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Thread: What Would OCDO'ers do

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    It's dark, not dusk, dark, night time. You have two dogs your walking next to a four lane road. You have whatever it is you carry on a daily basis - be it just a gun or more (mace, flashlight etc). A larger dog of undeterminable breed (appears to be a pitbull but your unsure) starts running across the four lane road at you and your dogs - you hold a leash in each hand as you realize the dog is coming for you. The dog gets across the road, is barking at 20 feet out.

    What do you do at this point as the dog closes in on you as you (or your dogs) appear to be it's target?

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    bohdi wrote:
    It's dark, not dusk, dark, night time. You have two dogs your walking next to a four lane road. You have whatever it is you carry on a daily basis - be it just a gun or more (mace, flashlight etc). A larger dog of undeterminable breed (appears to be a pitbull but your unsure) starts running across the four lane road at you and your dogs - you hold a leash in each hand as you realize the dog is coming for you. The dog gets across the road, is barking at 20 feet out.

    What do you do at this point as the dog closes in on you as you (or your dogs) appear to be it's target?

    I think one of the liabilities is that you won't be able to "read" the dog in the dark the same way you would in daylight. Maybe a good reason not to walk the dogs far at night.

    First, what I usually do when a dog approaches barking: yell at it, wave arms, aggressive feints, etc.

    If it keeps coming, shorten the leashes into one hand and get ready to kick. Try kicking, or apply mace, which ought to be real fun with two barking dogs tugging at leashes in one hand.

    Only if it seemed truly bent on tearing flesh would I selecta potentially dog-lethal option.

    All dogs I've met when I was walking or running were scared away by hostile behavior from me. The one that came closest to getting his teeth in me ran when I aimed a kick at him--he danced, I missed.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    I'd call 911, the police will surely arrive in time to stop a vicious attack.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Citizen wrote:
    bohdi wrote:
    It's dark, not dusk, dark, night time. You have two dogs your walking next to a four lane road. You have whatever it is you carry on a daily basis - be it just a gun or more (mace, flashlight etc). A larger dog of undeterminable breed (appears to be a pitbull but your unsure) starts running across the four lane road at you and your dogs - you hold a leash in each hand as you realize the dog is coming for you. The dog gets across the road, is barking at 20 feet out.

    What do you do at this point as the dog closes in on you as you (or your dogs) appear to be it's target?

    I think one of the liabilities is that you won't be able to "read" the dog in the dark the same way you would in daylight. Maybe a good reason not to walk the dogs far at night.

    First, what I usually do when a dog approaches barking: yell at it, wave arms, aggressive feints, etc.

    If it keeps coming, shorten the leashes into one hand and get ready to kick. Try kicking, or apply mace, which ought to be real fun with two barking dogs tugging at leashes in one hand.

    Only if it seemed truly bent on tearing flesh would I selecta potentially dog-lethal option.

    All dogs I've met when I was walking or running were scared away by hostile behavior from me. The one that came closest to getting his teeth in me ran when I aimed a kick at him--he danced, I missed.

    Your lucky enough to kick it in the head and it pauses. What do you do next now that you've bought a few seconds?


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    VAopencarry wrote:
    I'd call 911, the police will surely arrive in time to stop a vicious attack.
    Sure you do

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    bohdi wrote:
    Your lucky enough to kick it in the head and it pauses. What do you do next now that you've bought a few seconds?
    Like I said, every aggressive dog I've ever met retreated without me resorting to dog-lethal force.

    Of course, there is a reason mail men carry mace. Some dogs actually do bite.

    I'll keep trying the non-lethal options until its clear they aren't going to work. Like I said, if it seems bent on genuinely tearing flesh, then I'll choose something more serious.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    First, what I usually do when a dog approaches barking: yell at it, wave arms, aggressive feints, etc.

    If it keeps coming, shorten the leashes into one hand and get ready to kick. Try kicking, or apply mace, which ought to be real fun with two barking dogs tugging at leashes in one hand.

    Only if it seemed truly bent on tearing flesh would I selecta potentially dog-lethal option.

    All dogs I've met when I was walking or running were scared away by hostile behavior from me. The one that came closest to getting his teeth in me ran when I aimed a kick at him--he danced, I missed.

    I agree that it is good to take some action to be assertive: shout command to stop /out, raise arms, point, etc. Stand tall and look right at the dog. Warn him. Show some confidence.

    Unless it was a big dog approaching, say, over 60 lbs, I don't see pulling out a gun on spec. I would be happy to try to pick up a rock or a stick and fling it at the dog if he got too close. But, if there isno time to do that, I would definitely try to kick it very hard. (BTW, dngreer did a very good job of kicking his attacking dog in the head--without getting bit. That's hard to do.)

    If I pull out a gun for an animal, it's to shoot to kill. I don't believe in the absurd idea that drawing a gun will faze a dog because he will be "gun shy." That's silly. If that were the case, all one would have to do is make a gun with your hand and point that at the pooch. The dog doesn't know what "Stop or I'll shoot you with this .357 magnum!" means. I can see shooting a dog who is big and is attacking--but there is no need to drawuntil it is time to shoot and killthe pooch.

    I've been approached by dogs dozens of times while running and biking. Sometimes strays, sometime offleash dogs ("Snickers! Come back! Snickersssssss!). I'm not impressed with the ability of almost all dogs to be able to cause me to be in reasonable fear ofdeath or severe bodily injury. They're just dogs.

    Did get bit once, though. Ouch.

    But I wasn't in fear of my life. I turned around and yelled at the biter and she ran away like she didn't want no part of me no more. Bitch. I don't carry when I run or bike anyway.


    This is a good subject. It stimulates me to announce a new Postulate.

    HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense Against Dogs

    It is not a good strategy to try to persuade a dog not to attack or biteyou simply because you have a gun (loaded or unloaded) in your hand and you say "Stop or I'll shoot!" Dogs don't understand English. If he is attacking youand you are reasonably in fear of your life--just shoot the pooch.

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    If you have, say, a pair of Tibetan Mastiffs or other gigantic dogs, would an option be to just sic them on the attacking dog? :?

    In all seriousness, though, from my experience as a mailman, if I have a dog running at me, I just keep walking and ignore it. Never had the situation escalate past that...

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    HankT wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    First, what I usually do when a dog approaches barking: yell at it, wave arms, aggressive feints, etc.

    If it keeps coming, shorten the leashes into one hand and get ready to kick. Try kicking, or apply mace, which ought to be real fun with two barking dogs tugging at leashes in one hand.

    Only if it seemed truly bent on tearing flesh would I selecta potentially dog-lethal option.

    All dogs I've met when I was walking or running were scared away by hostile behavior from me. The one that came closest to getting his teeth in me ran when I aimed a kick at him--he danced, I missed.

    I agree that it is good to take some action to be assertive: shout command to stop /out, raise arms, point, etc. Stand tall and look right at the dog. Warn him. Show some confidence.

    Unless it was a big dog approaching, say, over 60 lbs, I don't see pulling out a gun on spec. I would be happy to try to pick up a rock or a stick and fling it at the dog if he got too close. But, if there isno time to do that, I would definitely try to kick it very hard. (BTW, dngreer did a very good job of kicking his attacking dog in the head--without getting bit. That's hard to do.)

    If I pull out a gun for an animal, it's to shoot to kill. I don't believe in the absurd idea that drawing a gun will faze a dog because he will be "gun shy." That's silly. If that were the case, all one would have to do is make a gun with your hand and point that at the pooch. The dog doesn't know what "Stop or I'll shoot you with this .357 magnum!" means. I can see shooting a dog who is big and is attacking--but there is no need to drawuntil it is time to shoot and killthe pooch.

    I've been approached by dogs dozens of times while running and biking. Sometimes strays, sometime offleash dogs ("Snickers! Come back! Snickersssssss!). I'm not impressed with the ability of almost all dogs to be able to cause me to be in reasonable fear ofdeath or severe bodily injury. They're just dogs.

    Did get bit once, though. Ouch.

    But I wasn't in fear of my life. I turned around and yelled at the biter and she ran away like she didn't want no part of me no more. Bitch. I don't carry when I run or bike anyway.


    This is a good subject. It stimulates me to announce a new Postulate.

    HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense Against Dogs

    It is not a good strategy to try to persuade a dog not to attack or biteyou simply because you have a gun (loaded or unloaded) in your hand and you say "Stop or I'll shoot!" Dogs don't understand English. If he is attacking youand you are reasonably in fear of your life--just shoot the pooch.
    I pose the same question to you Hank. Your lucky enough to kick it in the head and it pauses. What do you do next now that you've bought a few seconds? To clarify, dog isn't running away, dog isn't growling at you now, it's just paused from moving foward to you at a run like it was. Do you give it another boot to the head or try something else?

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    If you have, say, a pair of Tibetan Mastiffs or other gigantic dogs, would an option be to just sic them on the attacking dog? :?

    In all seriousness, though, from my experience as a mailman, if I have a dog running at me, I just keep walking and ignore it. Never had the situation escalate past that...
    I doubt I'd be worried about any dog if I had A Mastiff of any flavor with me, let alone two. Anything that was bred to take down bears (and war) is okay in my book. Wish I had one but it will probably be a few years before I can pull that off.

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    Don't have two dogs and the one Ihave isn't a Mastiff or LARGE dog.
    Never been scared of being severelyhurt by a dog and I've been bit.

    Forceful commands usually work but a few times a kick was needed.
    I wouldn't let my dog off leash to fend off a dog attack in a busy area, however he can handle most on leash.

    I have drawn on a dog (I was CC'ing, OC wasn't a option)actually a group of stray/feral andI did shoot one (10mm 155gr jhp vs 55-70lb k9) I was in a rural area, had two puppies to worry about, the aggressor died, the others ran off, AC was alerted.

    I carry alternative means of defense, my gun wouldn't be my go to weapon for a single dog unless my children are present then all bets are off, dog gets shot if commands don't work.

    In your "what if" the dog paused after being kicked, a forceful command would then be given as I scan for a owner, if owner is located choice words would (have) follow.

    If no owner and the dog is just sitting/standing(barking) there not attacking I would slowly leave the area while keeping a eye on the dog giving commands such as sit/stay.

    My B"n"L is a mailmanhas been bitten several times and his Post Master doesn't allow them to carry spray:?


    EDIT:
    SNIP/EDIT:
    Anything that was breed to take down bears/bulls and men wearing armouris okay in my book.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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    HankT said:
    If I pull out a gun for an animal, it's to shoot to kill. I don't believe in the absurd idea that drawing a gun will faze a dog because he will be "gun shy." That's silly. If that were the case, all one would have to do is make a gun with your hand and point that at the pooch. The dog doesn't know what "Stop or I'll shoot you with this .357 magnum!" means. I can see shooting a dog who is big and is attacking--but there is no need to drawuntil it is time to shoot and killthe pooch.


    That is not true. I have had an encounter with a ferrel dog, that was barking and running at me to attack me. I pointed the gun at the dog, and it immediately stopped pursuing me. Did it understand what a gun was and how it operated? No. What it understood was my body language. Dogs communicate with body language. It saw that I was not running from it, and had turned to confront it with confidence. It also saw that I was holding something (it could have been anything), and associated that with my confident body language. This lead the dog to conclude that whatever I was holding had the ability to cause more harm to the dog than I believedthedogcould cause to me. I stood my ground with confidence, and the dog took that as a sign of me being more powerful than him. The dog associates my confidence with what is in my hand, and it associates my stance and the fact that I am standing my groud with an ability to confront the level of threat he is providing with an equal or greater threat. Dogs can read body language better than you or I can, because that is how they communicate.

    It is similar to a spider or other bug. You don't have to understand how that bug works to know when it has entered it's "fight stance". A spider uses it's body language, by raising it's front legs and getting into a strike stance, to try and stop you from attacking it. A rattlesnake does the same thing. Pulling a gun and standing your ground is the same thing. It's extreme body language that says "I can hurt you more than you can hurt me". Now if you had pulled the gun, but continued to run, and not shown any confidence, the dog would likely continue to pursue you, unaware of the danger, because you have not expressed your superiority through body language.


    ETA:
    As a side note, this is why some people claim that a dog knows when someone is carrying a gun and acts differently (sometimes agressively in defense of their owner) toward that person. A dog doesn't have X-Ray vision, and doesn't know to look for printing. What a dog recognizes is a difference in body language and the way that you carry yourself. If you carry yourself nervously or like a badass that can kill anything that moves, the dog notices this and wants you to stay the hell away from his master.

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    Agent19 wrote:
    EDIT:
    SNIP/EDIT:
    Anything that was breed to take down bears/bulls and men wearing armouris okay in my book.
    Thanks, the Jim Beam wastyping for me last night, lol.

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    State Researcher dng's Avatar
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    bohdi wrote:
    It's dark, not dusk, dark, night time. You have two dogs your walking next to a four lane road. You have whatever it is you carry on a daily basis - be it just a gun or more (mace, flashlight etc). A larger dog of undeterminable breed (appears to be a pitbull but your unsure) starts running across the four lane road at you and your dogs - you hold a leash in each hand as you realize the dog is coming for you. The dog gets across the road, is barking at 20 feet out.

    What do you do at this point as the dog closes in on you as you (or your dogs) appear to be it's target?

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    VAopencarry wrote:
    I'd call 911, the police will surely arrive in time to stop a vicious attack.




    Tarzan

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    If you have, say, a pair of Tibetan Mastiffs or other gigantic dogs, would an option be to just sic them on the attacking dog? :?
    Yea your dogs gotta eat don't they.

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    expvideo wrote:
    HankT said: .....If I pull out a gun for an animal, it's to shoot to kill. I don't believe in the absurd idea that drawing a gun will faze a dog because he will be "gun shy." That's silly. If that were the case, all one would have to do is make a gun with your hand and point that at the pooch. The dog doesn't know what "Stop or I'll shoot you with this .357 magnum!" means. I can see shooting a dog who is big and is attacking--but there is no need to drawuntil it is time to shoot and killthe pooch.



    That is not true. I have had an encounter with a ferrel dog, that was barking and running at me to attack me. I pointed the gun at the dog, and it immediately stopped pursuing me........
    I am glad you found the one dog who ran from a gun.....Smart dog, BUT if I pull a gun on man or dog, I shoot. I just DON"T pull it unless I feel that I need to shoot.

    I have had the scenario happen to me except I had only one dog on a leash.

    I controlled my dog and then put my hand on the handle of my gun, ready to pull and shoot.

    I first controlled my dog so that even if he attacked, my dog was under control so that I could get a clean shot.

    In my case the aggressive dog stopped inches from mine and did not engage my dog. He was quickly followed by his master and taken away.

    I did not pull, but if I had pulled I would have shot, master or no.

    There are so many variables, each of us has to be ready, but there is not an exact right answer.




    Tarzan

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    tarzan1888 wrote:
    There are so many variables, each of us has to be ready, but there is not an exact right answer.




    Tarzan
    Agreed. Just thought I'd see what people would say/do given the information provided, and role play it from there.

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    bohdi wrote:
    tarzan1888 wrote:
    There are so many variables, each of us has to be ready, but there is not an exact right answer.




    Tarzan
    Agreed. Just thought I'd see what people would say/do given the information provided, and role play it from there.
    I understand and it got me thinking.........



    Tarzan

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    tarzan1888 wrote:
    I am glad you found the one dog who ran from a gun.....Smart dog, BUT if I pull a gun on man or dog, I shoot.
    You completely missed my point. He didn't run from my gun, he ran from me. That was my point. No, dogs don't know what the heck it is in your hand that you are pointing at them. They just know that you are confident in it's ability to do more harm to them than they can do to you, and that makes them think that you might be more dangerous than they had predicted.

    And what are you saying? That when the perp sees you reaching for a gun and turns to run, or while you are lining up your sights he drops his weapon, or the dog stops attacking, you are going to just unload on him anyway, since you pulled it, afterall.

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    expvideo wrote:
    You completely missed my point. He didn't run from my gun, he ran from me.

    Got it. Under my guidelines I don't pull and shoot.



    expvideo wrote:
    And what are you saying? That when the perp sees you reaching for a gun and turns to run, or while you are lining up your sights he drops his weapon, or the dog stops attacking, you are going to just unload on him anyway, since you pulled it, afterall.
    You missed my point

    It is one action with me that I practice, practice practice. I pull and fire. I hit what I am looking at. To give you and idea on one occasion I was walking through a field and kept scarring up grouse. I decided to practice. A grouse flew and I pulled and fired, hitting the grouse in the air with my 1911 A1.

    If I fear for my life and I reach for my gun there is no more thought, I pull and fire.

    ALL THE THOUGHT HAPPENS BEFORE I PULL AND FIRE.

    If he is not a threat I don't pull and fire, if I can retreat I don't pull and fire, If he sees my gun or me starting to reach for it and runs or drops his gun what ever, I don't pull and fire.

    He who hesitates is lost....he who second guesses is lost.

    If a bad guy decides to accost me or mine, sufficient to cause me or mine to fear for lives then he had better change his mind fast.



    Tarzan

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    tarzan1888 wrote:
    expvideo wrote:
    You completely missed my point. He didn't run from my gun, he ran from me.

    Got it. Under my guidelines I don't pull and shoot.



    expvideo wrote:
    And what are you saying? That when the perp sees you reaching for a gun and turns to run, or while you are lining up your sights he drops his weapon, or the dog stops attacking, you are going to just unload on him anyway, since you pulled it, afterall.
    You missed my point

    It is one action with my that I practice, practice practice. I pull and fire. I hit what I am looking at. To give you and idea on one occasion I was walking through a field and kept scarring up grouse. I decided to practice. A grouse flew and I pulled and fired, hitting the grouse in the air with my 1911 A1.

    If I fear for my life and I reach for my gun there is no more thought, I pull and fire.

    ALL THE THOUGHT HAPPENS BEFORE I PULL AND FIRE.

    If he is not a threat I don't pull and fire, if I can retreat I don't pull and fire, If he sees my gun or me starting to reach for it and runs or drops his gun what ever, I don't pull and fire.

    He who hesitates is lost....he who second guesses is lost.

    If a bad guy decides to accost me or mine, sufficient to cause me or mine to fear for lives then he had better change his mind fast.



    Tarzan
    See I completely agree with you, and I practice the same principle, but what you have to understand is that even if your pulling and firing motion takes only a second, the situation can change before the gun has risen to the point of firing. I don't pull my gun without intending to fire it either, but the situation can change drastically in that second. I agree that pulling the gun to try to de-escalate the problem is generally not a good practice and hesitation can get you killed. What I am saying is that if the dog (or person) has immediately stopped being a threat to you before your sights are lined up, you don't have to complete the draw-and-fire action.

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    I guess my point would be better made with a hypothetical. Let's say it takes you only 1 second to draw, aim and fire your gun. Let's also say that I am running at you with a crowbar, and you have every reason to fear for your life. As I see you reach back to grab your gun, I drop the crowbar and throw my hands into the air, in about the same time that it takes you to get the gun out of the holster. Would you still shoot me, even though the situation has changed completely in less than a second?

    These things happen a lot. In the few self defense situations I've encountered, I've been lucky enough to never have to fire my gun. Generally that is because the situation changed completely in less than a second, and by the time the gun was presented, it was no longer needed.

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    I would get my dogs under control on one side of me and go for the OC spray.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    I would climb a tree.

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