What Would OCDO'ers do

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expvideo wrote:

You completely missed my point. He didn't run from my gun, he ran from me.

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Got it. Under my guidelines I don't pull and shoot.



expvideo wrote:

And what are you saying? That when the perp sees you reaching for a gun and turns to run, or while you are lining up your sights he drops his weapon, or the dog stops attacking, you are going to just unload on him anyway, since you pulled it, afterall.

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You missed my point

It is one action with me that I practice, practice practice. I pull and fire. I hit what I am looking at. To give you and idea on one occasion I was walking through a field and kept scarring up grouse. I decided to practice. A grouse flew and I pulled and fired, hitting the grouse in the air with my 1911 A1.

If I fear for my life and I reach for my gun there is no more thought, I pull and fire.

ALL THE THOUGHT HAPPENS BEFORE I PULL AND FIRE.

If he is not a threat I don't pull and fire, if I can retreat I don't pull and fire, If he sees my gun or me starting to reach for it and runs or drops his gun what ever, I don't pull and fire.

He who hesitates is lost....he who second guesses is lost.

If a bad guy decides to accost me or mine, sufficient to cause me or mine to fear for lives then he had better change his mind fast.



Tarzan

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tarzan1888 wrote:

expvideo wrote:

You completely missed my point. He didn't run from my gun, he ran from me.

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Got it. Under my guidelines I don't pull and shoot.



expvideo wrote:

And what are you saying? That when the perp sees you reaching for a gun and turns to run, or while you are lining up your sights he drops his weapon, or the dog stops attacking, you are going to just unload on him anyway, since you pulled it, afterall.

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You missed my point

It is one action with my that I practice, practice practice. I pull and fire. I hit what I am looking at. To give you and idea on one occasion I was walking through a field and kept scarring up grouse. I decided to practice. A grouse flew and I pulled and fired, hitting the grouse in the air with my 1911 A1.

If I fear for my life and I reach for my gun there is no more thought, I pull and fire.

ALL THE THOUGHT HAPPENS BEFORE I PULL AND FIRE.

If he is not a threat I don't pull and fire, if I can retreat I don't pull and fire, If he sees my gun or me starting to reach for it and runs or drops his gun what ever, I don't pull and fire.

He who hesitates is lost....he who second guesses is lost.

If a bad guy decides to accost me or mine, sufficient to cause me or mine to fear for lives then he had better change his mind fast.



Tarzan

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See I completely agree with you, and I practice the same principle, but what you have to understand is that even if your pulling and firing motion takes only a second, the situation can change before the gun has risen to the point of firing. I don't pull my gun without intending to fire it either, but the situation can change drastically in that second. I agree that pulling the gun to try to de-escalate the problem is generally not a good practice and hesitation can get you killed. What I am saying is that if the dog (or person) has immediately stopped being a threat to you before your sights are lined up, you don't have to complete the draw-and-fire action.

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I guess my point would be better made with a hypothetical. Let's say it takes you only 1 second to draw, aim and fire your gun. Let's also say that I am running at you with a crowbar, and you have every reason to fear for your life. As I see you reach back to grab your gun, I drop the crowbar and throw my hands into the air, in about the same time that it takes you to get the gun out of the holster. Would you still shoot me, even though the situation has changed completely in less than a second?

These things happen a lot. In the few self defense situations I've encountered, I've been lucky enough to never have to fire my gun. Generally that is because the situation changed completely in less than a second, and by the time the gun was presented, it was no longer needed.

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I would get my dogs under control on one side of me and go for the OC spray.

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I would climb a tree.

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expvideo wrote:

I guess my point would be better made with a hypothetical. Let's say it takes you only 1 second to draw, aim and fire your gun. Let's also say that I am running at you with a crowbar, and you have every reason to fear for your life. As I see you reach back to grab your gun, I drop the crowbar and throw my hands into the air, in about the same time that it takes you to get the gun out of the holster. Would you still shoot me, even though the situation has changed completely in less than a second?

These things happen a lot. In the few self defense situations I've encountered, I've been lucky enough to never have to fire my gun. Generally that is because the situation changed completely in less than a second, and by the time the gun was presented, it was no longer needed.

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That is exactly why you don't draw until the last instant that your training and perpetration tell you that you must draw.

Drawing a weapon cannot be taken lightly and you must hope and pray that you don't draw to soon or to late.

I take carrying a gun very seriously as I think you do. I may be wrong but I think that your whole point is that we must take it seriously and be absolutely prepared and sure BEFORE we draw. If this is your point, it is mine too.

Tarzan

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tarzan1888 wrote:

expvideo wrote:

I guess my point would be better made with a hypothetical. Let's say it takes you only 1 second to draw, aim and fire your gun. Let's also say that I am running at you with a crowbar, and you have every reason to fear for your life. As I see you reach back to grab your gun, I drop the crowbar and throw my hands into the air, in about the same time that it takes you to get the gun out of the holster. Would you still shoot me, even though the situation has changed completely in less than a second?

These things happen a lot. In the few self defense situations I've encountered, I've been lucky enough to never have to fire my gun. Generally that is because the situation changed completely in less than a second, and by the time the gun was presented, it was no longer needed.

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That is exactly why you don't draw until the last instant that your training and perpetration tell you that you must draw.

Drawing a weapon cannot be taken lightly and you must hope and pray that you don't draw to soon or to late.

I take carrying a gun very seriously as I think you do. I may be wrong but I think that your whole point is that we must take it seriously and be absolutely prepared and sure BEFORE we draw. If this is your point, it is mine too.

Tarzan

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And that is where we completely agree. I am not saying to draw the gun and see if things improve before firing. I am saying that in the time it takes you to draw the gun, the situation can completely change. A lot can happen in 1 second. A dog can notice your body language and turn and run. A person can drop a crowbar and raise their hands. There are plenty of things to take into account, and all I am saying is that the situation, at least in my example, can change between the time you have decided to draw and fire and the time that you actually have the gun ready to fire. In many cases the gun being brought into play has an immediate effect, and the situation no longer warrants deadly force by the time the gun is ready to deliver that force.

I am talking about fractions of seconds here. I'm not talking about pulling out a gun and then waiting to re-assess the situation. I agree that the decision to shoot is made before the gun comes into play, and that a gun isn't a bargaining chip.

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VAopencarry wrote:

I'd call 911, the police will surely arrive in time to stop a vicious attack.

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With a shovel, a bucket and some sponges.

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Never Mind...Already addressed in a previous post....got in a hurry.

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VAopencarry wrote:

I'd call 911, the police will surely arrive in time to stop a vicious attack.

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That and quickly get in the fetal position, suck my thumb and not appear to be a threat (isnt that what they encourage in DC ? )

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I may agree with expvideo and tarzan 1888 if you are Ocing.

But, if you are CCing I would disagree. The BG doing the attack or attempting to attack does not know you are armed. To draw, but not necessarily pointing, may be required to send a message.

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BG doing the attack or attempting to attack does not know you are armed.

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What BG?????

:idea:Read the OP.

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A dog can generally tell that you are armed from your body language. It wouldn't be able to tell that you are armed just by seeing the gun, because unless that dog has had experience with armed people, he doesn't recognize what the gun is. He only recogizes your body language and your level of confidence. This is why a cat that runs from a fast dog has very poor survival odds, while a cat that stands it's ground and hisses at the charging dog is more likely to make the dog rethink it's actions and back down. The hunt instinct is countered by not acting like prey. If you show fear or run, you confirm to the dog that you are prey, and it continues to try to take you down. If you stand your ground and don't show the "correct" reaction of prey, the dog will see that something is wrong and doubt itself and it's capability to overpower you. It is not the gun that makes the dog back down, but the fact that you are confident in the gun. The dog doesn't understand the chunk of metal in your hand, but it understands the fact that you are confident in your ability to overpower it, and the fact that you associate that ability to the chunk of metal in your hand. So the dog knows that you have a weapon, but it isn't because the dog has any idea how a gun works.

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Agent19 wrote:

BG doing the attack or attempting to attack does not know you are armed.

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What BG?????

:idea:Read the OP.

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I believe expvideo and tarzan 1888 expanded their discussion to include BGs as well as dogs.

expvideo statement, after yours (Agent 19), about bogs I would agree with.