sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
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LE Code of ethics
- Thread starter Trigger Dr
- Start date
+1
Jeff Hayes
Regular Member
CME welcome to the boards, glad you are here and a different perspective is always welcome as least in my world.
Being in Law Enforcement does not make you a good person or a bad person, like I said respect is earned not given or demanded.
There are some pretty strong opinions here so if someone disagrees with you dont take it personaly.
Now I have a question for you I am assuming that you mean seeing unlawful things when you say "If I see things being done by the police or any LE agency I always advise the people who to contact to make a report. I will advise my "higher ups" and I try and keep tabs on what is found out." Why would you not stop or at least personaly report an unlawful act by an officer? Please correct me if I am assuming too much here.
Being in Law Enforcement does not make you a good person or a bad person, like I said respect is earned not given or demanded.
There are some pretty strong opinions here so if someone disagrees with you dont take it personaly.
Now I have a question for you I am assuming that you mean seeing unlawful things when you say "If I see things being done by the police or any LE agency I always advise the people who to contact to make a report. I will advise my "higher ups" and I try and keep tabs on what is found out." Why would you not stop or at least personaly report an unlawful act by an officer? Please correct me if I am assuming too much here.
ManInBlack
Regular Member
I'm sorry, but your profession goes against the idea of a free society. If a person is a danger to others, he should be incarcerated or executed. If he is incarcerated, and no longer presents a danger to society, he should be released as a free and full citizen. If he is not safe to be released with all of his rights, then he should not be released at all.
If a person does not present a threat, but is placed on probation/parole with conditions, it can only be to extract money and/or subservience from him. We cannot have a free society with some citizens equipped with a full suite of rights and others having to "check in" to another human being.
You don't seem like a bad person, but through your occupation, you are engaged in immorality. I pray that you will one day find more honest employment.
EDIT: P.S.: Hermannr's comment wasn't addressed to you, but to "Realist" aka "state mouthpiece."
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gogodawgs
Campaign Veteran
No, as a member of society, I do not look to LE to protect me. I do look to our military to protect society from foreign invaders.
No, being a police officer is not a double edged sword. It is a volunteer position with the job conditions and demands well known.
No, you do not give 110%. There is no such thing, quit trying to inflate your position.
No, being a police officer is a volunteer position. I do not need to step into your shoes. I have a great deal of respect for LE and the job that they choose to do and agree that most LE are good people. However, safety is my responsibility not yours.
CEM
Regular Member
I'm going to have to disagree with this statement. Parole/probation is good. It does help many who might commit more crimes from doing so. Is it perfect, no. Should we have longer sentences for the worst of the worst, heck yes. There are child rapists who only do 6 months.
Money wise the state doesn't make money off those on parole. They have to pay court fines and most don't. I don't violate anyone just because they can't pay. People should have food, shelter, ect first. I've had people who complete parole tell me they stopped using drugs and feel I saved there lives. I've had people who went from being a burglar to finding full time work and having a good life.
As for the morality thing, I feel am a moral person and I am happy to do what I do. Do I feel like I'm better then anybody else, heck no. I'm just as fallible as anybody else.
I guess in the end we can disagree.
CEM
Regular Member
I agree. People do need to earn respect. I do hope though that people will give others a chance to earn respect. At least that's what I practice.
CEM
Regular Member
Thanks! I appreciate the dialog.
Reading back on the statement you are quoting from me, I see it is not very clear. I almost always see/hear what someone I supervise does after the fact. We don't investigate new crimes. How I learn about what happened if by reading reports, talking to officers, talking to clients (those I supervise), witnesses (if available), ect. If I saw something wrong happening first hand I would step in. Keeping any job isn't worth it if it means losing your soul, at least that's my belief.
If I just read a police report of course it would almost always look bad for the client. That's why I try to get all sides. And try to "read between the lines" as it were.
As for taking things personally, I don't. I just hope I can work with the members on this forum in regards to 2nd amendment rights, that's how I found this site to begin with and why I signed up.
sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
Please don't feel these as personal attacks, too many in LE professions who come to these boards in their love for their profession and other in their profession forget to put on their thick skin. Welcome to the boards, and expect that I am one of those you may have strong disagreements on, I am going to be upfront about that. I have a vary narrow definition of what Law is supposed to be in this country.
I do want to discuss the issue of what is 'moral' or not. To many by simply partaking in a system that in itself has done as much as it can to skirt the constitution and our liberties along with individual rights, you have become immoral.
Again this is not a personal attack but is something that varies by individual perceptions. Democrats who want to take property by force and distribute it to others don't see themselves as doing anything immoral. Yet those who continually are robbed by taxes view it differently. Republicans who support Bush and his Patriot Act that has run roughshod over our natural rights and the rule of law imposed on government, don't see the immorality of this, they only themselves as trying to protect the country. (which the tax payers are also again robbed by force to pay for)
Likewise there is a culture in law enforcement to overlook the "immoral" things done in their department many may rationalize that is done for the "greater good", I don't buy that argument and don't buy the bad apple argument. And if you want to know why, you can read my rant in another thread.
Again welcome aboard! I hope you are here to support OC and "individual" rights. (edit to ad I see you are for 2a rights from the post you posted while I was posting this :lol
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CEM
Regular Member
I don't believe I was saying you don't need/can protect your safety. If I did, that's not what I was trying to say. I hope everyone has the knowledge, tools, courage, ect to stand up and protect themselves and there loved ones. And I fully support the right to protect yourself.
LE jobs, as with any job, is voluntary. I don't believe everyone can do it (at least not well), just as there are jobs out there I couldn't do. Say a crab "fisherman" for example, that's nuts to me but wow do the people that go out there have a lot of guts.
As for the "shoes" comment, I was just using that because I try to look at all angles. Not trying to prop myself up or anything like that.
amzbrady
Regular Member
Granted it would be nicer for everyone if everyone followed the law, rules, and codes set forth, and if people dont agree with them or like them, there are proper processes to change them. I still am not sure how to find out which laws are ok to break and which ones are not, so I just follow them all. In that regard it would be nice if officers, enforced the law. I see laws being broken in front of officers and they ignore them. I see people driving while talking on cell phones, I see people jaywalk, I see people turn without turn signals, I see people turn and cross double yellow lines. I have seen all these things happen in front of officers repeatedly. If officers were to enforce ALL the laws, people would feel so lax about breaking them. Sad thing is except for the talking on a cell phone while driving, and jaywalking I have seen police do this as well. I had an officer pass me like I was sitting still while I was doing 30 in a 30MPH zone, and he stopped at lights, and zig zagged between traffic like their was a buy one get one free sale on crispy Cremes. He was not driving with his lights on. Shouldnt be any picking and choosing on laws. So basically the problems are on both sides, public and LEO.
ManInBlack
Regular Member
The length of sentences isn't really the point; in fact, given the government's history of deciding the penalties for various made-up "crimes" makes me extremely leery to call for harsher punishment. The point is the absolute absurdity that someone on parole, deemed by the government too dangerous to possess a firearm, is allowed to possess and drive around a one-and-a-half ton bullet (motor vehicle).
People who were put on probation or released into parole for made-up "crimes," such as drug possession, that do not harm any other persons or property, are routinely violated and sent back to prison. To deny this is also absurdity.
It is absolutely about money and control. Control over the poor individuals who are trapped in the system, money extorted from those of us in the productive sector to pay for it, and an easy way to swell the ranks of government workers, who then typically become a loyal constituency for statism. Until you find work in mutually-beneficial commerce, providing a desired product or service to those who aren't extorted to pay for it, please don't tell me how your government function isn't about money.
Citizen
Founder's Club Member
Ahhh. Warms the heart. There is hope for this world, yet.
MKEgal
Regular Member
I would neither like nor dislike "law enforcement" as a concept if the laws were just, fairly applied, & made sense (preventing harm).Realist0511 said:
Way too many don't.
And if LEOs did what they're supposed to (protecting society as a whole), I wouldn't have to worry about being directly helped.
I neither like nor dislike officers until/unless I either know them as people or they do something to me (good or bad).
(There are a couple exceptions for people who happen to be LEO but are fairly well-known as pro-citizen, pro-2A folks whom I've not had the pleasure of meeting. People like LawDog & Mas Ayoob.)
LOL!! Urban legend!CEM said:
Browse the stats available at http://www.bls.gov/iif/
(US Bureau of Labor Statistics: Injuries, Illnesses, & Fatalities Program),
then come back & tell us for which year(s) your assertion is true.
For extra credit, tell us which professions always appear in the top 10.
Since you're not talking about a law it's not required to do, but forum rule #5 (cite to authority) is helpful when making assertions too.
See pg. 19 of this PDF for the 2009 Top 10:
Fishers, loggers, pilots, farmers/ranchers, roofers, iron/steel workers, garbage collectors, truck drivers, construction, industrial machinery workers.
Using PDFs available here: http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshcfoi1.htm#rates
In 2009 there were 11 LEO fatalities, 14 for the postal service, 57 for fishing.
In 2008: 5, 20, & 46.
In 2007: 6, 14, & 36.
In 2006: 25, 21, & 48.
In 2005: 26, 20, & 47.
So in 3 of the last 5 years for which data is available, being a postal worker was more dangerous than being a police officer, at least when measured by the number of fatalities, & being a fisherman was much more dangerous.
I'm going to take a wild guess here, just based on common sense, & say that there are far fewer commercial fishermen than there are postal workers, & there are fewer of them than there are LEOs.
(It's tired, I'm late, not inclined to go groping after more stats tonight.)
So the rate (fatalities per 100K workers) would be much higher among fishermen than postal workers, which would be higher than LEOs.
Certainly looks that way from pg 19 of that PDF I cited above.
If someone is alarmed by my peaceful exercise of rights, it's their problem.
I do not (& should never be asked to) curtail my peaceful actions because of someone else's emotions.
If someone is upset upon seeing someone of a certain ethnic or religious group, is that their problem or the problem of the person they're observing? (Just seeing the person browing a bookstore or grocery, or walking along the street, for example, doing nothing different from anyone around them other than how they look or are dressed.)
Putting aside people who are physically unable to do anything to help themselves,
most other adults (those who are law-abiding) have the same basic options I do in re self-defense:
a) don't do anything
b) do nothing myself
c) use less-lethal tools
d) use a firearm
All have sub-options:
1) hope other citizens come to my aid
2) call police (does not apply to a)
If someone chooses to do nothing to help him/herself, why should other people (citizens or professionals) risk harm to help? Certainly as a rational adult they thought through the foreseeable consequences of their decision. Why should I override someone else's choice for their own life?
I think it's arrogant to refuse to help yourself (as many anti-rights people do) but expect professionals with the very tools they despise (guns) to come running when called.
I have a first aid kit to help during the time between "oh bleep" and an ambulance arriving.
I have a pistol for the time between "oh bleep" and the police arriving.
You'll find that most people here are quite well aware of local, state, & federal laws esp. pertaining to firearms, privacy, etc. Things that affect us every day.
And while there is often tolerance for an honest mistake (you match the description of a bank robber, so are given the 'dangerous felon' treatment, but it isn't really you),
there's little tolerance for arrogance or ignorance.
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1245A Defender
Regular Member
well, just Wow!
thank you mister 1st post.
dredging up a 3 and 1/2 yr old thread that is mostly supportive of our law enforcement officers,
only to tell us that the US verses THEM problem is all our fault.
I as a law abiding citizen do not have an us verses them problem.
I have an us verses criminals problem.
I do not need to walk in any bodys shoes or spend a day at their jobs to understand that they
just want to go home at the end of the day.
everybody I know wants to go home at the end of the day,
we all have loved ones and people that depend on us.
I know I should not and can not depend or expect the LEOs to protect or watch out for my safety.
I know that ONLY I can watch out and protect myself.
the only thing i can expect from the LEOs is that they will eventually come and draw
a chalk line, stretch some "do not cross tape", and take reports about the crime
that they failed to prevent from happening.
instead of posting your statist views in this thread, please comment about eric scott who was shot in the back as he left a costco in nevada.
please post your thoughts about officer birk who chased down and shot a deaf wood carver in the back on the streets of seattle.
please post your thoughts about one of our friends here who was proned out, cuffed, and stuffed in bellingham,
while lawfully filing a report at the police station, about his unlawful detainment in the city for his lawful carry of a firearm.
I will be the first to call you out!
I will be the first to predict you will not post again!
I will be the first to NOT welcome you to this forum!
I say good day!
thank you mister 1st post.
dredging up a 3 and 1/2 yr old thread that is mostly supportive of our law enforcement officers,
only to tell us that the US verses THEM problem is all our fault.
I as a law abiding citizen do not have an us verses them problem.
I have an us verses criminals problem.
I do not need to walk in any bodys shoes or spend a day at their jobs to understand that they
just want to go home at the end of the day.
everybody I know wants to go home at the end of the day,
we all have loved ones and people that depend on us.
I know I should not and can not depend or expect the LEOs to protect or watch out for my safety.
I know that ONLY I can watch out and protect myself.
the only thing i can expect from the LEOs is that they will eventually come and draw
a chalk line, stretch some "do not cross tape", and take reports about the crime
that they failed to prevent from happening.
instead of posting your statist views in this thread, please comment about eric scott who was shot in the back as he left a costco in nevada.
please post your thoughts about officer birk who chased down and shot a deaf wood carver in the back on the streets of seattle.
please post your thoughts about one of our friends here who was proned out, cuffed, and stuffed in bellingham,
while lawfully filing a report at the police station, about his unlawful detainment in the city for his lawful carry of a firearm.
I will be the first to call you out!
I will be the first to predict you will not post again!
I will be the first to NOT welcome you to this forum!
I say good day!
sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
Well put!
Jeff Hayes
Regular Member
Jeff Hayes
Regular Member
CEM
Regular Member
Please don't feel these as personal attacks, too many in LE professions who come to these boards in their love for their profession and other in their profession forget to put on their thick skin. Welcome to the boards, and expect that I am one of those you may have strong disagreements on, I am going to be upfront about that. I have a vary narrow definition of what Law is supposed to be in this country.
I do want to discuss the issue of what is 'moral' or not. To many by simply partaking in a system that in itself has done as much as it can to skirt the constitution and our liberties along with individual rights, you have become immoral.
Again this is not a personal attack but is something that varies by individual perceptions. Democrats who want to take property by force and distribute it to others don't see themselves as doing anything immoral. Yet those who continually are robbed by taxes view it differently. Republicans who support Bush and his Patriot Act that has run roughshod over our natural rights and the rule of law imposed on government, don't see the immorality of this, they only themselves as trying to protect the country. (which the tax payers are also again robbed by force to pay for)
Likewise there is a culture in law enforcement to overlook the "immoral" things done in their department many may rationalize that is done for the "greater good", I don't buy that argument and don't buy the bad apple argument. And if you want to know why, you can read my rant in another thread.
Again welcome aboard! I hope you are here to support OC and "individual" rights. (edit to ad I see you are for 2a rights from the post you posted while I was posting this :lol
Disagreements and debates are almost always a good thing. A lot of great ideas and solutions have come from people having open dialogs, ect.
I'm sure we are going to disagree on a lot. I've read some of your other posts, mainly because I saw you live up in Whatcom County. I lived there for 4 years and I loved it. I want to move back someday. Great parks. Try to drive up for a visit at least a few times a year.
I saw what happened between you and Bellingham PD. That wasn't right at all and it's wrong/disappointing that happened.
Thanks again for the welcome!
Once I read a bunch of codes, oaths and creeds from different professions. Then I read stories about the same professions and the widespread misuse/abuse, malpractice, fraud, ethic violations, crimes of many sorts that contradicted. It became evident that these devices were merely feel good measures, written to give those who need to trust the profession, and the services offered, a promised false sense of “I/we matter”, or can trust those in charge”.
Often they are not even written by those in the profession, but by companies hired, who specialized and profit from developing others a code, creed or oath. It’s impossible for any organization to think everyone with-in is a model employee who lives, eats and sleeps the code. Codes, creeds and oaths do serve well in establishing who’s at fault; not the organization, because the entity maintains strict adherence, one who falters is an individual, non-representative of the whole. You buy that? I don’t.
Don’t get caught up in codes, creeds and oaths, while they do look good, they do not truly represent. Don’t they also take an Oath in Congress? That one looks real pretty on paper! Hell, the President isn’t even abiding by his oath!
Often they are not even written by those in the profession, but by companies hired, who specialized and profit from developing others a code, creed or oath. It’s impossible for any organization to think everyone with-in is a model employee who lives, eats and sleeps the code. Codes, creeds and oaths do serve well in establishing who’s at fault; not the organization, because the entity maintains strict adherence, one who falters is an individual, non-representative of the whole. You buy that? I don’t.
Don’t get caught up in codes, creeds and oaths, while they do look good, they do not truly represent. Don’t they also take an Oath in Congress? That one looks real pretty on paper! Hell, the President isn’t even abiding by his oath!
Dave_pro2a
Regular Member
SFW, we should pansy about protecting our Rights from an inherently corrupt system because they might use our political activity against us?
BS. That's a losing proposition.
Do nothing = lose
Be super duper polite = lose
Be agitators = lose
Better to go down fighting* imho
*via non-violent, and fully legal means. Don't want any cyber stalking charges filed against me by my local popo because they got their skirts ruffled by my words.