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How far does the Second Amendment go?

deepdiver

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PT111 wrote:
I have a question and does relate to 2A. In the revolutinoary war were soldiers issued rifles or were they required to bring their own. I know there have been stories about militia men coming from their houses with their firearms but I have never heard if the regular soldiers were issued firearms or not. I suspect that at least some were but can anyone provide facts. I have read where some ships were under contract to the US government but privately owned. Could this have been an influence in the insistance of 2A?
In some internet searching I have found what confirmed my memory from various books over the years. Combining various sites' info: Each of the states were to provide a certain number of soldiers based on population and were to equip the men with arms, equipment and clothing. This was for the Continental Army, the regulars if you will. Lists of the men and equipment to be supplied for each by each state are available from various sources including online if one looks enough.

They differed from the militias who typically provided their own firearms and most, if not all, colonies required the militiamen by law to have private firearms in good condition of a style and caliber in common usage and often set out the minimum requirement for powder and ball each were to have on hand as well as other combat applicable items. There were several acts in various colonies over the years as to this. I have read transcripts of some original acts in the past but it would likely take some time to find links or even the books at the moment (I am remodeling and most of my library is boxed up at the moment).

There were significant difference between the regulars and most of the militia, especially in level of formal military training and often equipment. Moreover, the regulars were paid soldiers whereas the militias were not typically. In some battles where the militia were used along side the regulars (remember that despite the folklore, most of the war was fought using European battle tactics), the militia lines did not hold and actually fled, especially in the face of bayonet charges, while the regulars were much better trained and more disciplined. Smarter generals eventually figured out how to use the militia troops effectively to harrass the enemy flanks or as fire and retreat units, as most notably used by Morgan at the Battle of Cowpens (http://www.nps.gov/archive/cowp/batlcowp.htm ).

While certain militia units were fierce and effective fighters, many others were composed of farmers and shop keepers above the typical service age without any formal military training beyond rudimentary community drilling in the town square. Furthermore, many of them were townsfolk and despite the folklore, were not out daily hunting for food. They went to the butcher like we do or raised their own livestock. Weapons were not their common stock in trade and they were not the stalwart, hard charging, hit a squirrel at 200 yds types, and many had generation old muskets with limited range and effectiveness. They were just regular people doing what they could for the cause. The more effective militia units tended to be formed from frontiersmen, hunters, Indian War veterns and other who lived closer to the wilderness and who engaged more in guerilla warfare. I have read other sources and diaries that indicate that these militiamen also tended to have rifles and be more sharpshooters as they depended often on their shooting skill for survival.

If you peruse the wikipedia entry for Francis "Swamp Fox" Marion who commanded a malitiamen unit there are references to the fact that militiamen, unlike Continental Army troops, "served without pay, supplied their own horses, arms, and often their food". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Marion

While that is not comprehensive and loosely referenced, I hope that it at least gives you something of what you wanted towards facts.
 

PT111

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, South Carolina, USA
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deepdiver - I appreciate that response and yes it was close to what I was asking and more. You mede several interesting points about the differences between the militia a regulars especially about their tendency to stay and fight. My G-G-(?)-Grandfather was one of those who fought and gave up the cause to come home and make preparations for British rule before Francis Marion took over the SC militia.

There are lots of legends about those who fought in the RW such things as the crack shots were, as you said overstated. Of course it would never have been won without the militia but I have not doubt that the bravado exhibited by those volunteers until shots started being fired resembles that exhibited by many of those today who put "Red Dawn" down as their favorite movie.

I wonder if the Founding Fathers could have looked 200 years into the future what, if any, changes would they have made in the drafting of the Constitution.
 

sjhipple

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I have not read all the posts on this thread so someone may have already posted it.



We can gain alot of information by looking at the laws passed by the first Congress. One of the laws they passed regarding the militia stated that you had to bring your own gun to participate in the mandatory militia. But there are two interesting things to note.

First, if you were in a artillery unit, you did not bring your own cannon.

Second, you could bring any gun suitable for military use



In United States v. Miller, the Supreme Court stated that the rule for deciding whether the 2nd Amendment applied to a specific gun was whether it was (a) suitable for military use and (b) in common use among the people (after all, if it wasn't in common use, you couldn't expect people to bring it with them could you?). It then went on to conclude (erroneously in my opinion) that sawed-off shotguns were not suitable fo rmilitary use and therefore not covered under the 2 Amendment.



When you view these two things together, you can see a very clear judicial standard coming forth where hand grenades and rocket launchers are not covered under the 2nd Amendment (anymore than you would bring your own artillary cannon to militia duty), while machine guns, handguns and rifles are.



No, this isn't a purist or philosophical argument, but it's an easy answer to the "So you think people should be allowed to own nuclear warheads?" The answer: no, it's not in common use and not something you would bringto militia duty.
 

Sa45auto

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ama-gi wrote:
I have not read all the posts on this thread so someone may have already posted it.



We can gain alot of information by looking at the laws passed by the first Congress. One of the laws they passed regarding the militia stated that you had to bring your own gun to participate in the mandatory militia. But there are two interesting things to note.

First, if you were in a artillery unit, you did not bring your own cannon.

Second, you could bring any gun suitable for military use



In United States v. Miller, the Supreme Court stated that the rule for deciding whether the 2nd Amendment applied to a specific gun was whether it was (a) suitable for military use and (b) in common use among the people (after all, if it wasn't in common use, you couldn't expect people to bring it with them could you?). It then went on to conclude (erroneously in my opinion) that sawed-off shotguns were not suitable fo rmilitary use and therefore not covered under the 2 Amendment.



When you view these two things together, you can see a very clear judicial standard coming forth where hand grenades and rocket launchers are not covered under the 2nd Amendment (anymore than you would bring your own artillary cannon to militia duty), while machine guns, handguns and rifles are.



No, this isn't a purist or philosophical argument, but it's an easy answer to the "So you think people should be allowed to own nuclear warheads?" The answer: no, it's not in common use and not something you would bringto militia duty.
Here fishy, fishy, fishey..........
 

imperialism2024

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ama-gi wrote:
I have not read all the posts on this thread so someone may have already posted it.



We can gain alot of information by looking at the laws passed by the first Congress. One of the laws they passed regarding the militia stated that you had to bring your own gun to participate in the mandatory militia. But there are two interesting things to note.

First, if you were in a artillery unit, you did not bring your own cannon.

Second, you could bring any gun suitable for military use



In United States v. Miller, the Supreme Court stated that the rule for deciding whether the 2nd Amendment applied to a specific gun was whether it was (a) suitable for military use and (b) in common use among the people (after all, if it wasn't in common use, you couldn't expect people to bring it with them could you?). It then went on to conclude (erroneously in my opinion) that sawed-off shotguns were not suitable fo rmilitary use and therefore not covered under the 2 Amendment.



When you view these two things together, you can see a very clear judicial standard coming forth where hand grenades and rocket launchers are not covered under the 2nd Amendment (anymore than you would bring your own artillary cannon to militia duty), while machine guns, handguns and rifles are.



No, this isn't a purist or philosophical argument, but it's an easy answer to the "So you think people should be allowed to own nuclear warheads?" The answer: no, it's not in common use and not something you would bringto militia duty.

Good insight, though I'd argue that hand grenades and shoulder-mounted RPGs are something suitable for militia duty, and IMHO would be more "common" if they weren't so illegal.

But I can see the applicability to artillary pieces, missiles, WMDs, etc.
 

asforme

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The true intent of the second amendment was to keep people as armed as the government so that we can never be the victims of tyranny. I would like to believe that there are no limits on that protection, but now I am rethinking that philosophy. Our government has nuclear weapons, does that mean that our right to keep and bear arms for the security of a free state includes citizens being allowed to possess nukes?

The reason carrying a gun works as a deterrent is because most people do not want to die, but when we live in a world where terrorists have no problem dieing as long as they take as many people as they can with them I'm starting to accept the fact that certain limits may be necessary. On the other hand, if we allow ourselves to be limited, as we have already, do we really have any defense against tyranny?

I would like to hear what others thoughts are on this issue.
 

Doug Huffman

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There are many more fundamental issues to be resolved before this one may properly be considered.

Exempli gratia, you limit your hypothetical to "citizens allowed to possess nukes" while our principle and fundamental documents apply to all men endowed by their Creator with unalienable Rights and only among these are the Right to Life, the Right to Liberty and the Right to Happiness. The Bill of Rights then, subsequently, goes on to enumerate the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

Arguably American citizens collectively do possess 'nukes'.

I was thinking of Suzanna Gratia Hupp when I wrote out the abbreviation 'e. g.'

Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA KMA$$
 
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