolto make a "one shot stop" ease of firing accelerated pairs.

    NEXT QUESTION?

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    On a strictly tactics standpoint I do not believe the individual officer needs more than a sidearm and a M4 in the trunk. If the S hits the F than its time for back up and a team of specifically trained people who spend the majority of their down time devoted to repeat and constant training. A individual officer has not the time nor the team to properly impliment much more than those items.

    I truly believe that some LEO's just like some firearm owners want to portray that rambo image who bursts in to some lair of villians and unleshes hell fire on them via a belt fed M60. It is impractical, unethical and unfundable to have each and every police officer trained to the level that small SWAT or CRT teams are. I think that the curriculum for training police officers needs some fine tuning in the area of team work and letting go.I fully relize thatnormal everyday situations for LEO's go from normal to explosive in seconds. But that is where you have to stop and relize than you are not trained in the areas needed to properly apprehend that suspect. At the end of the day it doesn't matter how many people you lock up, or how many you let get away. Going home is the number one priority and think many LEO's would do well to remember just that.

    Just my .02

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    Admit it,
    We could issue the police water pistols, and a few bad apples would abuse it.
    But in retrospect LEO and others are right, criminals have accsess to all sorts of weapons, the police should too.



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    LEO 229 wrote:
    rob99vmi04 wrote:
    UMMMMMM then we are way to PC... They do it in ISRAEL and in Germany, heck they carry sub-guns into bars to have a Beer.
    I hear you... But that would make us a police state.

    People fear the police will "take over" and the possession of a rifle or the constant carry of a MP5 while on duty would not be condoned!!

    It is just one additional tool they would have but the people would be waiting for the jack boots to arrive and be worn next.


    I don't know about Germany, but if Israel is used for an example, then it is the entirepopulation armed like that, not just the law enforcement over there. I would be happy with that.

    I don't care how American Law Enforcement is armed, only that they use is correctly. Keeping law enforcement from being heavy armed is the same concept that Gun Laws prevent criminals from getting guns and using them to commit crime. If LE is going to do something "wrong", doesn't matter how they are armed.

    Making the population just as responsible for their own safety as LE is; would easily prevent the police state scenario.


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    criminals have accsess to all sorts of weapons, the police should too.
    Cops have access to all sorts of weapons, the people should also.

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. LAB/NRA/GOP *******

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    AR/M4 as a primary weapon is ridiculous. Not practical and not needed. How many shootouts do you think the average cop engages in, in a career?
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    VAopencarry wrote:
    AR/M4 as a primary weapon is ridiculous.
    Come on. It's just another Anony Mouse stylin', profilin' with his "No fear" decals. There's another newbe here with a 40 mm forum. Apropos...

    I had a wonderful boss that complained that he had had to shut down two high tech industries, the other was IIRC RocketDyne. He told of doing the aerodynamics of 40 mm projectiles; they'd make a new shape and step out the back door and launch it down range, they were inert.

    And he displayed the patent papers for his throttle-able solid rocket motor.

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    One of the problems is that the LEOs won't police LEOs.
    Thin blue line. Most LEOs are good people. The few that are bad are usually protected by unions and good cops protect the bad cops based on the theory that they may be next.

    The standard of duty raises if the bad cops are removed from service.

    Who is to blame? All of us.

    How do we correct this? We start with the law makers. Quit making laws. Enough is enough. Laws on top of laws. No one can keep up. The cops or the citizen.

    I have a set of books that contain all of the federal laws (2000 addition). Stack all the books up and it is 35 feet tall. I also have all the federal laws that were in force in 1935. It's one book and it is 4 inches thick. What happened?

    The Justice Dept. did a study and tried to count all the federal crimes that are on the books, and they quit counting at 26,000 and they don't know how many more there are.

    Enough is enough.



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    color of law wrote:
    I have a set of books that contain all of the federal laws (2000 addition). Stack all the books up and it is 35 feet tall. I also have all the federal laws that were in force in 1935. It's one book and it is 4 inches thick. What happened?

    The Justice Dept. did a study and tried to count all the federal crimes that are on the books, and they quit counting at 26,000 and they don't know how many more there are.

    Enough is enough.
    Completely ridiculous, and 100% true. No one actually knows how many laws there are anymore (and this is only federal, not counting state and local). Literally NO ONE knows.

    When there are this many laws, it becomes impossible for a good person to know for sure that he isn't going to break one of them. When there are this many laws, it becomes impossible to respect the law, since it no longer has anything to do with right and wrong.

    Interestingly, there is ONE presidential candidate who's been talking about us having too many laws. But only one...hmmm.

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