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Thread: "Transporting" vs. "Concealed Carry"

  1. #1
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    Posted this at THR and TFL, but a member over there recommended I ask here too...would have posted here but didn't think about it then



    I'm sure most of us have heard of this in IL, this so called "6 seconds to safety", where you carry an unloaded gun in a case, bag, fanny pack, or purse, with a loaded magazine OUT of the gun.
    The idea is that if you feel the need to defend yourself you open the bag load the gun in 6 seconds if you're good.

    Here's the deal though with me...in VA you have to be 21+ to get a CHP, so that's not an option for me for another 2 years unfortunately.

    Now, open carry is perfectly legal here, even stated on the VA state police website. Though I feel that sometimes it's not appropriate, whether due to dress or location, so I'm just toying with other LEGAL ideas.

    The thing is is that I can't find VA's code/laws on transporting, not carrying a firearm.

    So would I be able to carry an unloaded gun (have several pistols already I've gotten as gifts ) / with a loaded magazine in the same bag? Like I said, I know this is no where near as good as having a loaded gun ready to go (like if concealed or open carried) but this is the best I can do at the time unless I choose to OC, and I figure having a "unloaded" gun with a loaded mag ready is better than having nothing.

    like I said before, since I can't carry concealed at this point, I figured just having a gun with me would be better than nothing, if nothing more than more peace of mind than anything else, which is why I was asking if anyone knew Virginia's laws defining what is "transportation" vs. "concealed carry".

    thanks in advance

    PS I posted this on THR but I worded it a little differently here because some people took my post the wrong way.



    EDIT: I do know that in order for it to be transported while concealed on one's person, you must have it "securely wrapped" (what I assume to be in a fully enclosed bag or case) and unloaded, while "at, to or from an established shooting range"


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    I can't imagine somebody creative hasn't already thought of this.

    My money would be not to try it.

    It may be, strictly speaking, legal (and I'm not saying it is); but I can imagine going to a lot of trouble to have my defense attorney explain it to a judge after I've been arrested because the police officer hadn't heard of it and decided it was just a creative ploy.

    For what its worth, here's VA's law on CC: http://tinyurl.com/5uwnq

    I don't recall any language distinguishing between carrying a loaded gun and carrying an unloaded gun; but, check it out. Maybe there is something in there.

    Backtrack from the linked page toits home page and type in various search phrases, such as "gun AND transport."

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Thanks...didn't plan on trying it but I thought I'd throw it out there to get some feedback

    Looks like I'll have to wait another two years and just get a CHPand stick to OC when I feel the need to carry protection in the mean time.

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    nova wrote:
    Posted this at THR and TFL, but a member over there recommended I ask here too...would have posted here but didn't think about it then

    I'm sure most of us have heard of this in IL, this so called "6 seconds to safety", where you carry an unloaded gun in a case, bag, fanny pack, or purse, with a loaded magazine OUT of the gun.
    The idea is that if you feel the need to defend yourself you open the bag load the gun in 6 seconds if you're good.
    Take a look at 18.2-308 and the court cases on concealed carry cited in the VA threads and you will see you cannot do what you propose - for starters, Virginia dioes not differentiate between loaded and unloaded handguns - and if your handgun is within reach, it's "on or about your person."

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    ETA: Mike beat me to it.
    I think unless you fall under one of the exceptions in 18.2-308 you could fall under "concealed about the person". At least I can't find anything to the contrary.
    Check out this site for more info on what a concealed weapon is.
    http://www.virginia1774.org/Page1.html#ConcealedWeapon
    http://www.virginia1774.org/Page2.html

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    that's what I figured as well. If it's that close to be considered concealed carry then forget it.



    But just wondering though, carrying an unloaded gun in a bag (like on the way to the range)is obviously transporting right?



    But I get it though, carrying even an unloaded gun "concealed" in a fanny pack type bag is still concealed carry. *This is what I was looking for*



    Thanks everyone (and feel free to keep discussing because you can never have enough info or opinions



    One more question: I've never OC'd before in public, so I'm just wondering what type of holster (and position) you all would recommend. As of right now I have a Kydex open-toppaddle holster thatfits my P89D and KP90,and a nylon belt loop holster that I have slightly modified (removed spare mag holder) that has a retention strap that I have over the hammer on the gun. This one fits my P95's and similar sized guns perfectly. Oh yeah I also have a nylon belt-clip holster with a thumb break strap that fits my larger guns like my P89 P90 and Hi-power.


    I'm still interested in getting a decent leather holster, right now I'm thinking of a Don Hume IWB (also open top) that I would tuck my shirt behind until I get my CHP in two years.

    Thanks

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    nova wrote:
    that's what I figured as well. If it's that close to be considered concealed carry then forget it.



    But just wondering though, carrying an unloaded gun in a bag (like on the way to the range)is obviously transporting right?



    But I get it though, carrying even an unloaded gun "concealed" in a fanny pack type bag is still concealed carry. *This is what I was looking for*



    Thanks everyone (and feel free to keep discussing because you can never have enough info or opinions



    One more question: I've never OC'd before in public, so I'm just wondering what type of holster (and position) you all would recommend. As of right now I have a Kydex open-toppaddle holster thatfits my P89D and KP90,and a nylon belt loop holster that I have slightly modified (removed spare mag holder) that has a retention strap that I have over the hammer on the gun. This one fits my P95's and similar sized guns perfectly. Oh yeah I also have a nylon belt-clip holster with a thumb break strap that fits my larger guns like my P89 P90 and Hi-power.


    I'm still interested in getting a decent leather holster, right now I'm thinking of a Don Hume IWB (also open top) that I would tuck my shirt behind until I get my CHP in two years.

    Thanks
    forgot to add: obviously it's pretty darn cold outside this time of year, and I'm likely to be wearing a wool coat or long zip-up sweatshirt when out and about, so having a OWB or IWB with a shirt tucked behind it strongside is out, because the coat or sweatshirt would cover it. So would it look too strange to carry it OWB (or even IWB if I got that holster) at the 12:30-1:00 position on my front so the jacket (when open, which is how I almost always wear it) wouldn't cover up?thanks

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    nova wrote:
    But just wondering though, carrying an unloaded gun in a bag (like on the way to the range)is obviously transporting right?
    What are you talking about - "transporting"? What does 18.2-308 say?

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    nova wrote:
    SNIP One more question: I've never OC'd before in public, so I'm just wondering what type of holster (and position) you all would recommend.
    Any holster with some retention properties in the eventof a gun-grab. The more retention the better, from this standpoint.

    The type of holster, tactical considerations aside, is less important than how you dress and groom.

    Personally, I'm OCing to promote 2A rights, so I want people to see it, thus Iusually avoid my IWB holster. I only use that for quick-on frombriefcase carry when I have to go back to the briefcase carry for the next stop, appointment, etc.

    A voice-recorder is very important. Do you have one yet?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    nova wrote:
    SNIP forgot to add: obviously it's pretty darn cold outside this time of year, and I'm likely to be wearing a wool coat or long zip-up sweatshirt when out and about, so having a OWB or IWB with a shirt tucked behind it strongside is out, because the coat or sweatshirt would cover it. So would it look too strange to carry it OWB (or even IWB if I got that holster) at the 12:30-1:00 position on my front so the jacket (when open, which is how I almost always wear it) wouldn't cover up?thanks
    This could be tricky. I've been thinking about having my main winter coat tailored, by which I mean having a slit sewn into it like police have in theirs. Then maybe some snaps to hold it closed if I want to conceal.

    I've also been considering going back to waist length coats with a stretch waist band like the old "Members Only" jackets. Those usually rode right at my belt, so it would work out great for OC. Darned if I could find one the last time I looked, though.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Mike wrote:
    nova wrote:
    But just wondering though, carrying an unloaded gun in a bag (like on the way to the range)is obviously transporting right?
    What are you talking about - "transporting"? What does 18.2-308 say?
    18.2-308:

    Exceptions:
    3. Any regularly enrolled member of a target shooting organization who is at, or going to or from, an established shooting range, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;



    Citizen wrote:
    nova wrote:
    SNIP One more question: I've never OC'd before in public, so I'm just wondering what type of holster (and position) you all would recommend.
    Any holster with some retention properties in the eventof a gun-grab. The more retention the better, from this standpoint.

    The type of holster, tactical considerations aside, is less important than how you dress and groom.

    Personally, I'm OCing to promote 2A rights, so I want people to see it, thus Iusually avoid my IWB holster. I only use that for quick-on frombriefcase carry when I have to go back to the briefcase carry for the next stop, appointment, etc.

    A voice-recorder is very important. Do you have one yet?


    That's what I thought as well, a retention strap would be better than open top.

    I have a small mp3 player that can voice-record, and it's smaller than a c-cell battery in size. But a dedicated actual voice recorder is something I'm going to consider.

    And yes, I try to dress better than just casual when I go out, usually a suede over-shirt or coat. Only a sweatshirt when I'm on-campus during the week running to my classes and around campus,I'm still 18 for alittle while yet (I live on campus but I'm home during weekends and breaks)



    Citizen wrote:
    nova wrote:
    SNIP forgot to add: obviously it's pretty darn cold outside this time of year, and I'm likely to be wearing a wool coat or long zip-up sweatshirt when out and about, so having a OWB or IWB with a shirt tucked behind it strongside is out, because the coat or sweatshirt would cover it. So would it look too strange to carry it OWB (or even IWB if I got that holster) at the 12:30-1:00 position on my front so the jacket (when open, which is how I almost always wear it) wouldn't cover up?thanks
    This could be tricky. I've been thinking about having my main winter coat tailored, by which I mean having a slit sewn into it like police have in theirs. Then maybe some snaps to hold it closed if I want to conceal.

    I've also been considering going back to waist length coats with a stretch waist band like the old "Members Only" jackets. Those usually rode right at my belt, so it would work out great for OC. Darned if I could find one the last time I looked, though.
    The suede long-sleeve "shirt" I mentioned above has those slits on the sides, which helps keep it from covering up the gun.

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    It's a little unconventional, but in your case a thigh holster might be worth considering. My $0.02.

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    Citizen wrote:
    nova wrote:
    SNIP forgot to add: obviously it's pretty darn cold outside this time of year, and I'm likely to be wearing a wool coat or long zip-up sweatshirt when out and about, so having a OWB or IWB with a shirt tucked behind it strongside is out, because the coat or sweatshirt would cover it. So would it look too strange to carry it OWB (or even IWB if I got that holster) at the 12:30-1:00 position on my front so the jacket (when open, which is how I almost always wear it) wouldn't cover up?thanks
    This could be tricky. I've been thinking about having my main winter coat tailored, by which I mean having a slit sewn into it like police have in theirs. Then maybe some snaps to hold it closed if I want to conceal.

    I've also been considering going back to waist length coats with a stretch waist band like the old "Members Only" jackets. Those usually rode right at my belt, so it would work out great for OC. Darned if I could find one the last time I looked, though.
    You can barrow my duty coat....

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    nova wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    nova wrote:
    But just wondering though, carrying an unloaded gun in a bag (like on the way to the range)is obviously transporting right?
    What are you talking about - "transporting"? What does 18.2-308 say?
    18.2-308:

    Exceptions:
    3. Any regularly enrolled member of a target shooting organization who is at, or going to or from, an established shooting range, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
    So how is an"unloaded gun in a bag" "securely wrapped?" Securely wrapped to me means butcher shop style paper wrapped around the gun and tied or taped so that it is absolutely inaccessible.

    And are you a "regularly enrolled member of a target shooting organization"?

    This exception is not worth the summons it is likley to get you.

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    Mike wrote:
    nova wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    nova wrote:
    But just wondering though, carrying an unloaded gun in a bag (like on the way to the range)is obviously transporting right?
    What are you talking about - "transporting"? What does 18.2-308 say?
    18.2-308:

    Exceptions:
    3. Any regularly enrolled member of a target shooting organization who is at, or going to or from, an established shooting range, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
    So how is an"unloaded gun in a bag" "securely wrapped?" Securely wrapped to me means butcher shop style paper wrapped around the gun and tied or taped so that it is absolutely inaccessible.

    And are you a "regularly enrolled member of a target shooting organization"?

    This exception is not worth the summons it is likley to get you.
    Yes I agree. And yes I am a regularly enrolled member of a target shooting range (though now that I think of it that's not what it said...it said organization...)

    Simply put, it's a bad idea at least in VA, and I'm not going to try it. I'll stick to OC when I feel like carrying until I get my permit at 21.

    Thanks [/quote]


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    Quote - "Yes I agree. And yes I am a regularly enrolled member of a target shooting range (though now that I think of it that's not what it said...it said organization...)"

    A member of the NRA or hunt club or any other club or "organization" would be considered "any regularly enrolled member of a target shooting organization". If you are an enrolled member of a range that takes membership you are a member of an orginization.

    Quote - "So how is an"unloaded gun in a bag" "securely wrapped?" Securely wrapped to me means butcher shop style paper wrapped around the gun and tied or taped so that it is absolutely inaccessible."

    The wording is from when the law was written before zippered gun bags existed. Although the law has not been rewritten to include them it is accepted that if it is a zippered bag that is designed to carry a gun and not desguise the fact a gun is present you are okay as it would not be considered concealed. Triangular shaped zippered gun bag is okay. Fanny pack not okay. I believe the VCDL web site had a story a few years ago about a father walking with their son. The Father had an unloaded pistol in a triangular shaped zippered pistol bag. A cop saw him and stopped him and arrested him for carrying concealed without a permit. When the case went to court the judge threw it out since the gun was "securely wrapped" in accordance with the law and the cop only stopped the man because the cop new the zippered bag was designed to hold a gun and therefore the gun could not have been concealed.

    Actually carrying a gun wrapped in brown wrapping paper or white butcher paper and tied is still leagal under the law today. If you really wanted to carry concealed without a permit this could be a good way to go since most people that see the package would not give it a second thought. Who would think you had a gun wrapped in paper. Drop the wrapped gun in a back pack and voila, you are 100 percent legal. If you need the gun, open the back pack, tear the pacer off and slap the magazine in and you are ready to rock and roll. If a cop were to search, the gun is "securely wrapped" in accordance to the axact wording of the law. I see nothing that says you have to carry the package in plain sight.
    Revelation 1911 - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

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    "securely wrapped" is how a few of my new guns came packaged NIB, the guns were wrapped in a plastic wrap with factory oil on the gun inside, and then put into the plastic hard case.

    But today we carry guns in cases and range bags which isn't concealed carry...

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    nova wrote:
    But today we carry guns in cases and range bags which isn't concealed carry...
    Wrong answer. If the case or bag is within reached in a vehicle, it is concealed; even a handgun locked in a console has been held to be unlawfully concealed. Leith v. Com., 440 S.E.2d 152 (Va. App.1994) (Pistol that was in locked console between driver's seat and front passenger seat of vehicle that defendant was driving was "about his person," for purposes of offense of carrying concealed weapon).

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    mobeewan wrote:
    Quote - "Yes I agree. And yes I am a regularly enrolled member of a target shooting range (though now that I think of it that's not what it said...it said organization...)"

    A member of the NRA or hunt club or any other club or "organization" would be considered "any regularly enrolled member of a target shooting organization". If you are an enrolled member of a range that takes membership you are a member of an orginization.

    Quote - "So how is an"unloaded gun in a bag" "securely wrapped?" Securely wrapped to me means butcher shop style paper wrapped around the gun and tied or taped so that it is absolutely inaccessible."

    The wording is from when the law was written before zippered gun bags existed. Although the law has not been rewritten to include them it is accepted that if it is a zippered bag that is designed to carry a gun and not desguise the fact a gun is present you are okay as it would not be considered concealed. Triangular shaped zippered gun bag is okay. Fanny pack not okay. I believe the VCDL web site had a story a few years ago about a father walking with their son. The Father had an unloaded pistol in a triangular shaped zippered pistol bag. A cop saw him and stopped him and arrested him for carrying concealed without a permit. When the case went to court the judge threw it out since the gun was "securely wrapped" in accordance with the law and the cop only stopped the man because the cop new the zippered bag was designed to hold a gun and therefore the gun could not have been concealed.

    Actually carrying a gun wrapped in brown wrapping paper or white butcher paper and tied is still leagal under the law today. If you really wanted to carry concealed without a permit this could be a good way to go since most people that see the package would not give it a second thought. Who would think you had a gun wrapped in paper. Drop the wrapped gun in a back pack and voila, you are 100 percent legal. If you need the gun, open the back pack, tear the pacer off and slap the magazine in and you are ready to rock and roll. If a cop were to search, the gun is "securely wrapped" in accordance to the axact wording of the law. I see nothing that says you have to carry the package in plain sight.
    You are missing the other element of the defense - being parrt of an organized shooting club and en route to/from the range.

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    Mike wrote:
    nova wrote:
    But today we carry guns in cases and range bags which isn't concealed carry...
    Wrong answer. If the case or bag is within reached in a vehicle, it is concealed; even a handgun locked in a console has been held to be unlawfully concealed. Leith v. Com., 440 S.E.2d 152 (Va. App.1994) (Pistol that was in locked console between driver's seat and front passenger seat of vehicle that defendant was driving was "about his person," for purposes of offense of carrying concealed weapon).
    not directing this at you in anger or anything, just a statement, but how the hell am I supposed to bring my guns to the range when I'm in my pickup? I sure as hell am not going to leave them in the bed of the truck even with my locking tonneau cover!

    Mike I really appreciate your help

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    nova wrote:
    SNIP but how the hell am I supposed to bring my guns to the range when I'm in my pickup? I sure as hell am not going to leave them in the bed of the truck even with my locking tonneau cover!
    Just follow what 18.2-308(B)(3) says:

    Any regularly enrolled member of a target shooting organization who is at, or going to or from, an established shooting range, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;


    Being in your range bag does not count as "unloaded and securely wrapped."

    Just unload it. Put it in the gun case it came in, or wrap it protectively and lock it in a tool boxor some other secure-able container.

    The reference to a locked console was a case where I'll just bet thegun was loaded and ready for use, locked in the console,and the defendant was trying to wiggle outof it by saying that since it wasn't in his pockets it wasn't on or about his person.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    you mean I've been breaking the law every time I put my gun in a zippered case and then into my range bag and throw it on the back seat of my pickup? Or my mother's SUV?



    who came up with these laws!!!????

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    nova wrote:
    SNIP who came up with these laws!!!????
    People who don't drive pick up trucks.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    nova wrote:
    not directing this at you in anger or anything, just a statement, but how the hell am I supposed to bring my guns to the range when I'm in my pickup? I sure as hell am not going to leave them in the bed of the truck even with my locking tonneau cover!
    How about - OpenCarry ?

    Honestly, this concealed stuff can really get you in trouble - did you know that the 2d offense of unlawful concealed carry is a felony??

    --

    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

    A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.



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    Citizen wrote:
    nova wrote:
    SNIP who came up with these laws!!!????
    People who don't drive pick up trucks.
    obviously

    Mike wrote:
    nova wrote:
    not directing this at you in anger or anything, just a statement, but how the hell am I supposed to bring my guns to the range when I'm in my pickup? I sure as hell am not going to leave them in the bed of the truck even with my locking tonneau cover!
    How about - OpenCarry ?

    Honestly, this concealed stuff can really get you in trouble - did you know that the 2d offense of unlawful concealed carry is a felony??

    --

    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

    A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

    yep it's a felony

    I can't believe this! :X


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