Open carry when a police officer knocks

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Citizen wrote:

The 4th and 5th Amendment are there for our protection. Might as well practice using them. One can be very friendly while asserting one's rights.

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Had the officer asked me about the legality of my weapon I would have immediately questioned his need to have that information based on everything you just said.

I had an officer many years ago see my concealed pistol as I bent over. He asked if that was a weapon. I told him that it was and that I had a CCW permit and asked if he wanted to see it. He did and I showed it to him.

What followed was a debate over the jurisdiction of that permit. Even after making two calls downtown, he was not convinced that it was legal in his county. He "let me go" and "let me keep my weapon" but told me that I needed to double check the accuracy of my understanding. I politely suggested that he do the same.

He was abrand new officer so I figured that he got a little education eventually. He was decent but I was prepared to exert my rights.

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Ghettokracker71 wrote:

Way back before I owned firearms,and was really on the second ammendment/self defense thing, I called the cops on my roommate (heard a bunch of banging,and he just happened to come home when it was going on.) and they asked if I had any weapons to put them away,and come let the officers in. It makes me mad now thinking about it, b/c I was locked in my room, but if I was to go unlock the door "disarmed" as they asked me to,and had a confrontation,....:banghead:

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I think this is one of those situations where an honest error could have been made on the part of the dispatcher or the officers. You know--something like the dispatcher didn't quite tell the officers that a burglar might be inside the house, so when they arrive the officersradio the dispatcher to ask you to let them in.

I think sometimes we have to assume someelement of the message didn't get through or wasn't recognized, and be patient about having to resend that part of the message.Anduse judgement about following police requests, even orders. "Get down, NOW!!" "Not on thathill of fire-ants, Officer."

I do like the assumption that you might have aweaponfor home defense!

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HardChrome,

Your profile says Newport News...so I am guessing it was the NNPD?

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The two incidents I mentioned earlier regarding an officer (and officers) coming on my property were as follows.

Incident #1

In 1997 when my oldest daughter graduated with her master's from James Madison, she came home with us that evening. Her boyfriend (now husband) decided to go out with a friend and celebrate a little. So around 1:00am, my daughter was awakened by a scary sound. She came into our master bedroom and told my wife and I that it sounded like someone was throwing pebbles or stones against her window. Just as she was telling us this, several loud bangs/knocks occurred against a basement window.. the one I had always felt would be the one someone might break to enter the house.

Immediately, I grabbed my gun (a Taurus PT92C) and a phone and headed to the living room where I had control over the basement stairs door. I called 911 and this is basically what transpired.

Arl: 911, what is your emergency?
Me: I think someone is trying to break into my house.
Arl: What is your name and address?
Me: <giving the info>
Arl: Where is the noise coming from?
Me: The basement.
Arl: Ok, I've notified officers in the area and they're on the way. Do you have a weapon?
Me: Yes.
Arl: What is it?
Me: A handgun.
Arl: Do you have it with you?
Me: Yes.
Arl: Ok, that's fine. When the officers get there just don't shoot through the window.
Me: (laughing a little) No, I wouldn't do that.

When the officers got there, I opened the door and identified myself as the homeowner. I then took them around the side of the house to the window from where the loud banging had come from.

It all turned out to be my daughter's boyfriend (who was gone from the scene). He and his friend had a little too much to drink and he decided he wanted to see my daughter.


Incident #2

Around 6:20am one Sunday morning, someone knocked loudly on my front door. I grabbed my gun (a Smith & Wesson 411) and headed to the living room. Leaning at an abrupt angle, I was able to see the officer through the door window without him seeing me. I opened the door and he identified himself and asked if my youngest daughter was in and if so, could he speak with her. I said she was and let him in. As I did, I put my gun on a speaker and motioned to him that it was there. He said, "that's fine.. no problem".

Turned out that a close friend of my daughter had run away from home because of an argue between her and her mother, and she had not returned home. The mother was worried and called the police, giving my daughter's name as someone who might know where she was. Everything turned out fine.

Both of these incidents occurred when we lived in Arlington, Va.

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Citizen wrote:

LEO229 wrote: SNIP "They did not have to tell me and I do appreciate it. I will not order them out and remove it. You are just telling the officer.. so he will know that you are both armed."


Part of the problem is that police and well-meaning citizens sometimes over-look the fact that there are rude, abusive,rights-infringing, etc. police.

Once the notification leaves your lips, you can't take it back if you only then discover its an abusive police officer.

You have no way of knowing at the outset of an encounter if the niceofficer you're facing is going to become rude, mistreat you, seize your weapon, run the serial number, etc. later in the encounter, say, after you notify him you are carrying. Unless he is not a stranger, or perhaps its small-town USA where you reside.

The bottom line is that it is dangerous to assume the cop is a good guy. The danger may be very mild, which would mean itis a small risk to take. It may be higher, for example if you have a third-hand gunthat was, unknown to you,reported stolen by a previous owner and the officer decides to run the serial number because its "just routine, you don't mind do you, sir?"

Its up to each how much risk he wants to take in dealing with police. Part of the problem is thatyou may not have all the information you need at the beginning of an encounter to evaluate whether the risk is small or large.

The 4th and 5th Amendment are there for our protection. Might as well practice using them. One can be very friendly while asserting one's rights.

Courtesy when you are holding all the cards on your own property is one thing. Its a little different when you're not holding all the cards. Included isthat at the outset of an encounter, you may not even know which cardsyou and the officer are holding--except that you are always holding some aces: the 4th and 5th Amendment.

Play them well.

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Come on...

You can tell the moment the are at your window.

Allow me to educate you...

Boy... I need to see your License, Registration, Proof of insurance.... NOW!

I stopped you for doin' 70 in a 65 and you got no front tag..... Give me your license and proof of insurance.

You 'iz in my county now... Give me yo' license and keep 'dem hands where I can see 'um~!



Better just keep your yap shut if you were this type of talk.

If the officer walks up and does the following:

• Greeting of the day
• Provides name
• Provides department name
• Identifies why you were stopped
• Asks if there is a valid reason you were breaking the law
• Speaks in a normal tone of voice
• Willing to hear you speak
• Does not demand your license right away

There you have a professional.

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If it were me I would have had it concealed, because you can do that in your own home/property even without a permit. But it sounds like it worked out well for you so nice job

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LEO 229 wrote:

SNIP Come on...

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You can tell the moment they are at your window.

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Please see the thread wherea northern VA driver voice-recorded a police officer attempting to intimidate him intogiving up4th Amendmentrights at future traffic stops byreporting the likelyapplication of unjustified lethal force. Thatofficer was rather neutral in his initial approach.

Nope. Professional-seeming officers caninfringe your rights, misinterpret your words, creatively interpret the law, etc., etc., etc.just as easily as the one's who act like jerks the moment they arrive at your door.

Also, lets not forget the part about policeofficers are human. The part where even honest police officerscan make mistakes, have a bad day,can't be expected to know all the laws,may have been given false information by the 911 caller, etc.

Now, if the police officer was truly professional, he would recognize these various things and would berather understandingwhen a citizencourteously asserted his constitutional rights. If theOfficer was really, really, committed to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, he wouldquietly smile to himself andfeel glad, although perhaps not until the stop was over.

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TheApostle wrote:

HardChrome,

Your profile says Newport News...so I am guessing it was the NNPD?

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Yes, Newport News PD.

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Citizen wrote:

Great contact!

It might not hurt to send an appreciative note.

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I've been trying to get my head around this reasoning. An officer shows up and interacts with you while you have a firearm on your hip and it is a non event so I should send a note to the supervisor? This seems like a joke.

If I'm in my yard having a drink and an officer comes up for some reason and doesn't arrest me for Drunk in public; should I send a note then? If I get pulled over and get a warning for a light out, do I send a note thanking them for not busting me with reckless driving?

A gun on my hip is a tool and there just like the knife/multitool on the opposite side. I don't see officers getting complements for not running the serial numbers on my gerber.

I'm not saying there aren't circumstances where a letter is not warranted (professional handling of man with gun call), but just interacting with a citizen in his home not even on the radar.

I have had police at my house a couple of times and I was OC. One officer commented on my choice of sidearm as he was leaving. The rest pretended they never saw it. Non issues as they should be!

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That's pretty much how I feel about it. I only mentioned it here because that is what we do here.

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coltcarrier wrote:

SNIP I've been trying to get my head around this reasoning. An officer shows up and interacts with you while you have a firearm on your hip and it is a non event so I should send a note to the supervisor?

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I understand.

Being human, they appreciate a kind word or compliment as much as the next guy. They probably already get far more complaints than compliments as it is.

It helps let the good-guys on their team know their professionalism is both differentiated from the not-so-professional, andappreciated.

And, you tend to get more of what you validate.

It also shows the OC'er to have a bit of class. And it never hurts to develop some friends, if possible.

All around, its almost a no-lose proposition. About the only liability is wasting your time writing the note if itfalls on deaf ears.

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HardChrome wrote:

I opened the door a little and told him that I wanted to step back inside and remove my weapon. He said to not worry about it as if he fully trusted me.

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I'm glad everything turned out fine for you. The only thing I don't agree with is disarming; I know you wanted to be courteous, but I think I would have kept my gun. But I understand your thought process, and I wasn't in your shoes.

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LEO 229 wrote:

Citizen wrote:

LEO229 wrote: SNIP "They did not have to tell me and I do appreciate it. I will not order them out and remove it. You are just telling the officer.. so he will know that you are both armed."


Part of the problem is that police and well-meaning citizens sometimes over-look the fact that there are rude, abusive,rights-infringing, etc. police.

Once the notification leaves your lips, you can't take it back if you only then discover its an abusive police officer.

You have no way of knowing at the outset of an encounter if the niceofficer you're facing is going to become rude, mistreat you, seize your weapon, run the serial number, etc. later in the encounter, say, after you notify him you are carrying. Unless he is not a stranger, or perhaps its small-town USA where you reside.

The bottom line is that it is dangerous to assume the cop is a good guy. The danger may be very mild, which would mean itis a small risk to take. It may be higher, for example if you have a third-hand gunthat was, unknown to you,reported stolen by a previous owner and the officer decides to run the serial number because its "just routine, you don't mind do you, sir?"

Its up to each how much risk he wants to take in dealing with police. Part of the problem is thatyou may not have all the information you need at the beginning of an encounter to evaluate whether the risk is small or large.

The 4th and 5th Amendment are there for our protection. Might as well practice using them. One can be very friendly while asserting one's rights.

Courtesy when you are holding all the cards on your own property is one thing. Its a little different when you're not holding all the cards. Included isthat at the outset of an encounter, you may not even know which cardsyou and the officer are holding--except that you are always holding some aces: the 4th and 5th Amendment.

Play them well.

Click to expand...

Come on...

You can tell the moment the are at your window.

Allow me to educate you...

Boy... I need to see your License, Registration, Proof of insurance.... NOW!

I stopped you for doin' 70 in a 65 and you got no front tag..... Give me your license and proof of insurance.

You 'iz in my county now... Give me yo' license and keep 'dem hands where I can see 'um~!



Better just keep your yap shut if you were this type of talk.

If the officer walks up and does the following:

• Greeting of the day
• Provides name
• Provides department name
• Identifies why you were stopped
• Asks if there is a valid reason you were breaking the law
• Speaks in a normal tone of voice
• Willing to hear you speak
• Does not demand your license right away

There you have a professional.

Click to expand...

To bad the ones at Waco and Ruby Ridge weren't so cordial.

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GLENGLOCKER wrote:

To bad the ones at Waco and Ruby Ridge weren't so cordial.

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*Rolls eyes*

The nut jobs had ample opportunity to come out with their hands up.

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soloban wrote:

GLENGLOCKER wrote:

To bad the ones at Waco and Ruby Ridge weren't so cordial.

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*Rolls eyes*

The nut jobs had ample opportunity to come out with their hands up.

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Educate yourself. Waco: Rules of Engagement http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4298137966377572665

LoveMyCountry

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GLENGLOCKER wrote:

To bad the ones at Waco and Ruby Ridge weren't so cordial.

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I do believe they are approaching people that were armed and hostile.

Not sure ANYONE is going to be overlypolite in that situation.

I was was not there to witness the "start" of the contact so I have no idea if they called up and said "Good Morning" we are here with a warrant.

What I do know is that in both situations... the citizens refused and this in turn ended up in a tragic situation.

There are times when it is suicide to stand and fight.... and when you have that much of the Government against you... resistance mightget youkilled.

You have to decide what is more important.... Resist, make a point, and die..... or submit and live.

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how did this go from the OP notifying LE to Waco/Ruby Ridge:?

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Ever play that game in grade school?


You tell a secret to one kid and it goes down the line... at the end... it is so far from what was originally said...