Giving name/ID card to Police?

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Hmmm, Hiibel is a SCOTUS decision?? And Wisconsin statutes are at issue. How does Hiibel affect/effect Wisc. Statutes?

And our angst is moot if Good Citizens excuse the cops for an unlawful stop in exchange for not being cited.

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PK can you weigh in on this subject, while not providing legal advice. What measures does your department take regarding asking for names and identification?

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does identification requireonly giving your name, or does it also require you to present some id card to prove you are telling the truth?

if it only requires identifying one's self, perhaps printing up a business card with the bare minimum data on it is in order. then you would not even need to speak.

LAC's really need to start exercising their rights not to be hassled by government agentsunless there actually is some reasonable cause to do so. And they ought to scream bloody murder after the fact when they are hassled without any reasonable cause. Enough irate calls to one's legislators, city councilmen, etc., and government agents will eventually get the idea.

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ilbob wrote:

does identification requireonly giving your name, or does it also require you to present some id card to prove you are telling the truth?

if it only requires identifying one's self, perhaps printing up a business card with the bare minimum data on it is in order. then you would not even need to speak.

Click to expand...

Here is the summary of what we have found in this thread.

Per 968.24 with case law footnotes:
I interpret that if a police officer asks for your identification, in order to lawfully decline you must ask him if you are a suspect in a specific crime. If he says no, then you do not violate this statute by not giving him identification. (State vs. Griffith, 2000). If anybody else comes across something regarding identification specifically please post it.

However, only if you are being detained (temporary questioning without arrest as the title) you must give him your name or face criminal penalites. Criminal penalties here is not percisely defined, though you cannot be charged with obstruction (see next...). (Hiibel vs. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, 2004)

Per 946.41 with case law footnotes:
You cannot be arrested specifically for obstruction for not giving a Police officer your name. (Henes vs. Morrissey 1995). This is good since this is a Class A Mis.

Based on the differentiation in the statues of "identification" and "name" I conclude that these are separate things. Note the notes in the statute do not require you to give your address or county of residence!

So based on the above information if you are being detained, you are required to give your name, but nothing else! If you are OC'ing then you are likely being detained if a Police officer initiates contact. You can test this by asking if you are free to go.

PK can you weigh in on this....how does your department generally handle the intricacies of these laws?

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Chronology

1993 - last amendment to 946.41 except for 2001

1993 - last amendment to 968.24

1995 - Henes v. Morrissey

2001 - last amendment to 946.41; however not relevant to this question

2004 - Hiibel v. Sixth...

Summer 2004 - MPD Legal Update that was quoted

Analysis

1. Hiibel permits but does not require a state to have a law like Nevada's. In other words, such a statute is not violative of the U.S. Constitution. Such a statute may be a violation of a state constitution. In Wisconsin, this has not be definitively answered because there is no equivalent state law. If such comes into existence then the Wisconsin Supreme Court would probably rule on the (state) constitutionality.

2. WSC, which is the final arbiter of state law said in Henes that

No law allows officers to arrest for obstruction on a person’s refusal to give his or her name. Mere silence is insufficient to constitute obstruction. Henes v. Morrissey, 194 Wis. 2d 339, 533 N.W.2d 802 (1995).

Presumably the WSC is aware of all state statutes. If 968.24 had be relevant, they would have said so. As pointed out, that statute permits a LEO "to demand" but says nothing about the citizen's obligation to provide or any penalties for failing to do so. Thus, as the MPD materials states, unless and until there is additional legislation, Hiibel doesn't mean squat in Wisconsin. MPD does misstep in that, as mentioned, Hiibel is a decision based upon the U.S. Constitution. Even if such a law is passed it may fail the test of the Wisconsin state constitution. The MPD apparently doesn't understand this distinction. (It is similar to the Kelo decision, which simply said that the U.S. Constitution was not offended by the actions of the local government. In fact, many states are passing legislation or constitutional amendments to neutralize Kelo.)

Remember that all of these issues take place in the context of a Terry Stop, whether or not the encounter is specifically labeled as such.

With regard to frisking for weapons, the same standard applies but as to the reasonable suspicion must be that the citizen is armed and dangerous. In a place where CC is always illegal, RS of being armed is enough. But that would apply only in situations where concealed carry is lawful. Wisconsin is somewhat muddled now because although CC is generally unlawful, Hamdan provides an exception. Of course, the only way to demonstrate falling under the exception is through a trial. I don't think a LEO, even if he was inclined to do so, is permitted to run the Hamdan tests and come to a conclusion. But please feel free to try it. If anybody feels I have erred in my analysis, please post a (polite, thoughtful) reply.

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[align=left]To: LAW-ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS: [print clearly][/align]
[align=left]My name: __________________________________________________[/align]
[align=left]My address: ________________________________________________[/align]
[align=left]__________________________________________________________[/align]
[align=left]My date of birth: _____________________________________________[/align]
[align=left]FORMAL LEGAL NOTICE UNDER THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION, per ACLU:[/align]
[align=left]1) I do not wish to answer any questions without first speaking to an Attorney.[/align]
[align=left]2) I do not consent to any search whatsoever; including but not limited to a search of my home,[/align]
[align=left]my car, my baggage or my person.[/align]
[align=left]3) I do not consent to being in a line-up or a show-up, or any display of any type.[/align]
[align=left]4) I do not and will not waive any of my Constitutional Rights whatsoever.[/align]
[align=left]---------------------------(cut)-------------------------------[/align]
[align=left]Cut out or copy “rights” card, above. Fill in name, address and date of birth; fold and put in wallet. If stopped,[/align]
[align=left]present card to police, and then make no other statements.[/align]
[align=left]WHAT TO DO WHEN STOPPED BY THE POLICE:[/align]
[align=left]• Stay calm and keep your hands where the police can see them.[/align]
[align=left]• Don’t argue, complain, bad-mouth or resist arrest, even if the police are unreasonable; it will only make[/align]
[align=left]your situation worse.[/align]
[align=left]• Hand them the “Rights” card, above. Otherwise say, “I have nothing to say”; then make no[/align]
[align=left]statements or comments.[/align]
[align=left]• Remember anything you say can and will be used against you, even if officers have not read you the[/align]
[align=left]“Miranda Rights”![/align]
[align=left]• Remember police badge numbers and patrol car numbers. Ask to see police identification.[/align]
[align=left]• If not in custody, write down everything that happened, ASAP.[/align]
[align=left]• Keep a small tape recorder handy to record any conversations with the police. This keeps the police[/align]
[align=left]honest in court.[/align]
[align=left]• Try to find witnesses, get their names and phone numbers.[/align]
[align=left]• If you are injured, seek medical attention, but also get photographs of the injuries, ASAP.[/align]
[align=left]• If arrested, ask for a lawyer immediately.[/align]
[align=left]1) You don’t have to answer a police officer’s questions, but you must show your license, registration and[/align]
[align=left]insurance when stopped in a car. In other situations, you can’t legally be arrested for refusing to identify[/align]
[align=left]yourself to an officer.[/align]
[align=left]2) You don’t have to consent to any search of your person, your car or your house— and therefore you[/align]
[align=left]should not consent. If the police say they have a warrant, ask to see it. Still; do not consent to a search[/align]
[align=left]even if they have a warrant, make them rely on the warrant; warrants can be defective.[/align]
[align=left]3) You can be arrested for obstructing or interfering w/police.[/align]
[align=left]IF YOU ARE STOPPED FOR QUESTIONING:[/align]
[align=left]1) It’s not a crime to refuse to answer questions. You can’t be arrested merely for refusing to identify[/align]
[align=left]yourself on the street. You can hand them your “Rights” card and say nothing. If in a car you must[/align]
[align=left]supply license, registration and proof of insurance.[/align]
[align=left]2) Police may stop and detain you only if they have a reasonable suspicion that you have committed, are[/align]
[align=left]committing or are about to commit a crime.[/align]
[align=left]3) If police have a reasonable suspicion to believe you have a weapon they may perform a frisk and pat[/align]
[align=left]down your clothing. Don’t physically resist, but you can make it clear you don’t consent to such a[/align]
[align=left]search or any further search.[/align]
[align=left]4) You can ask if you are under arrest. If you are, you have a right to know, and a right to know why.[/align]
[align=left]IF YOU ARE STOPPED IN YOUR CAR:[/align]
[align=left]1) Upon request, show driver’s license, registration, and proof of insurance. In certain cases, your car can[/align]
[align=left]be searched without a warrant as long as the police have probable cause. To protect yourself, you[/align]
[align=left]should make it clear that you do not consent to any search. It is not legal for the police to arrest you[/align]
[align=left]simply for refusing to consent to a search.[/align]
[align=left]2) If you’re given a ticket, you can be arrested for refusing to sign it. If you sign, you can still fight the[/align]
[align=left]charge in court.[/align]
[align=left]3) If you’re suspected of drunk driving and refuse to take a breath, urine or blood test, your license may be[/align]
[align=left]suspended and your car taken away. If possible, insist on a blood test; it is harder to tamper with, it is[/align]
[align=left]easier to challenge in court, and usually takes longer to administer— sometimes you must go to a hospital[/align]
[align=left]and wait hours for a doctor or nurse.[/align]
[align=left]IF THE POLICE COME TO Y0UR HOME:[/align]
[align=left]1) Don’t admit the police without a warrant signed by a judge. Block the door and don’t let them squeeze[/align]
[align=left]past.[/align]
[align=left]2) However, in emergency situations (e.g., person screaming, chasing a suspect) police are allowed to enter[/align]
[align=left]and search your home without a warrant.[/align]
[align=left]3) If you are arrested in your home or office, police can search you and the area within your reach, and[/align]
[align=left]can also search any criminal items or activity in plain view.[/align]
[align=left]IF ARRESTED OR TAKEN TO A POLICE STATION:[/align]
[align=left]1) You have the right to remain silent and/or to talk to a lawyer before you talk to the police. Tell the police[/align]
[align=left]you will not answer any questions or that you will not answer questions without a lawyer. Then don’t[/align]
[align=left]answer questions![/align]
[align=left]2) If you have a lawyer, ask to see him immediately. If you can’t afford a lawyer, you have a right to a free[/align]
[align=left]one once your case goes to court. You can ask the police how a lawyer can be contacted. Don’t say[/align]
[align=left]anything else about your case without a lawyer.[/align]
[align=left]3) Within a reasonable time after your arrest or booking, you can ask the police to contact a family member[/align]
[align=left]or friend. If you are permitted to make a phone call, be aware anything you say may be recorded or[/align]
[align=left]listened to! Be very careful of what you say and never talk about the facts of your case over the phone.[/align]
[align=left]4) Sometimes you can be released without bail, or have bail lowered. You must be taken before the judge[/align]
[align=left]within 24 hours after your arrest.[/align]

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The stop and identify laws in Wisconsin are so conditional and confused in law that they are hardly worth the effort to discuss them. The stop and identify requirements depend on the particular demographics. If you are ambulatory and are stopped you are required only to give your name and address. However that is even cloudy because if you happen to be wanted for a crime giving your name may be self-incriminating although some courts have ruled that you give your name and address is a reasonable exception to the 5th amendment. If you happen to be operating a motor vehicle and are stopped ss 343.18 requires that you have in possession and present your operator license to the officer. If you are participating in the activity of hunting, fishing, trapping and are stopped by a game warden you are required to present the license that authorizes you to do so. In any of these situations you may be in possession of a firearm. So what are the "stop and identify laws in Wisconsin? Depends.

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And thus moot for vagueness. I doubt that an influential argument any more that it is in the matter of WI gun laws or disorderly conduct laws.