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Thread: Do you carry LTL (Less Then Lethal force)

  1. #1
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    Do you carry Pepper spray, Tazer, etc?

    If so what do you carry?

    Where do you carry it (pocket, strong/weak side, etc)?

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    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    I am a firm believer.

    LTL weapons fail to kill people who are trying to kill you. Just ask the latest police officer who was videotaped OC spraying the hell out of the driver of a Toyota Celica he had pulled over.

    Oh, that's right. The driver pulled out a pistol and killed him. Good ol' incapacitating agent evidently didn't incapacitate that murderer enough.

    Nah, bringing LTL to a gunfight is just as bad as bringing a knife to a gunfight.

    If it is a less than lethal situation, I don't need anything but my wits to remove myself from it. If it is a lethal situation, I really don't want to use LTL to respond.

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    Regular Member FiremanJoe's Avatar
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    I carry a can of Mark VI OC spray when I work when I can't carry the SW, (fri sat nights finds me bouncing at a trendy nightclub, in Ohio bar carry is a no no), and its usually sitting on the console in the truck, for those pesty panhandlers that rush yu at stop lights. ....
    Favorite recent Quote:
    "As long as I'm prosecutor, if someone comes into a store with a gun and I've said it before and I'll say it again they have forfeited their right not to be shot,"
    Hamilton County, Ohio - prosecutor; Joe Deters

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    I'm with Superlite on this one. All I need for less-than-lethal situations is me. Assuming I can't get away, I know enough ways to put someone down non-lethally if I need to.

    I'll tell you what, though: if I fear severe bodily injury or death I'm shooting from the time my weapon is pointed downrange until he hits the ground.

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    If I can't reason with someone, walk away or defend myself with my hands, I have used up allof my LTL tactics, and at this point I will defend myself with force, not hot sauce.

  6. #6
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    I carry an ASP Defender (pepper spray and kubotan) and my Surefire E2D flashlight (impact weapon).

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    Superlite27 wrote:
    I am a firm believer.

    LTL weapons fail to kill people who are trying to kill you. Just ask the latest police officer who was videotaped OC spraying the hell out of the driver of a Toyota Celica he had pulled over.

    Oh, that's right. The driver pulled out a pistol and killed him. Good ol' incapacitating agent evidently didn't incapacitate that murderer enough.

    Nah, bringing LTL to a gunfight is just as bad as bringing a knife to a gunfight.

    If it is a less than lethal situation, I don't need anything but my wits to remove myself from it. If it is a lethal situation, I really don't want to use LTL to respond.
    Why is every fight a gunfight?

    Not everyone is trying to kill you.

    You might encounter a bum on the street, someone who is on drugs, a delusional person, and they might badger you, harass you, etc... Lethal force here is not needed, unless of course they escalate the situation.

    Some type of spray, might come in handy in those types of situations where you are being harrassed or badgered by an individual who isn't threatening to kill you, but might be asking for money, drugs, whatever. And if this happens in the middle of the sidewalk, you can't just pull a gun, and say "get back". If you asked the person to get away from you and they didn't comply and you felt that they might escalate the situation, then spray would be a great way to go.

    There are plenty defense type situations where guns are not a justified means of force. You could of course argue that they are, in most situations, but it can be hard to prove.

    I believe it was compmanio who had a situation once, kind of like what I described, maybe he can confirm.

  8. #8
    State Researcher dng's Avatar
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    The only LTLIcarry is two fists and two feet. Maybe I need to do some self defense training to make them lethal.

  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Its surprisingly easy to kick or stomp someone to death or choke them death with your arms.

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    dngreer wrote:
    The only LTLIcarry is two fists and two feet. Maybe I need to do some self defense training to make them lethal.
    Ask and you shall receive...
    [img]http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0WTbx.B_1ZH4ckAPF.jzbkF/SIG=12fcnm3i5/EXP=1196970241/**http%3A//www.blogeditordmoz.com/images/Chuck_Norris_sport.jpg[/img]

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    State Researcher dng's Avatar
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    Maybe it's best to say they could be lethal or non lethal...

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    just a guy, with a Glock wrote:
    I carry a large canister of oc 17% with a pistol grip. It rides in the driver's side door compartment. Once while working for a bail bond company, a 300lb woman attempted to prevent me from taking her nephew to jail. If I had used a firearm, I would be sitting in prison right now.

    Some folks on here appear to be a little to happy at the prospect of killing another human being and need to study a bit of law on use of deadly force. Some States are now requiring a permitand 8 hour class for any carry at all. I was totally opposed to that until I started following this board. Some of theincredibly ignorant posts on here are doing NOTHING for the cause of open carry and everything to paint us as a bunch of dangerous shoot happy thugs. If I worked for the Brady campaign or one of the gun ban groups, I would print out some of the comments on here and use it in a public awareness campaign. Some of you could be easily presented as a potential ticking time bomb, a " future Cho" (Va. tech massacre) .

    Shoot an unarmed person and in MOST cases you will be charged and convicted. I would send you to death row without blinking a eye for killing an unarmed person
    You were a bail bondsman. You put yourself into harms way, and that line of work would almost require a LTL alternative. That's different from being a normal Joe. As a normal citizen, if someone is harrassing me, I can simply leave. If they are not allowing me to leave, my safety has been compromised, and a less lethal alternative is not a risk I'm willing to take. I will use a firm tone, my hands and feet, verbal warnings, and maybe even presenting my handgun before I will use lethal force. I will give them ample opportunity to stop being a threat to me, but there is no need for me to use escalating tiers of force. It has either come to a force-on-force encounter or it hasn't. I don't need to pepperspray a bum for bothering me for change because that is unnecessary, and I shouldn't be pepperspraying a guy trying to mug me at knifepoint because that is insufficient. The encounter either requires force or it doesn't. I either fear for my life or I don't.

  13. #13
    State Researcher dng's Avatar
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    I can agree with you on the point that there are some people who seem like they would be trigger happy. Hopefully it's all talk, because taking human life is not something to take pleasure in, look forward to, and in self defense situations, it should be the last choice. Don't hesitate to do it IF there is NO other choice (if you do, you could be the one who doesn't go home), but don't be eager to point that gun and pull the trigger.

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    xmirage2kx wrote:
    Do you carry Pepper spray, Tazer, etc?

    If so what do you carry?

    Where do you carry it (pocket, strong/weak side, etc)?
    Yes, if it's convenient, and I have a spare pocket for it (usually my left cargo pocket), my can of "The Guardian" spray will go with me. And just because I have it, that doesn't mean I'm required to use up all of its contents BEFORE my firearm comes into play. It just gives me another option to find a solution to another problem. Example: How about a stray dog that is acting somewhat aggressive that is following me, (but has yet to get very close)----I don't need to shoot it YET. I might throw a stick at it first, then I could spray it, then it might get the idea that I don't want to play (or be eaten) and leave. If at that point it wants to eat me, it would be fired upon.

    We all carry a firearm as a tool to solve a problem if it arises. A LTL give you another tool and another option to solve a problem if the case arises. But,I'll always use a LTL w/my non-dominant hand, just incase I need to quickly and decisively move to my firearm.

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    expvideo wrote:
    As a normal citizen, if someone is harrassing me, I can simply leave. If they are not allowing me to leave, my safety has been compromised, and a less lethal alternative is not a risk I'm willing to take. I will use a firm tone, my hands and feet, verbal warnings, and maybe even presenting my handgun before I will use lethal force. I will give them ample opportunity to stop being a threat to me, but there is no need for me to use escalating tiers of force. It has either come to a force-on-force encounter or it hasn't. I don't need to pepperspray a bum for bothering me for change because that is unnecessary, and I shouldn't be pepperspraying a guy trying to mug me at knifepoint because that is insufficient. The encounter either requires force or it doesn't. I either fear for my life or I don't.
    I agree 100 % expvideo. If a situation constitutes force, I carry only one tool for applying it and it comes in .45 caliber. A less than lethal alternative to a non life threatening situation would be leaving. If you can't leave, and the individual keeps pushing you, then use force.

    I have stated many times on many forums that I find it astonishing how many people truly believe a punch to the face cannot cause "serious bodily injury." A proper punch to the face can break several bones, cause blindness, destroy sinus cavities, and even cause death if implemented properly. I will not risk this. If I believea person is going to lay hands on me, I am in fear of serious bodily injury. In my state, that would make the use of force legal, and I would certainly exercise my full capabilities in defending myself. As a small guy (5'5'' about 175 lbs), I am not a damn boxer. I carry a gun because ifa big ass guy wants something from me, and I'm unarmed, he's going to get it. I'll keep my wallet and my dignity thank you very much.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    I don't carry LTL except when I am concerned about running into dogs.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Shoot an unarmed person and in MOST cases you will be charged and convicted. I would send you to death row without blinking a eye for killing an unarmed person



    Luckly, you don't live in Washington state. You are a moron.

    If you can open your eyes wide enough to let in some light, you will read the post titled Puyallup, WA Gas Station Shooter not to be chargedwhere a drunk judo expert smashed in the window of a car and began hammering the driver. The passenger responded with 2 rounds from a .357 Mag. Incident recorded on video and viewed by eyewitnesses in a brightly lit area. DA and Cops didn't even arrest him.

    Glad to see you have an open mind toward self defense situations. I suppose you would convict a 100 pound girl being choked and raped for pulling her 32 auto and shooting her attacker, or the terrifiedwife and 10 year oldin Virginia who shot the man kicking down the door as he screamed he was going to "Cut them both". Father told them via cell phone to "do what you have to do". The ten year old was just the kind of cold blooded killer you want to put away. Or the elderly man in New York whojerked the gun away from the young tough and then turned the gun against him before he could be beaten to death. Or the 68 year old man at the remote rest stop here in Washington who retreated before the enraged man with just a bottle, not really a weapon, right? On and on the cases go; the weak, the helpless or the elderly; people defending themselves against the younger, stronger perp or the gang. Numbers, Training, Drugs, Viciousness are all in the category of Disparity of Force that the enemy has on his side.

    So as the terrified girl tells the jury what it felt like to feel her life slipping away as the rapist choked her, how she just barely reached her gun in time, are you going to vote for her death against the poor unarmed rapist?

    I bet you will feel like a real man.








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    just a guy, with a Glock wrote:
    If you are under the impression that the "stand your ground law" that was recently enacted in Alabama authorized deadly force for minor physical disputes you have some research to do. Perhaps you should speak to a criminal defense attorney and have him/ or her walk you through the law word by word.It doesn't make you immune from prosecution if you misuse that .45 nor does it shield you from a tort action.
    Leave the interpretation of Alabama law to me okay pal? I am, after all, a junior pre-law student, who has spent many an hour in a law firm discussing these lethal force and handgun laws. So unless you yourself possess a juris doctorate, which I doubt, and happent to be licensed by the Alabama Bar, I will take your advice like I take my grits, with a little salt.

    There is no such thing as a minor physical dispute. If someone grabs me and I cannot immediately get away, I will not hesitate to use force. Like I said before, I am not a fighter, and the number one tool in your arsenal is always self awareness. However, if some guy jumps me and lays hands on me, I will not let him kick my ass and take my stuff just because he isn't armed. I have never in my life been in a real fight, and I plan to keep it that way. I have proven to myself on several occassions that I cannot be provoked to physical violence, and will only resort to it in defense of myself. So, guy with a glock, carry your pepper spray, your pocket taser, or whatever LTL device you wish. When a 200+ lb man has you pinned against a wall by your throat, we'll see what you reach for. As for me, I'll reach for what I have, not a bottle of hot sauce, as expvideo so eloquently put it.

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    vmathis12019 wrote:
    just a guy, with a Glock wrote:
    If you are under the impression that the "stand your ground law" that was recently enacted in Alabama authorized deadly force for minor physical disputes you have some research to do. Perhaps you should speak to a criminal defense attorney and have him/ or her walk you through the law word by word.It doesn't make you immune from prosecution if you misuse that .45 nor does it shield you from a tort action.
    Leave the interpretation of Alabama law to me okay pal? I am, after all, a junior pre-law student, who has spent many an hour in a law firm discussing these lethal force and handgun laws. So unless you yourself possess a juris doctorate, which I doubt, and happent to be licensed by the Alabama Bar, I will take your advice like I take my grits, with a little salt.

    There is no such thing as a minor physical dispute. If someone grabs me and I cannot immediately get away, I will not hesitate to use force. Like I said before, I am not a fighter, and the number one tool in your arsenal is always self awareness. However, if some guy jumps me and lays hands on me, I will not let him kick my ass and take my stuff just because he isn't armed. I have never in my life been in a real fight, and I plan to keep it that way. I have proven to myself on several occassions that I cannot be provoked to physical violence, and will only resort to it in defense of myself. So, guy with a glock, carry your pepper spray, your pocket taser, or whatever LTL device you wish. When a 200+ lb man has you pinned against a wall by your throat, we'll see what you reach for. As for me, I'll reach for what I have, not a bottle of hot sauce, as expvideo so eloquently put it.
    vmathis12019, I too don't carry a less than lethal device. Either I fear for my life or I don't, no in between. I will do everything possible to avoid confrontation including walking away if given the opportunity. If it should escalate to the point that I am not allowed to walk away, then it has gotten to a pretty serious situation. I hope that I, nor anyone else on this forum ever has to use deadly force however I do not trust less than lethal devices in a life threatening situation. I centainly don't want my hand occupied with pepper spray when the assailant brings out a knife or firearm!!!

  20. #20
    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    I do carry OC, and have confirmed that it does, indeed, ruin your day. I did pull it once on a crazy person who tried to start a fight with me for no other reason than that I was there on the street at that time. I did wish I had been armed at the time (and since have rethought about not carrying at certain times), in case this person was not incapacitated or turned out to have a weapon. I've also used OC before on an attacking dog, when I did not yet have a sidearm, to great effect.

    I'm not saying that if I feel my life is in danger that I'm going to pull my OC first and go through the force levels; I will pull my gun and fire if necessary. But in this situation, even being armed, I would still have pulled my OC first, given that I was across the street, the man didn't look armed, and was just talking big at the moment. Proper tools for the proper situation. Despite WA laws giving a large amount of liberty to use necessary force in a given situation, I would rather go away having sprayed someone with OC rather than putting anywhere between 1 to 9 .45 caliber holes in that person, if it is possible. The guy goes to jail and gets to have fun while I go on about my business and the worst that happens is a sworn statement of what happened. Shooting the guy? Probable trial and lots of $$$ down the drain, even if it is found justifiable homicide. Family who wants me strung up and lots of hassle, when I could have just used LTL force.

    My policy on using force in brief: 1) If there is a non lethal threat, use LTL tools to end the confrontation, or if possible, escape the situation entirely. 2) If the situation poses a threat to life and limb, or if non-lethal threatbecomes lethal, apply deadly force to end threat.

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    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    Openryan seems to think I'm trigger-happy.
    Why is every fight a gunfight?

    Not everyone is trying to kill you.

    If some bum were to approach me and ask for money, I would make a determination whether or not to give it to him based upon my own feelings of generosity.......or not.

    If I choose NOT to give him money (most likely), he better head the other way and ask another person.

    CONTRARY TO YOUR OPINION, I DO NOT SHOOT HIM AT THIS POINT.

    If he were to continue to pester me, I would INFORM HIM (just in case he failed to notice my large .45 caliber pistol carried in condition 1) that I am armed and will shoot him if he does not cease and desist. Then I walk away.

    NOTICE: I STILL HAVE NOT PUT ANY HOLES IN HIM.

    If he were then still dense enough to CONTINUE harrassing me, he must not be very afraid of Federal Hydrashocks. I would then remove my firearm from it's holster, take a defensive stance, and hold it at the low ready position.

    NOTICE: I STILL HAVE NOT SOILED MY FIREARM'S BARREL.

    If, by some amazing lack of common sense, the idiot still hasn't figured out that he's not getting a dime, and fails to leave, we are at a stalemate.

    I STILL HAVE NOT SHOT.

    We can stand there all night. He can look at me all he wants as I walk away. He takes any motion towards me whatsoever, HE'S BEEN WARNED ENOUGH......

    I'm putting him down......for good.

    Most scenarios, I'm guessing the panhandler will take off at the first mention of GUN. If he doesn't, I think you're going to need more than Hot Sauce.

    People will ask about someone tackling me, or surprising me, or being too close to carry on the previous conversation.

    I am carrying a deadly weapon. When I become unconcious, the other guy has a deadly weapon. Any attempt to incapacitate me becomes a life threatening situation.

  22. #22
    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    Superlite27 wrote:
    Openryan seems to think I'm trigger-happy.
    Why is every fight a gunfight?

    Not everyone is trying to kill you.

    If some bum were to approach me and ask for money, I would make a determination whether or not to give it to him based upon my own feelings of generosity.......or not.

    If I choose NOT to give him money (most likely), he better head the other way and ask another person.

    CONTRARY TO YOUR OPINION, I DO NOT SHOOT HIM AT THIS POINT.

    If he were to continue to pester me, I would INFORM HIM (just in case he failed to notice my large .45 caliber pistol carried in condition 1) that I am armed and will shoot him if he does not cease and desist. Then I walk away.

    NOTICE: I STILL HAVE NOT PUT ANY HOLES IN HIM.

    If he were then still dense enough to CONTINUE harrassing me, he must not be very afraid of Federal Hydrashocks. I would then remove my firearm from it's holster, take a defensive stance, and hold it at the low ready position.

    NOTICE: I STILL HAVE NOT SOILED MY FIREARM'S BARREL.

    If, by some amazing lack of common sense, the idiot still hasn't figured out that he's not getting a dime, and fails to leave, we are at a stalemate.

    I STILL HAVE NOT SHOT.

    We can stand there all night. He can look at me all he wants as I walk away. He takes any motion towards me whatsoever, HE'S BEEN WARNED ENOUGH......

    I'm putting him down......for good.

    Most scenarios, I'm guessing the panhandler will take off at the first mention of GUN. If he doesn't, I think you're going to need more than Hot Sauce.

    People will ask about someone tackling me, or surprising me, or being too close to carry on the previous conversation.

    I am carrying a deadly weapon. When I become unconcious, the other guy has a deadly weapon. Any attempt to incapacitate me becomes a life threatening situation.
    In your scenario above (based on WA state law) you would be guilty of brandishing/assault the moment you drew your weapon. No threat to life or limb is present, and aggressive panhandling is NOT a felony. It is damned annoying, but not a danger to you, and not a felony in which you are allowed to use deadly force. However, if this guy kept harassing you, even if he started a physical altercation, you could use OC or another LTL tool to "discourage" him from continuing the encounter, and/or to subdue them until the police showed up to arrest this guy for assaulting you. You shoot him and you go to jail for a long time....lose your gun rights......make everyone else look bad. You see where I'm going with this. (If the guy tries to get your weapon, that's a completely different story, and a situation where you are in danger to life and limb, but simple assault or harassment doesn't qualify.)

    By all means, if you are within your right to draw and fire, then do so. If not, then it better stay in it's holster.

    Those of you who say you'd just fight it out mano a mano.....problem is your arms don't reach the 15 feet that OC does. I personally don't want someone getting that close to even have the opportunity to grab my sidearm. OC gives you the ability to subdue someone without having to go "hands on". This is why the police use OC and the air Taser, cause they don't have to risk a gun grab by scuffling with the perp. Do I think both are used when they don't need to be? Sure, they are abused too often. But I can see where the reasoning comes in.

    If I spray the guy and he just keeps coming, well, he's obviously not getting the point and I think I have reasonable suspicion that he is intent on causing grave injury to me, if not finishing the job once I'm down and out. I'm not a fighter, kickboxer, martial arts guru, etc; I shouldn't have to be to defend myself. That's where LTL tools come in, and if necessary, where the handgun comes into play.

  23. #23
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    Superlite27 wrote:
    Openryan seems to think I'm trigger-happy.
    Why is every fight a gunfight?

    Not everyone is trying to kill you.

    If some bum were to approach me and ask for money, I would make a determination whether or not to give it to him based upon my own feelings of generosity.......or not.

    If I choose NOT to give him money (most likely), he better head the other way and ask another person.

    CONTRARY TO YOUR OPINION, I DO NOT SHOOT HIM AT THIS POINT.

    If he were to continue to pester me, I would INFORM HIM (just in case he failed to notice my large .45 caliber pistol carried in condition 1) that I am armed and will shoot him if he does not cease and desist. Then I walk away.

    NOTICE: I STILL HAVE NOT PUT ANY HOLES IN HIM.

    If he were then still dense enough to CONTINUE harrassing me, he must not be very afraid of Federal Hydrashocks. I would then remove my firearm from it's holster, take a defensive stance, and hold it at the low ready position.

    NOTICE: I STILL HAVE NOT SOILED MY FIREARM'S BARREL.

    If, by some amazing lack of common sense, the idiot still hasn't figured out that he's not getting a dime, and fails to leave, we are at a stalemate.

    I STILL HAVE NOT SHOT.

    We can stand there all night. He can look at me all he wants as I walk away. He takes any motion towards me whatsoever, HE'S BEEN WARNED ENOUGH......

    I'm putting him down......for good.

    Most scenarios, I'm guessing the panhandler will take off at the first mention of GUN. If he doesn't, I think you're going to need more than Hot Sauce.

    People will ask about someone tackling me, or surprising me, or being too close to carry on the previous conversation.

    I am carrying a deadly weapon. When I become unconcious, the other guy has a deadly weapon. Any attempt to incapacitate me becomes a life threatening situation.
    So you are going to give an unarmed bum a couple of warning, if he keeps following you and asking for money, you are then going to brandish your pistol, as a final warning of course, then shoot him.

    Start working out now so you don't get beat up in prison. :P

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    Superlite27 wrote:
    Openryan seems to think I'm trigger-happy.
    Why is every fight a gunfight?

    Not everyone is trying to kill you.

    If some bum were to approach me and ask for money, I would make a determination whether or not to give it to him based upon my own feelings of generosity.......or not.

    If I choose NOT to give him money (most likely), he better head the other way and ask another person.

    CONTRARY TO YOUR OPINION, I DO NOT SHOOT HIM AT THIS POINT.

    If he were to continue to pester me, I would INFORM HIM (just in case he failed to notice my large .45 caliber pistol carried in condition 1) that I am armed and will shoot him if he does not cease and desist. Then I walk away.

    NOTICE: I STILL HAVE NOT PUT ANY HOLES IN HIM.

    If he were then still dense enough to CONTINUE harrassing me, he must not be very afraid of Federal Hydrashocks. I would then remove my firearm from it's holster, take a defensive stance, and hold it at the low ready position.

    NOTICE: I STILL HAVE NOT SOILED MY FIREARM'S BARREL.

    If, by some amazing lack of common sense, the idiot still hasn't figured out that he's not getting a dime, and fails to leave, we are at a stalemate.

    I STILL HAVE NOT SHOT.

    We can stand there all night. He can look at me all he wants as I walk away. He takes any motion towards me whatsoever, HE'S BEEN WARNED ENOUGH......

    I'm putting him down......for good.

    Most scenarios, I'm guessing the panhandler will take off at the first mention of GUN. If he doesn't, I think you're going to need more than Hot Sauce.

    People will ask about someone tackling me, or surprising me, or being too close to carry on the previous conversation.

    I am carrying a deadly weapon. When I become unconcious, the other guy has a deadly weapon. Any attempt to incapacitate me becomes a life threatening situation.
    Uhhh....I'll second openryan's assessment of your condition. Why not just walk away? (And hurt your mall ninja-pride?) Or kick him in the junk and run? (Are you too much of a MAN to do that?) Or even spray him w/OC, if needed, and use that as a diversion to "get thee out." ("But then I don't get to show off my purdy 1911 to the neighborhood kids at the playground across the street!")

    So from your above post, I gander that anyone that looks at you funny, or has a heated discussion with you, you're going to tell them that you have a GUN?!? Get a life.

    PS: Federal Hydrashoks are a 20-year old design. Do yourself a favor and go buy some Federal Tactical Bonded or HST. Much better design. The only reason Federal continues to market the Hydrashok is because of name-recognition, NOT because it is the best round performance-wise.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    Hmmmm. Good points.



    Too bad for bums and pandhandlers.....I'm not in Washington. I have no duty to be nice. It's called a verbal warning. If someone clearly and distinctly says to you "Leave me alone or I will shoot you", are you going to press your luck? Are you going to see if they are serious?

    If they advance, they must not be afraid of holes. It all boils down to whether or not I can prove that "a reasonable person" would be afraid for their life.

    If you are pointing a firearm at a person and they are unafraid of you enough to advance, are you willing to let them do it just to see if they might be able to take your gun away?

    Not me. If I'm pointing a gun at them and they advance, they must have one of their own, or they want to take mine. I think a reasonable person could assume the same.

    P.S. What about Winchester Ranger T's? Are they as good as people claim?


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