Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: U of Utah says they have a "secret" AG opinion allowing them to ban open carry by

  1. #1
    Moderator / Administrator
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    8,711

    Post imported post

    http://www.sltrib.com/ci_7658204
    Pro-gun students push for right to openly carry firearms on U. campus
    By Brian Maffly
    The Salt Lake Tribune
    [/url]
    Article Last Updated:12/07/2007 06:35:25 AM MST

    A pro-gun student group is gearing up to again challenge the University of Utah on its weapons policies, this time seeking approval for what they view as their right to openly carry weapons on campus.

    U. administrators are "circumventing the Legislature" and creating their own laws, allege members of Second Amendment Students of Utah, who want to meet with U. officials to hash out their diametrically opposed positions on Utah gun laws.
    "Guns have been vilified. We are lucky we live in a state where open carry is still legal," said group member Thomas McCrory, a U. accounting major. "It's a rare thing and it should be preserved."

    McCrory's concealed weapons permit allows him to be armed on campus, but he risks expulsion if he were to wear his handgun openly under the university's interpretation of a statute that specifically bars firearms on school campuses.

    "There is an exception for concealed-weapon permit holders. That does not mean a permit holder can carry a weapon openly," said U. general counsel John Morris, citing a supportive opinion from the office of Attorney General Mark Shurtleff. Morris declined to get into the specifics of the opinion, which he said is subject to client-attorney privilege.

    "The letter concluded that we are legally permitted to prohibit the open carrying of weapons on campus," Morris said. "Unless the attorney general says we're wrong, we're going to continue to prohibit open carry on campus."

    U. administrators earlier this year resolved a long stand-off with lawmakers over whether public universities could ban weapons subject to valid concealed-carry permits. After losing in the Utah Supreme Court, U. leaders agreed to a legislative "compromise" in which concealed weapons are allowed everywhere on campus, with "exceptions" for secure hearing rooms and dorm rooms of students who prefer living with roommates who are not licensed to carry a concealed weapon.

    But gun-rights advocates are not yet ready to declare victory and call for peace.

    "I am not a huge flag waver for open carry, however, your concealed carry
    permit does not require you to conceal your firearm," said Clark Aposhian, chairman of the Utah Shooting Sports Council. "Utah law is that Utahns may openly carry firearms . . . When someone tells me I can't do something that I know I can, I'm going to argue with them."

    Pro-gun students contend openly carried guns are a matter of personal comfort and should not be construed as a menace.

    "I don't open carry to make a political statement. Whether I open carry has more to do with the weather. Where it's a hot day I would open carry. On a day like today, I would carry it under my coat," said McCrory, a paraplegic who uses a wheelchair and arms himself for personal protection.

    "I would hope that if someone sees a gun, they would come to the rational conclusion that if this person is intent to do harm, he wouldn't be carrying a gun for everyone to see. When I see someone with a gun I think here is one of the good guys who has gone through the class and the background checks."

    U. officials see it differently.

    "Openly carrying weapons in an academic environment is going to make people very nervous," Morris said. "As an academic matter, it's a bad idea."

    An ardent gun-rights lobbyist, Aposhian said he does not envision seeking legislation to force the U. to embrace open carry because he believes Utah law clearly allows it.

    "I'm not immune to [the U.'s] concerns," he said. "That's why I say let's sit down and chat about it."
    ---
    * BRIAN MAFFLY can be reached at 891-257-2089 or bmaffly@sltrib.com.

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Erie, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    108

    Post imported post

    Good job Mr. Aposhian

  3. #3
    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Loudoun County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    683

    Post imported post

    So he has a secret AG opinon does he? Well I have a double top secret permit from the President which states I can OC any dang place I wish, and he can't see them so there!

    Seriously, this is from an adminastratorat an institute of HIGHER learning? Whatare his credentials in, folklore and fairytales?
    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when you’re serious and when you’re being sarcastic. –Abraham Lincoln

  4. #4
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    ChinChin wrote:
    Seriously, this is from an adminastratorat an institute of HIGHER learning? Whatare his credentials in, folklore and fairytales?

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Payson, Utah, USA
    Posts
    1,146

    Post imported post

    is a college considered a "school"? cause be careful guys, they might bust out the "the law states 1000'" crap... or would a college go under a diff category?

  6. #6
    Moderator / Administrator
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    8,711

    Post imported post

    b1ack5mith wrote:
    is a college considered a "school"? cause be careful guys, they might bust out the "the law states 1000'" crap... or would a college go under a diff category?
    What on earth are you talking about? Be specific - cite the statute you believe applies to the facts above.

  7. #7
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Bear, Delaware, USA
    Posts
    1,241

    Post imported post

    Mike wrote:
    b1ack5mith wrote:
    is a college considered a "school"? cause be careful guys, they might bust out the "the law states 1000'" crap... or would a college go under a diff category?
    What on earth are you talking about? Be specific - cite the statute you believe applies to the facts above.
    He's probably refering to the school/recreation safe zone -- though I don't know Utah's statutes, if it does, it will specifically state if it refers to K-12, college, public or private.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Houston, Texas, USA
    Posts
    180

    Post imported post

    b1ack5mith wrote:
    is a college considered a "school"? cause be careful guys, they might bust out the "the law states 1000'" crap... or would a college go under a diff category?
    I think you are talking about the federal "Gun-Free School Zones Act."

    1--That only applies to K-12 schools.
    2--There is an exception for people licensed to carry, and under Utah law thse with a carry permit can carry in any school
    3--The federal government is very hesitant to prosecute under the act as a previous version was struck down as unconstitutional



  9. #9
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Bear, Delaware, USA
    Posts
    1,241

    Post imported post

    hirundo82 wrote:
    b1ack5mith wrote:
    is a college considered a "school"? cause be careful guys, they might bust out the "the law states 1000'" crap... or would a college go under a diff category?
    I think you are talking about the federal "Gun-Free School Zones Act."

    1--That only applies to K-12 schools.
    2--There is an exception for people licensed to carry, and under Utah law thse with a carry permit can carry in any school
    3--The federal government is very hesitant to prosecute under the act as a previous version was struck down as unconstitutional

    Some states have their own versions that are more restrictive -- here in Delaware, it's K-12 and college or universities, public or private. In addition, any structure that's used for recreation, such as a stadium. Not sure if Utah has a state version on the books; though, after a quick search it looks as though there is no exception for licensed folks in that state. (http://www.davekopel.com/2A/OpEds/Gun-Free-Zones.htm -- search for the word 'Utah')

    In Utah, there is no “gun free schools” exception to the licensed carry law.
    I can't back this up with an actual statute at the moment, but I'm running out of the door.

  10. #10
    Regular Member UtahRSO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Lehi, Utah, USA
    Posts
    146

    Post imported post

    76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.
    (1) A person may not possess any dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501, at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises as defined in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1).
    (2) (a) Possession of a dangerous weapon on or about school premises is a class B misdemeanor.
    (b) Possession of a firearm or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises is a class A misdemeanor.
    (3) This section does not apply if:
    (a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided
    under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523, or as otherwise authorized by law;
    (b) the possession is approved by the responsible school administrator;
    (c) the item is present or to be used in connection with a lawful, approved activity and is in the possession or under the control of the person responsible for its possession or use; or
    (d) the possession is:
    (i) at the person's place of residence or on the person's property;
    (ii) in any vehicle lawfully under the person's control, other than a vehicle owned by the school or used by the school to transport students; or
    (iii) at the person's place of business which is not located in the areas described in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1)(a)(i), (ii), or (iv).
    (4) This section does not prohibit prosecution of a more serious weapons offense that may occur on or about school premises.

  11. #11
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lebanon, VA
    Posts
    676

    Post imported post

    Wynder wrote:
    Some states have their own versions that are more restrictive -- here in Delaware, it's K-12 and college or universities, public or private. In addition, any structure that's used for recreation, such as a stadium. Not sure if Utah has a state version on the books; though, after a quick search it looks as though there is no exception for licensed folks in that state. (http://www.davekopel.com/2A/OpEds/Gun-Free-Zones.htm -- search for the word 'Utah')
    Correct me if I am wrong, but it's my understanding that the Delaware gun-free schools law is Del. Code Title 11, § 1457, which only appears to enhahnce the penalties for specified weapons violations committed within the designated school or recreation schools. Therefore, the Delaware law imposes no restriction on where a person with a CCDW license may carry. If there is some other Delaware state law I have missed , please let me know

    § 1457. Possession of a weapon in a Safe School and Recreation Zone; class D, E, or F: class A or B misdemeanor.

    (a) Any person who commits any of the offenses described in subsection (b) of this section, or any juvenile who possesses a firearm or other deadly weapon, and does so while in or on a "Safe School and Recreation Zone" shall be guilty of the crime of possession of a weapon in a Safe School and Recreation Zone.

    (b) The underlying offenses in Title 11 shall be:

    (1) Section 1442. -- Carrying a concealed deadly weapon; class G felony; class E felony.

    (2) Section 1444. -- Possessing a destructive weapon; class E felony.

    (3) Section 1446. -- Unlawfully dealing with a switchblade knife; unclassified misdemeanor.

    (4) Section 1448. -- Possession and purchase of deadly weapons by persons prohibited; class F felony.

    (5) Section 1452. -- Unlawfully dealing with knuckles-combination knife; class B misdemeanor.

    (6) Section 1453. -- Unlawfully dealing with martial arts throwing star; class B misdemeanor.

    (c) For the purpose of this section, "Safe School and Recreation Zone" shall mean:

    (1) Any building, structure, athletic field, sports stadium or real property owned, operated, leased or rented by any public or private school including, but not limited to, any kindergarten, elementary, secondary or vocational-technical school or any college or university, within 1,000 feet thereof; or

    (2) Any motor vehicle owned, operated, leased or rented by any public or private school including, but not limited to, any kindergarten, elementary, secondary, or vocational-technical school or any college or university; or

    (3) Any building or structure owned, operated, leased or rented by any county or municipality, or by the State, or by any board, agency, commission, department, corporation or other entity thereof, or by any private organization, which is utilized as a recreation center, athletic field or sports stadium.

    (d) Nothing in this section shall be construed to preclude or otherwise limit a prosecution of or conviction for a violation of this chapter or any other provision of law. A person may be convicted both of the crime of possession of a weapon in a Safe School and Recreation Zone and of the underlying offense as defined elsewhere by the laws of the State.

    (e) It shall not be a defense to a prosecution for a violation of this section that the person was unaware that the prohibited conduct took place on or in a Safe School and Recreation Zone.

    (f) It shall be an affirmative defense to a prosecution for a violation of this section that the weapon was possessed pursuant to an authorized course of school instruction, or for the purpose of engaging in any legitimate sporting or recreational activity. The affirmative defense established in this section shall be proved by a preponderance of the evidence. Nothing herein shall be construed to establish an affirmative defense with respect to a prosecution for any offense defined in any other section of this chapter.

    (g) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution for a violation of this section that the prohibited conduct took place entirely within a private residence, and that no person under the age of 18 was present in such private residence at any time during the commission of the offense. The affirmative defense established in this section shall be proved by the defendant by a preponderance of the evidence. Nothing herein shall be construed to establish an affirmative defense with respect to a prosecution for an offense defined in any other section of this chapter.

    (h) This section shall not apply to any law enforcement or police officer, or to any security officer as defined in Chapter 13 of Title 24.

    (i) For purposes of this section only, "deadly weapon" shall include any object described in § 222(5) or (11) of this title or BB guns.

    (j) The penalty for possession of a weapon in a Safe School and Recreation Zone shall be:

    (1) If the underlying offense is a class B misdemeanor, the crime shall be a class A misdemeanor;

    (2) If the underlying offense is an unclassified misdemeanor, the crime shall be a class B misdemeanor;

    (3) If the underlying offense is a class E, F, or G felony, the crime shall be one grade higher than the underlying offense.

    (4) In the event that an elementary or secondary school student possesses a firearm or other deadly weapon in a Safe School and Recreation Zone in addition to any other penalties contained in this section, the student shall be expelled by the local School Board or charter school board of directors for a period of not less than 180 days unless otherwise provided for in federal or state law. (70 Del. Laws, c. 213, § 1; 74 Del. Laws, c. 131, §§ 1-4.)
    James M. "Jim" Mullins, Jr., Esq.
    Admitted to practice in West Virginia and Florida.

    Founder, Past President, Treasurer, and General Counsel, West Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
    Life Member, NRA

  12. #12
    Moderator / Administrator
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    8,711

    Post imported post

    Update: Salt Lake tribune says gun carry should stay in teh closet on cmapus; gun carriers subject to police interrogations at will.

    See http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_7688004#

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •