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Thread: Open Carry a Magazine ??

  1. #1
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    Hi,

    Been lurking for awhile, thought I'd chime in. Here's a question I've wondered about? In Florida I have a CCW permit. There is, for all practical purposes, no open carry here. Can I carry concealed weapon and wear a spare magazine on my belt in plain view? What if I put my gun away and still had the belt on with the magazine?

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    Do you have a link to the FL state code online?

    I guess it would depend on their definition of firearm, weapon... etc.

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    I didn't see any reference in the code.Could the case be made that since a magazine for your gun was showing that you violated the CC by printing. Even though the magazine was not in the gun. Just looking for some true life experiences.

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    Why do you want to oc a mag anyway? They make plent of IWB holsters that hold a spare mag, and are decently comfortable at least to me.

    Ill look and see what I can find as to their definitions...

    Printing, and open carry are far different, concealed means out of view, hidden. Just cause a weapon is printing doesn't negate the fact that it is still concealed.

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    Interesting Q.

    As mentioned above. It will depend on the definitions in the FL code on what a "weapon", etc is in rgards to the concealed carry permit.


    What if you OC a magazine with no gun on your person? I would think the answer to this would be the same as if you had a "gun" on you, legally.


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    interesting question -

    while a mag is part of a firearm it has no independent function as a weapon (unless you throw it at someone & in that case your cellphone would also be a weapon).

    the mag on your belt would not be needed to make the weapon operational since, presumably, the cc weapon would already have a full mag in it.but wearing the mag might be construed as "advertising" that you are carrying - similar to "printing" or brandishing .


    same is true if you were to wear an empty holster. or a bullet on a chain around your neck. the pieces have no "weapon" function.

    on the other hand - if you are already required to conceal the weapon, there is probably no good reason to oc the mag. if you really want to, you might look in to some alternative carry pack - small belly pack or even a cell phone carrier would hold 1-2 mags with easy access.



    bottom line - since you do not "need" the mag to be visisble, it might be best to not look from problems from local leo's(the average person would probably not even recognize a magazine or a mag holder).



    papasmee


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    1911CC wrote:
    Hi,

    Been lurking for awhile, thought I'd chime in. Here's a question I've wondered about? In Florida I have a CCW permit. There is, for all practical purposes, no open carry here. Can I carry concealed weapon and wear a spare magazine on my belt in plain view? What if I put my gun away and still had the belt on with the magazine?
    Here is FL's definition of a firearm, magazine does not qualify under defnition of weapon which excludes firearms.

    (6)"Firearm" means any weapon (including a starter gun) which will, is designed to, or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; any destructive device; or any machine gun. The term "firearm" does not include an antique firearm unless the antique firearm is used in the commission of a crime.

    (13)"Weapon" means any dirk, knife, metallic knuckles, slungshot, billie, tear gas gun, chemical weapon or device, or other deadly weapon except a firearm or a common pocketknife, plastic knife, or blunt-bladed table knife.

    It doesn't explicity say a maganize is a firearm, either loaded or unloaded...
    However it is murky enough to where I couldn't really say you can or can't, maybe consult an attorney...?

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    I can't really see how a magazine would be considered a weapone in any way, shape, or form.



    Also is there anywhere that says printing is illegal? This is the first I've heard of it. As of yet I've to see anything that mentions it being illegal, it's always been simply concealed or not.

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    BrokenR1 wrote:
    I can't really see how a magazine would be considered a weapone in any way, shape, or form.



    Also is there anywhere that says printing is illegal? This is the first I've heard of it. As of yet I've to see anything that mentions it being illegal, it's always been simply concealed or not.
    No, printing is not illegal, it is concealed or it isn't, just like you said. If an officer sees you printing it might give him reason to ask you for a permit, but that is about it.

    In some states magazines are actually considered a weapon even when held seperately from the firearm, and from what I have read online, FL is not one of those states.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenR1 View Post
    I can't really see how a magazine would be considered a weapone in any way, shape, or form.
    It's not. However, one must put this into perspective...

    One day while hiking, I found a .45 ACP round smack dab in the middle of the rocky trail. Not wishing someone to step on it and in a freak accident blow a hole in their foot, I pocketed it.

    At home, I realized I had no use for it, nor any good way of disposing it, so living next door to the police station, I simply dropped it by.

    The dispatcher nearly freaked when I held it up and asked her to hand it over to one of the law enforcement officers, as I'm sure they had a proper ammunition disposal procedure.

    (sigh)

    I didn't bother telling her about the one I had in the chamber of my firearm in the car, or the 16 behind it, or the other 16 in the spare magazine, as the thought alone would have finished her for sure!

    Also is there anywhere that says printing is illegal? This is the first I've heard of it. As of yet I've to see anything that mentions it being illegal, it's always been simply concealed or not.
    Some states. This is a Florida thread, so given no OC (yet), printing is probably illegal, there.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    It's not. However, one must put this into perspective...

    One day while hiking, I found a .45 ACP round smack dab in the middle of the rocky trail. Not wishing someone to step on it and in a freak accident blow a hole in their foot, I pocketed it.

    At home, I realized I had no use for it, nor any good way of disposing it, so living next door to the police station, I simply dropped it by.

    The dispatcher nearly freaked when I held it up and asked her to hand it over to one of the law enforcement officers, as I'm sure they had a proper ammunition disposal procedure.

    (sigh)

    I didn't bother telling her about the one I had in the chamber of my firearm in the car, or the 16 behind it, or the other 16 in the spare magazine, as the thought alone would have finished her for sure!



    Some states. This is a Florida thread, so given no OC (yet), printing is probably illegal, there.
    Three year old necro-post!

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    Quote Originally Posted by brboyer View Post
    Three year old necro-post!
    That's got to be some kind of a record.

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    Since it's been necroed, may as well make use of it.

    I OC my mags all the time. It's convenient since I usually have stuff in my pockets already. Stuff I don't want scratched. Also prevents all that pocket lint getting in my mags. You know that little pocket that most jeans have? I stick a neodymium magnet in there, and stick my mags to it. A .25x.5x1 inch n48 holds both of my full 1911 mags. Never dropped one in about a decade of carrying them that way.

    I've seen no mention of mags or ammo as being a weapon in any part of Florida Statute. I have a .50 BMG SLAP-T round that a Cop once tried to accuse me of using as a dagger/concealed weapon because it was in my pocket... That charge didn't last very long.

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    While anecdotal and not empirical evidence, I can say that I've OC'd a loaded mag and an empty holster to about a half dozen High School football games while visiting here and have never even been approached once.

    Make of that what you will.

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    The way the Law works is that carrying a concealed firearm is illegal .......................... unless you have a concealed carry license. An open carried magazine in and of itself is not illegal, however any LEO seeing it would most likely investigate as is prudent and proper under current statute. Why look for unnecessary conflict?

    790.01 Carrying concealed weapons. —


    (2) A person who carries a concealed firearm on or about his or her person commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.


    (3) This section does not apply to a person licensed to carry a concealed weapon or a concealed firearm pursuant to the provisions of s. 790.06.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SGB View Post
    however any LEO seeing it would most likely investigate as is prudent and proper under current statute.
    I'm gonna have to whip out the 'cite please.' The entirety of this thread thus far has been a shining example that there is no law against it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SGB View Post
    Why look for unnecessary conflict?
    Until you can cite where a MAG is RAS/PC, I'm going with: The only possible conflict will be from an Officer who does not obey the law.
    Last edited by ixtow; 12-20-2010 at 10:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    I'm gonna have to whip out the 'cite please.' The entirety of this thread thus far has been a shining example that there is no law against it.
    Until you can cite where a MAG is RAS/PC, I'm going with: The only possible conflict will be from an Officer who does not obey the law.
    Terry v Ohio

    Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968), was a decision by the United States Supreme Court which held that the Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures is not violated when a police officer stops a suspect on the street and searches him without probable cause to arrest, if the police officer has a reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime.

    Reasonable suspicion has been defined by the U.S. Supreme Court as “the sort of common-sense conclusion about human behavior upon which practical people . . . are entitled to rely.” Further, it has defined reasonable suspicion as requiring only something more than an “unarticulated hunch.” It requires facts or circumstances that give rise to more than a bare, imaginary, or purely conjectural suspicion.

    As stated in my previous post 790.01 makes concealed carry of a firearm illegal in Florida, 790.06 only provides an exception to 790.01.

    The visual display of a pistol magazine is without question probable cause to believe that the individual is carrying a concealed firearm and the Officer would be duty bound to investigate.

    790.02 Officer to arrest without warrant and upon probable cause. —

    The carrying of a concealed weapon is declared a breach of peace, and any officer authorized to make arrests under the laws of this state may make arrests without warrant of persons violating the provisions of s. 790.01 when said officer has reasonable grounds or probable cause to believe that the offense of carrying a concealed weapon is being committed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SGB View Post
    Terry v Ohio




    As stated in my previous post 790.01 makes concealed carry of a firearm illegal in Florida, 790.06 only provides an exception to 790.01.

    The visual display of a pistol magazine is without question probable cause to believe that the individual is carrying a concealed firearm and the Officer would be duty bound to investigate.

    790.02 Officer to arrest without warrant and upon probable cause. —

    The carrying of a concealed weapon is declared a breach of peace, and any officer authorized to make arrests under the laws of this state may make arrests without warrant of persons violating the provisions of s. 790.01 when said officer has reasonable grounds or probable cause to believe that the offense of carrying a concealed weapon is being committed.
    The visual display of a pistol magazine is without question probable cause to believe that the individual is carrying a concealed firearm and the Officer would be duty bound to investigate.
    Perhaps...

    State v. Skrobacki, 331 So. 2d 376
    As to probable cause, the trooper upon seeing the box of ammunition and the pistol clip in the glove compartment, had reason to believe that a pistol was somewhere in the automobile but this did not justify a search for the pistol because it is not unlawful to carry a pistol in an automobile unless it is so located as to be on or about the person and is not securely encased. The trooper did not have reasonable grounds to believe that the pistol would be located under the driver's seat and not securely encased.
    The trooper did not have reasonable grounds to believe that the pistol would be located under the driver's seat and not securely encased.
    Paraphrased:
    The trooper did not have reasonable grounds to believe that the pistol would be carried in a manner in violation of the law.
    Last edited by brboyer; 12-21-2010 at 11:16 PM.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SGB View Post
    The visual display of a pistol magazine is without question probable cause to believe that the individual is carrying a concealed firearm and the Officer would be duty bound to investigate.
    You cited a bunch of valid law, made up this part, then cited some more actual law.

    It looks like a bullschidt sandwich.

    Carrying a mag is not evidence of anything other than carrying a mag. If you carry a flashlight, is that RAS/PC that you're going to break into someone's house, or beat them with your Maglite? Or kidnap and interrogate them while shining it in their face?

    If I buy beer at the supermarket, and then get in my car and drive home, is that RAS/PC that I'm drinking it on the way home?

    If I am carrying a rock, is that RAS/PC that I'm planning to throw it at you?

    What if I buy roofing nails at Home Depot? Am I planning to go all spy-hunter and scatter them on the road while cops chase me for having a mag?

    I'm wearing pants, is that RAS/PC that I'm about to moon you? Or that I even have an ass?

    Maybe I'm a Felon? I can't buy guns, but I still have a mag with ammo in it!

    Blah blah blah.

    I OC my mags all the time. They're shiny, too. People have asked. "Because it's a shame I can't OC the gun, too"

    I was promoting OC in FL before there was a petition, or even an OCDO. I did it by OCing my mags.
    Last edited by ixtow; 12-21-2010 at 10:53 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by brboyer View Post
    Perhaps...

    State v. Skrobacki, 331 So. 2d 376

    Your mistake is in comparing Apples and Oranges, you can't equate a box of ammunition and a pistol magazine in a glove compartment to being the same as having a pistol magazine physically displayed on your person. One is in your immediate possession and the other is not.

    Further your cite deals with probable cause not reasonable suspicion. Terry V Ohio only requires reasonable suspicion not probable cause. The openly displayed possession of a pistol magazine provides reasonable suspicion.


    originaly posted by: ixtow
    Originally Posted by SGB
    The visual display of a pistol magazine is without question probable cause to believe that the individual is carrying a concealed firearm and the Officer would be duty bound to investigate.



    You cited a bunch of valid law, made up this part, then cited some more actual law.

    It looks like a bullschidt sandwich.

    Carrying a mag is not evidence of anything other than carrying a mag. If you carry a flashlight, is that RAS/PC that you're going to break into someone's house, or beat them with your Maglite? Or kidnap and interrogate them while shining it in their face?

    If I buy beer at the supermarket, and then get in my car and drive home, is that RAS/PC that I'm drinking it on the way home?

    If I am carrying a rock, is that RAS/PC that I'm planning to throw it at you?

    What if I buy roofing nails at Home Depot? Am I planning to go all spy-hunter and scatter them on the road while cops chase me for having a mag?

    I'm wearing pants, is that RAS/PC that I'm about to moon you? Or that I even have an ass?

    Maybe I'm a Felon? I can't buy guns, but I still have a mag with ammo in it!

    Blah blah blah.

    I OC my mags all the time. They're shiny, too. People have asked. "Because it's a shame I can't OC the gun, too"

    I was promoting OC in FL before there was a petition, or even an OCDO. I did it by OCing my mags.

    itow,

    Obviously you are free to believe what ever you wish. However the childish accusation that I made something up was uncalled for. When I was on the street enforcing the Law I averaged a 90-92% conviction rate so I'm pretty sure that I've got a good grasp on how LE works. I also promote Open carry and my post was in no way to indicate otherwise. I simply pointed out that under Florida's current statutes it could bring unwanted attention from Law Enforcement.

    If you want to open carry your magazines more power to you however the fact that you to this date have not drawn the attention of a LEO doesn't mean that you never will.

  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SGB View Post
    Your mistake is in comparing Apples and Oranges, you can't equate a box of ammunition and a pistol magazine in a glove compartment to being the same as having a pistol magazine physically displayed on your person. One is in your immediate possession and the other is not.

    Further your cite deals with probable cause not reasonable suspicion. Terry V Ohio only requires reasonable suspicion not probable cause. The openly displayed possession of a pistol magazine provides reasonable suspicion.





    itow,

    Obviously you are free to believe what ever you wish. However the childish accusation that I made something up was uncalled for. When I was on the street enforcing the Law I averaged a 90-92% conviction rate so I'm pretty sure that I've got a good grasp on how LE works. I also promote Open carry and my post was in no way to indicate otherwise. I simply pointed out that under Florida's current statutes it could bring unwanted attention from Law Enforcement.

    If you want to open carry your magazines more power to you however the fact that you to this date have not drawn the attention of a LEO doesn't mean that you never will.
    I'm just like that, don't read too much into it.

    I draw the attention of LEOs all the damn time. I never said I haven't.

    Regardless of Florida's current law, some LEOs just like to screw with people. In FL, it seems like a majority fit in that category. Many of them know me by name and intentionally look for ways to screw with me because I dared to push back and put them in their place.

    Never once has my pair of 1911 matte-chromed mags with 8 rounds each ever drawn their scrutiny. It may not be entirely conclusive. But phuckers like this wouldn't let anything slide they could use. They've SHOT at me. My conclusion is that, if they could have used it to screw with me, they would have. They've tried to stretch and lie in a multitude of ways. But they never tried to use the mags. There must be a reason for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SGB View Post
    Your mistake is in comparing Apples and Oranges, you can't equate a box of ammunition and a pistol magazine in a glove compartment to being the same as having a pistol magazine physically displayed on your person. One is in your immediate possession and the other is not.

    Further your cite deals with probable cause not reasonable suspicion. Terry V Ohio only requires reasonable suspicion not probable cause. The openly displayed possession of a pistol magazine provides reasonable suspicion.
    [snip]
    Actually no.

    In Regalado v. State, Fla: Dist. Court of Appeals, 4th Dist. 2009, the court has this to say:
    Despite the obvious potential danger to officers and the public by a person in possession of a concealed gun in a crowd, this is not illegal in Florida unless the person does not have a concealed weapons permit, a fact that an officer cannot glean by mere observation. Based upon our understanding of both Florida and United States Supreme Court precedent, stopping a person solely on the ground that the individual possesses a gun violates the Fourth Amendment

    So this answers the question of whether a LEO can demand production of a CWFL in the following situations
    1) The open carry of a pistol magazine now, and
    2) The open carry of a firearm (when open carry is 'more legal' than it is today) next year.
    without RAS of some criminal activity taking place. The court had this to say (Paraphrased):
    Possession of a concealed gun is not illegal in Florida unless the person does not have a concealed weapons permit

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Yes, you DID make that part up, you put something valid on the top and bottom to try to legitimize it, and then you called me childish for nailing you on it. It's a bullschidt sandwich and I'm not eating it. Trying to force feed it to me and call me childish is, uh, I won't insult children by calling that childish, too.

    As Mr. Boyer has pointed out, Carrying a GUN isn't RAS/PC to investigate.

    This has been suggested by people who just don't get it before. It is not RAS/PC to pull someone over just because they are driving, even thought it is a licensed behavior. So, how could a stop for someone carrying a gas can on the side of the road be any more legit?

    Even if I am carrying a gun illegally concealed, the visibility of the mags doesn't mean there is a gun or mean I don't have a permit. Since carrying the concealed gun is only a crime in the absence of the permit, the cop has to have RAS/PC that you don't have a permit.

    What part of carrying mags visible gives the officer RAS/PC that you don't have a permit? Nothing, it's unrelated. Just like carrying a gas can doesn't have anything to do with weather or not you have a drivers' license.

    There is a reason why a number of cops with an ego-based beef have never tried to use the mags against me. This is that reason.
    Last edited by ixtow; 12-23-2010 at 12:09 PM.

  24. #24
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    I read through this last post nodding my head, saying yes, yes, ixtow gets it... Then I got to this part:

    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    There is a reason why a number of cops with an ego-based beef have never tried to use the mags against me. This is that reason.
    I get it, you have a problem with police officers. You have said it at every possible opportunity. Let it go or sue them for a civil rights violation under color of law. If you have no grounds for action, this is just cop bashing without justification and it makes us all look bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StogieC View Post
    I read through this last post nodding my head, saying yes, yes, ixtow gets it... Then I got to this part:



    I get it, you have a problem with police officers. You have said it at every possible opportunity. Let it go or sue them for a civil rights violation under color of law. If you have no grounds for action, this is just cop bashing without justification and it makes us all look bad.
    +1

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