Encounters with Law Enforcement

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I'm a newby. I have had my Georgia permit less than 6 months. I have never open carried, but that doesn't mean I don't want to!

I CC - nearly everywhere. I have been "spotted" twice. Once in a grocery, a lady grabbed my arm as I rounded a corner and said, "Why don't you search HIM, why are you accusing me of stealing? Why don't you accuse HIM of stealing." Her motion to grab my arm pulled my untucked, and unbuttoned shirt over the top of my Glock 17 in my favorite tan holster (that I talk about below). She and the store clerk looked at my gun and I calmly recovered myself and said, "No thanks, not today."

That was that.

In same grocery store, late at night close to closing, I was dressed in a similar way and as I picked up my groceries the policewoman working security in the store spotted my fine leather holstered Glock. She didn't flinch, didn't say a word.

That was that.

In a gun shop recently, I was making a holster purchase. Trying to decide whether to go with or without the retention strap. As I was debating, out loud, I said, "But having the retention strap is probably a good idea if I decide to open carry."

Upon hearing this, the salesperson said, "Are you a police officer?"

I said no and he proceeded to say that he would never open carry in Georgia. He said he open carries in the store because he has the permission of the owner. But, he went on to say, if I am not a police officer and I open carry I run the risk of being "cuffed and tossed" immediately by police officers who may, in his words, "not be that familiar with the law."

This is why I have resisted the temptation to open carry.

Anyone have an encounter with a police officer while OC?

How did it go?

Was it a "that was that" encounter? Or do you have sidewalk burns and cuff marks for your stand on the 2nd Amendment?

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You may want to start here: http://www.georgiacarry.org/

I presume your CC license/permit allows open carry. If that is the case, then by all means, OC.

You ask: Was it a "that was that" encounter? Or do you have sidewalk burns and cuff marks for your stand on the 2nd Amendment?

I think if you browse this blog you will find both has happened. Have a nice day to your a$$ is sitting in jail.

I do both depending on the situation. With that said, I believe it depends on a number of factors.

Big city - little town?

High or low crime?

LEOs respected or not?

I believe before you do, I would attempt to talk to the police chief and try to find out his attitude about CC and OC. What is the departments policy. You should be able to find an information packet as to what the law allows and give it to the chief. That's what I did.

Appearance carries a lot of weight, Do you look like a punk or are you clean cut. Perception is half the battle.

Though you say Georgia, you don't give a general location in Georgia. I suggest you state that in your profile. Then others from your area may give you their thoughts.

I'm sure others will respond to your questions.

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I've OC'ed in Savannah without a problem. The cops (so far) haven't seemed to feel threatened by a clean-cut guy like myself with a firearm.

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Having been harassed by police, I can say it is definitelyan occupational hazard.

However, its the price we pay for reasserting our 2A rights.

That is to say, its potentially part of the deal.If youwould strongly ratheravoid experiencing it, stick with CC. I'm of the opinion that it takes a deliberate decisionto OC in support of 2A.

One thing for sure that does not work very well is to pretend that "It'll never happen to me."

Take a look at OpenRyan. He had a number of positive encounters with police in his suburb; the police seemed OK with OC.Then recently he ran into acop who gotout of line verbally. So even though it seemed rather safe, he still got harassed.


If you decide to OC to promote 2A, or for any reason, get yourself a voice-recorder and have it as part of your self-defense kit. Mine goes in my pocket before the holster goes on the belt. Also, you'll want to learn about your 4th Amendment rights, when police can detain you, when they can't, when they can search you and remove your weapon, and when they can't, etc. Its much easier to learn these things in advance and conduct yourself in a manner strategically advantageous, than afterwards and wishing you had done or said something differently. Also, you'll want to learn the firearms laws in your area thoroughly.

Not to scare you, but you have more than police to worry about. You also have gun-control advocates who might like nothing more than to publicly embarrass or harass you.

It may take a few run-ins with police before they get the idea they need to leave you alone. However, thats part of the game.

The positive side of it is that anti-gun police are good at pointing themselves out and showing you where you need to apply pressure. If they never said anything, you wouldn't know who needs attention. In a sense, they do you a big favor by identifying themselves and giving you a hard time. Now you know just who exactly needs attention.


OH! And a very important point. Police monitor thisforum. If you have a negative encounter with an LEO, do not--repeat--do not post itto the internet untilafter youget the Freedom of Information Act request complete response and you have the written complaint already on its way.You donot want the police to find creative ways to deny your FOIA requestbecause they found out on the internet that you intend to complain. If you have a negative LEO encounter and you need assistance withmaking a complaint or getting copies of the 911 call, radio dispatch recordings, in-car dash-cam video, etc, send a private message toa forum member you think you might trust from your state.

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You are SOOOO right Citizen! People who concider themselves kind, peaceful, gun-hating liberals, think nothing about lying to the police to get one gun off the street. Luckily, it still takes evidence and witnesses. But what if two of them are willing to lie together?:what: Ace

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ace1001 wrote:

You are SOOOO right Citizen! People who concider themselves kind, peaceful, gun-hating liberals, think nothing about lying to the police to get one gun off the street. Luckily, it still takes evidence and witnesses. But what if two of them are willing to lie together?:what: Ace

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Voice-recorder! Voice-recorder! Voice-recorder! Voice-recorder! Voice-recorder! Voice-recorder! Voice-recorder! Voice-recorder! Voice-recorder! Voice-recorder!

Also, I've learned from Unrequited's experience at Barnes & Noble. Immediately try to get witness statements onto the voice-recorder. Do not leave the police in control of the scene, especially if you have argued with the officer and he has an idea that you might complain, giving him thechance tomake suggestions tothe witness(es). Disarm at the car and come back if you have to.

Many public venues have security cameras. If its a nastysituation with possible legal problems, I'm already planning to ask the owners that the recordings are preserved. Or use them to my immediate advantage: "Mr. Citizen, we have a report that a man was seen waving a gun." "Alright, Officer. This herestore hasdozens of security cameras. Lets go right this instant to the security booth and check them." "It was security that called (lying)." "Good, then I'm sure they've preserved the tape. Lets go look at it."

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Michael, Rule #1, Don't listen to clerks in gun stores, they are generally idiots, especially when it comes to law and activism.

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VAopencarry wrote:

Michael, Rule #1, Don't listen to clerks in gun stores, they are generally idiots, especially when it comes to law and activism.

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:lol: You just KNOW you're going to hear that comment again and again, don't you?

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OH! And a very important point. Police monitor thisforum. If you have a negative encounter with an LEO, do not--repeat--do not post itto the internet untilafter youget the Freedom of Information Act request complete response and you have the written complaint already on its way.You donot want the police to find creative ways to deny your FOIA requestbecause they found out on the internet that you intend to complain. If you have a negative LEO encounter and you need assistance withmaking a complaint or getting copies of the 911 call, radio dispatch recordings, in-car dash-cam video, etc, send a private message toa forum member you think you might trust from your state.

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I've seen a number of posts here that warn of police monitoring the forum and I personally think this is a bit of paranoia. Yes, they probably do monitor the forum from time to time as they have nothing else better to do. Someone in some other thread said that I should not have said whatever it was that I said because if I was involved in an incident, they could use what I have on the computer against me.

I believe in being careful but at the same time I believe in being at least somewhat of an activist for our First and Second Amendment rights. I should not be in fear of saying something because the cops may be reading it. Guess what? I have done drugs before as well as sold them. Oh my God! I can hear the helicopters coming right now. DEA agents will surround my house within the next 24 hours because I may just have a couple of joints in my apartment right now!

In all seriousness, I strongly also believe in protecting our Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendment rights as well--the right prohibiting an unreasonable search and seizure, the right to remain silent and not testify against oneself, and the right to have legal counsel available when detained, arrested, or charged with a crime.

Protecting your rights shouldn't be taken to the point of paranoia. If you are not using your real name on the internet forums and you describe the incident without giving details that are too fine like the names/addresses, it is pretty hard for the police to even find it here and even if they find it here, it is pretty hard for them to trace it to the real incident. The fact that they are even interested in it is probably slim. They are not likely to base their prosecution of a crime on something someone said on the internet. If someone wants to vent about an incident as I have in the past, they should feel free to do so but use simple common sense. Like when I mentioned the bar fight I was involved in, I did not mention the name of the bar, the location (I don't recall even mentioning the city or state), I haven't given my name, or anybody else's names as well. So how are the police going to find me if they are that interested in following up on an unreported case that they saw on the net? They would have to get a subpoena to the forums to get the IP address and take it from there.

So you should be able to say what you want just don't reveal so much information that they can actually trace the online you to the real you or visa versa. Or at least they wouldn't have probable cause to get the necessary subpoenas to do so. As much as the police are an oppressive force representing the State people also give them too much credit. They do not have the resources to watch every person's move all the time. I've known radical demonstrators who believe that the FBI is literally watching their every move, has their home and car bugged, phones tapped, etc. Yes, they probably have a file on the person but I highly doubt that they are being watched for very long if at all. So what if a couple of LEOs are reading this post. F-ck em. Free speech. Go finish your donut.

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protector84 wrote:

I've seen a number of posts here that warn of police monitoring the forum and I personally think this is a bit of paranoia.

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Dude, it's not baseless paranoia...you can easily be tracked down by your IP address. Takes 1 call to your ISP and they'll be knocking your door down.

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Another point, they cannot use hearsay as evidence in court. When they say that "anything you say can and will be used against you" it refers to what you say to THEM, not something they overhear. If you admit to the cops that you really did steal that TV, then of course they can use that in court against you. However, let's say you are a suspect in stealing the TV, you really did steal the TV, but the police don't have evidence to arrest you. Later, a plain-clothes cop in a public place (say a bar or coffee shop) overhears you talking to your friends and admit that you took the TV and sold it to so-and-so. They may have probable cause to go and question so-and-so, get warrants for both of your residences, vehicles, etc. Let's say that they do all of that andno TV is found as well asno other evidence that actually proves beyond a reasonable doubt that you did take that TV, andtheir only evidence is what they overheard you say toyour friends as well astheir hunch that you did it. The truth is that you cannot be convicted on that alone. Hearsay may put you in the spotlight but without some form of confirmatory evidence, it cannot by itself put you in the slammer.

So let's say that I admitted to having illegal items in my house right now. Again, they would have to get subpoenas to identify the real me from the online me and then they would have to get a search warrant for the residence. All of those documents require probable cause and a judge's signature. It just isn't that likely to happen and even if it did, a decent lawyer could probably find something bogus about the warrants.

So without going on further, I do believe in keeping your mouth shut to law enforcement but I do not believe you need to have to keep it shut to everybody else.

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protector84 wrote:

SNIP I've seen a number of posts here that warn of police monitoring the forum and I personally think this is a bit of paranoia.

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I'm not sure how its a bit of paranoia. Although I did not give the actual circumstance that gave rise to my advice, I did provide the principle behind it.

The circumstance is fairly easily related. A forum member hadadecidedly negative encounter with some LEO's.He posted about it on OCDO, the same evening if I recall. We all yakked about it, gave advice, and made comments thatwould have been better if they hadn't been seen by police, thus giving them a heads up.

The forum member sent his complaint and Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request, and lo and behold, the policesupervisor responded that he was refusing the member's entire FOIA request on bogus grounds, and that he had already heard about the incident--FROM READING THIS FORUM.

We have additional circumstanstial evidence that the police, being alerted to the coming complaint and FOIA, may have caused a witness to seek legal advice and clam up merely by police questioning that would not have occurred if they had not been alerted to the coming complaint and FOIA. In short, it looks like the forum membermay not have been able toget favorable witnessstatements to support his complaint because, having been alerted, the police naturally went and talked to the witness, and the witnessmay havebecomescared of being involved in something serious or litigation, and refused to talk further with the forum member.

I stand by my advice. If you have a negative encounter with police, don't post it on this or any other forum until you have 1) all the police audio, video,and documents, and 2) have sent the complaint.

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Dude, it's not baseless paranoia...you can easily be tracked down by your IP address. Takes 1 call to your ISP and they'll be knocking your door down.

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Where do you see my IP address? The board owners have it but it is not publically displayed on the net that I have seen. They would have to contact the owners to reveal the IP address of the post and to secure their case, they would need a subpoena to get them to release that information. Once they have used it to identify your ISP, they have to get another subpoena to get them to turn over the personal information. Then they need to get a search warrant to come "knocking your door down." Sure they can do that if they want to but they usually won't do it unless it isa case worth pursuing and they are quite sure that those court documents will get them the evidence they want. If they don't feel that someone's blogging or net posts are likely to give them enough evidence to bring a conviction, they probably won't waste their time. Look at how many people's MySpace pages and other blogs talk openly about drug use, partying, underage drinking, and other illegal activities. There are even MySpace pages out there showing pictures of marijuana and the person and his/her friends smoking it. Yet you never hear of houses being raided over a blog post or image on a MySpace account. Give me a break! I'm sure there are many prostitutes who use the internet to recruit clients yet there is probably still a small percentage of them who get arrested that way. The cops do not have the resources to check every single thing that goes on all the time not to mention that most of them aren't that brilliant either. Just look at how well they shoot.

I can see where you are going with this, however. Although the "hearsay" cannot by itself bring a conviction, it can give them probable cause to put the spotlight on you and investigate further so if you really are up to something, it wouldn't make sense to unnecessarily attract attention. But let's say LEOs took my joke about having drugs in my apartment seriously. Here is how stupid it would go down. Say some small town cop in Idaho reads it so he notifies DEA and DEA actually takes it seriously and gets all of those subpoenas and warrants and comes into my house with the drug dogs. They tear the whole place up and cannot find anything. Guess what happens? Their idiocy is exposed all over the news and 30 days later they are hit with a nasty lawsuit. I can envision it in tomorrow's paper:

"DEA raids house over internet post: no drugs found"



Let's say that my address hasn't been updated on my driver's license.

"DEA raids wrong house over internet post: no drugs found, grandmother and kids traumatized"

Again, the cops and feds can be scary but they are not as powerful as they want us to believe. I hope you don't honestly belive that there is an entire FBI team sitting at a long rectangular table right now as we speak discussing what they are reading in this thread.

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I stand by my advice. If you have a negative encounter with police, don't post it on this or any other forum until you have 1) all the police audio, video,and documents, and 2) have sent the complaint.

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I still don't see an issue with posting the incident just as long as the following apply:

A) Your real name is not used

B) The names of other people are not used

C) The details provided are vague enough that it cannot be linked to the actual incident and googling for the real incident wouldn't pull up your post

For instance, you can mention what took place during the traffic stop without posting the name of the agency or the location of the stop. You don't need to mention the race, gender, height, and weight of every officer at the scene. There is usually a way of describing an incident while omitting enough details for preventing your description of the incident from being pinpointed to theactual incident.

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protector84 wrote:

SNIP The truth is that you cannot be convicted on that alone. Hearsay may put you in the spotlight but without some form of confirmatory evidence, it cannot by itself put you in the slammer.

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I think there is a lot more room than just primary evidence.

Here is the same link provided in that earlier thread: http://tinyurl.com/2vbh49.

Here is the relevant section of the article, highlights mine:

Last issue Dave Duffy also told you the story of Matt Bandy and some pretty scary stuff about computer security that you REALLY need to know. He and the experts whom he sources know a whole lot more about that than I, but I can add one thing to that discussion: I’m in my 34th year as a sworn police officer, my 19th as a certified “police prosecutor,” and I know for a fact that we DO have the technology to pull things out of your hard drive that you thought were deleted. We DO have the right to ask you, under penalty of perjury, whether you post on any Internet forum, and under what name, and we DO have the power to subpoena any posts via your IP from the Internet hosts, who under law have no choice but to “give you up.” Don’t let the seeming anonymity of the Internet delude you: when things get serious, you won’t be anonymous anymore. --Massad Ayoob.

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Attn: protector84 - Citizen is trying to impart a little bit of knowledge/wisdom.

I would hate to see Citizen say: "I told you so."

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The internet is not nearly as anonymous as the prior poster suggests - the remark about tracing IP adresses is well made. The Man can now get "trap & trace/pen register taps" without a warrant. Simple "traffic anaysis" of such information can yield valuable "intelligence" even absent tapes andtranscripts. "Carnivore" and such "packet sniffers" can be installed at your IP, and it's illegal for the IP to tell about it. Nevermind how I know about this.

Admitting to selling dope in an on-line forum is rather dumb, frankly, not least in a gun advocacy forum. JMO. I'm reminded of the mob quote "never say anything on the phone that you don't want to hear played back at your trial."

Another mob dictum to live by: "you can only be betrayed by those you trust."

-ljp

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Citizen wrote:

OH! And a very important point. Police monitor thisforum. If you have a negative encounter with an LEO, do not--repeat--do not post itto the Internet untilafter youget the Freedom of Information Act request complete response and you have the written complaint already on its way.You donot want the police to find creative ways to deny your FOIA requestbecause they found out on the Internet that you intend to complain. If you have a negative LEO encounter and you need assistance withmaking a complaint or getting copies of the 911 call, radio dispatch recordings, in-car dash-cam video, etc, send a private message toa forum member you think you might trust from your state.

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I believe they do monitor the site. When we had an open carry meeting we announced the place and time on this site. By some strange coincidence a local patrol car drove through the lot at the same time as our meeting, slowed down when he saw my opencarry.org sign and eyeballed us (we were still in our cars at the time). The patrol car then left the parking lot and we didn't see it again. It may have been a coincidence but my paranoia thinks not.

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I'm the pOlice, OOGA BOOGA OOGA!!!

I very much have to control my laughter when I read some of your posts. I can assure you, we have much more better things to do, like drink coffee and eat doughnuts, then to try and suppress a people who are well within the law. We do not scour the internet for hours on end hoping to find people NOT breaking the law.

Venator, were I the street cop who came along and saw your sign, I would have stopped to PARTICIPATE with your group. I am not doing my job if I don't take the iniative to learn the concerns of the very people in my district that I serve.

In fact, you sound like you would be very surprised to learn the most of us cops wish all responsible adults would carry guns. Remember, as opined by the Supreme Court of the United States, it is not our duty to protect individuals in our society, but to protect society as a whole. Since you are taking it upon yourself to do so, you have the unspoken respect of every cop out there.

But, by perpetuating an unfounded theory that the very people who took an oath to uphold the constitution are in fact trying to destroy it, you yourself are creating a hostile and damaging relationship without reason.

Keep in mind that the average street cop deals with a very narrow section of the law based largely on the population he serves. Everywhere, cops are intimately familiar with domestic violence laws, because everywhere there is domestic violence. On the west coast, cops are very knowledgeable about crystal meth. I work and live in Florida. I have never seen in my eight years as a cop crystal meth. It just hasn't made it here. But I am very familiar about cocaine, crack cocaine, weed, ecstacy, and other rave drugs.

If you are one of a very small group of people who open carry, I guarantee you a cop will stop you, call for backup, then get his 1000 page book of statutes, and flip open to find what the law says about open carry. It is an uncommon occurrance. Once he figures out you are within the law, he will bid you farewell. He was not wrong to stop you, either. It is called "good faith." He truly believed that a crime was possibly occurring.

Do not believe that we are so arrogant that we will not listen to you, either. I gave my dad a Glock 22 for Christmas and he wanted to know if it was within the law to carry his gun in his truck without a permit. Instead of telling him, I printed the law from the Florida State Statutes website, highlighted the relevant wording, and told him to keep it in his truck. If cop told him he was in violation of the law, my dad being a reasonable man, would politely offer the cop his copy of the state law. When two reasonable adults discuss a situation at hand, it will always end with an aimicable result.

I am very open for any questions that any of you may have. And instead of shying from the pOlice, invite them for discussion.

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ChopperCopper wrote:

SNIPI can assure you, we have much more better things to do, like drink coffee and eat doughnuts, then to try and suppress a people who are well within the law.

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I am very open for any questions that any of you may have. And instead of shying from the pOlice, invite them for discussion.

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Welcome to OCDO!!!

Glad you don't have the time. We've met a number who decided they did.

That second part is liable to go onfor quite a while. I recommendusing the search engine for key words. Many of thethings you mention have been rebutted, discussed, argued, etc. At length.

Enjoy your stay!