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Thread: Open Carry In a Mall

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    Would somebody openly carrying in the Westroads mall have made any difference, would it have made that person a bigger target, or would the shooter have ignored him and kep on killing others?

    What are your thoughts about open carrying in that kind of a situation.



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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    The shooter would have never noticed an other person Ocing. This guy only had one thing on his mind. Walk in, go to a position that he already knew was a good spot and open fire. All that was on his mind was working his plan. He was oblivious to everything around him.

    Plan your work and work your plan.

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    Well, we'll never really know for sure since the maggot is dead.. thank God. But I tend to think the responder before me is probably correct.

    As for would it have been possible for an OC'er, or CC'er for that matter, to have made a difference? Perhaps, had he been close enough when the SHTF. I am comfortable taking a 25 yard shot with a number of my handguns, but I would rather take such a shot much closer where I can deliver followup shots with greater effectiveness. Would I want to be closer to some deranged individual with a semi-automatic rifle bent on killing a bunch of people? Heck no.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Mjolnir wrote:
    SNIP Would somebody openly carrying in the Westroads mall have made any difference,
    Not just one OC'er unlessthekillerhappened to stumble on the OC'er and change his mind.

    But if even one person in ten CC'd, the number of deceased might be lower. Especially if one of the intended victims was CCing.


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    Mjolnir wrote:
    Would somebody openly carrying in the Westroads mall have made any difference, would it have made that person a bigger target, or would the shooter have ignored him and kep on killing others?

    What are your thoughts about open carrying in that kind of a situation.

    The real question is, what difference does it make? What does that have to do with OC?

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    expvideo wrote:
    Mjolnir wrote:
    Would somebody openly carrying in the Westroads mall have made any difference, would it have made that person a bigger target, or would the shooter have ignored him and kep on killing others?

    What are your thoughts about open carrying in that kind of a situation.

    The real question is, what difference does it make? What does that have to do with OC?
    You tell me, you obviously know so much more about this than I do, please enlighten me with your wealth of knowledge.

    Would the shooter have picked a different target if he knew the mall was not a gun free zone?

    Would people OCing in the mall have discouraged him from that specfic target?

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    i believe these wackjobs/spree killers select their target/places carefully avoiding places they are likely to encounter an armed person.

    yes, I believe an armed citizen could have made a difference if they had the opportunity and the courageto challenge (take him out or attempt to) the shooter


    as for a OC'er being targeted by the shooter, he probably wouldn't notice unless the shooter noticed the OC'er just prior to the kiling spree began

    a OC'er might have prevented the incident if the shooter got scared after seeing someone open carry or after he received incoming




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    Mjolnir wrote:
    expvideo wrote:
    Mjolnir wrote:
    Would somebody openly carrying in the Westroads mall have made any difference, would it have made that person a bigger target, or would the shooter have ignored him and kep on killing others?

    What are your thoughts about open carrying in that kind of a situation.

    The real question is, what difference does it make? What does that have to do with OC?
    You tell me, you obviously know so much more about this than I do, please enlighten me with your wealth of knowledge.

    Would the shooter have picked a different target if he knew the mall was not a gun free zone?

    Would people OCing in the mall have discouraged him from that specfic target?
    Not only can none of us answer this correctly, since the only person who knows the answer is dead, but the question is irrelevant. What does this have to do with OC? What if there had been a cop? What if someone was wearing a kilt? Would the shooter have appreciated Scottish culture so much that he wouldn't want to ruin that guy's day? What if his parents were there? What if the staircase was made of wood instead of rock? What if they weren't out of flintstones bandaids at the store? What if? What if? What if?

    I just don't understand what you expect to get out of these questions that you've asked. None of us can answer them. Only the shooter could answer them, but he's dead, so... Besides, I don't know about you, but I don't OC to prevent mall shootings. I do it because I like to and it's my right to, not to be an auxiliary police officer.

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    expvideo wrote:
    Mjolnir wrote:
    expvideo wrote:
    Mjolnir wrote:
    Would somebody openly carrying in the Westroads mall have made any difference, would it have made that person a bigger target, or would the shooter have ignored him and kep on killing others?

    What are your thoughts about open carrying in that kind of a situation.

    The real question is, what difference does it make? What does that have to do with OC?
    You tell me, you obviously know so much more about this than I do, please enlighten me with your wealth of knowledge.

    Would the shooter have picked a different target if he knew the mall was not a gun free zone?

    Would people OCing in the mall have discouraged him from that specfic target?
    Not only can none of us answer this correctly, since the only person who knows the answer is dead, but the question is irrelevant. What does this have to do with OC? What if there had been a cop? What if someone was wearing a kilt? Would the shooter have appreciated Scottish culture so much that he wouldn't want to ruin that guy's day? What if his parents were there? What if the staircase was made of wood instead of rock? What if they weren't out of flintstones bandaids at the store? What if? What if? What if?

    I just don't understand what you expect to get out of these questions that you've asked. None of us can answer them. Only the shooter could answer them, but he's dead, so... Besides, I don't know about you, but I don't OC to prevent mall shootings. I do it because I like to and it's my right to, not to be an auxiliary police officer.
    Glad you know so much and that what I've asked is irrelevant.

    Guess it's not logical to learn from shootings and what could prevent em in the future.

    But then again, it's all about you and what makes you feel good and what you want to do ain't it.


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    Agent19 wrote:
    i believe these wackjobs/spree killers select their target/places carefully avoiding places they are likely to encounter an armed person.

    yes, I believe an armed citizen could have made a difference if they had the opportunity and the courageto challenge (take him out or attempt to) the shooter


    as for a OC'er being targeted by the shooter, he probably wouldn't notice unless the shooter noticed the OC'er just prior to the kiling spree began

    a OC'er might have prevented the incident if the shooter got scared after seeing someone open carry or after he received incoming
    I agree with you all but the last point. He felt he was already dead and the only thing that would have stopped him sooner is a bullet. He would nave not stopped shooting if he was shot at, but might have turned and engaged the person shooting at him thus keeping him froom shooting other bystanders in the mall.



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    Mjolnir wrote:
    expvideo wrote:

    Not only can none of us answer this correctly, since the only person who knows the answer is dead, but the question is irrelevant. What does this have to do with OC? What if there had been a cop? What if someone was wearing a kilt? Would the shooter have appreciated Scottish culture so much that he wouldn't want to ruin that guy's day? What if his parents were there? What if the staircase was made of wood instead of rock? What if they weren't out of flintstones bandaids at the store? What if? What if? What if?

    I just don't understand what you expect to get out of these questions that you've asked. None of us can answer them. Only the shooter could answer them, but he's dead, so... Besides, I don't know about you, but I don't OC to prevent mall shootings. I do it because I like to and it's my right to, not to be an auxiliary police officer.
    Glad you know so much and that what I've asked is irrelevant.

    Guess it's not logical to learn from shootings and what could prevent em in the future.

    But then again, it's all about you and what makes you feel good and what you want to do ain't it.
    So you think we should discuss the tactical advantages of the kilt then? I mean, in an effor to prevent future shootings.

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    people always post "what if" and we can what if all day


    what if, your cat had babies in the oven, would they be kittens or muffins

    I look at it as when not what if
    Practice and prepare for the worst, pray for a the rest

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    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Agent19 wrote:
    I believe an armed citizen could have made a difference if they had the opportunity and the courageto challenge (take him out or attempt to) the shooter
    Armed Murderous madman stopped by a Citizen with a HANDGUN

    :what:.

    see other post regading this topic.

    just wanted to post it here for the nay sayers

    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    I'm not opposed to OC, but I always CC. I think the real question is would an armed person willing to use their weapon have prevented or lessend the number of people killed?

    I think it would have, however, I would prefer not to take the chance OCing and having the person see my gun as I would immediately be the priority target as I would be a threat to the shooter. As I said before, I am not opposed to OCing, but I'm not going to risk my life to make a statement about OCing. I live in Vermont and can carry concealed w/out a permit so I take advantage of that. In a tatical situation, that's what it is all about, using everything to your advantage (i.e. the shooter not knowing you have a gun or where it is).



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    unfortunately i think many of the posts here are missing the point.

    oc'ing might [ but probably not ] have stopped the shooting AT THIS MALL. he would have just hopped into his car and gone to the next available high occupancy target and started shooting there.

    thereis only a temporary deterence in this case. the guy planned to shoot until he was dead. the only real solutionfor malls is to have armed security [ and have them TRAINED in the use of firearms ]. most current "security" forceshave phones, flashlights, maybe mace. What are the security people going to do - call theleos?Heck - we all have phones.

    oc'ing - assuming the bg actually notices the oc'er - might deter the "rational" bg - the bank robber or the 7-11 robber; not the nut case who already determined his final exit strategy.

    so for me - legal or not - i would probably cc (deep cover) in any mall i would happen to be in since we are all pretty much on our own.



    papasmee

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    OC or CC, an armed civvy in the mall close enough to the loony would have been able to enguage him and take him down. ergo, less lives lost.


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    Carryin OC or CC would probably not have made a difference. I agree with papasmee. This guy wasn't planning on shooting up a mall and then rushing home to be in time for dinner. His exit strategy was in a body bag.

    If a person was oc'ing I doubt he would have noticed when he started firing. He was looking for targets not guns on belts.

    If someone was oc'ing or cc'ing, and they were off to the side out of his line of fire, then maybe they could have made a difference. It depends on how fast the person could register and react to what was happening.

    OC definitely would enable them to draw their weapon and start shooting back faster.

    I saw a guy demonstrating a belt that goes inside your pants to conceal your firearm. In the time it took him to reach down his pants and draw his weapon to a firing position I could have drawn and puthalf a magin him.

    So having your weapon easily accessible in OC mode would give you an advantage when in a situation where your already being fired upon.
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    I know what you mean about getting to your sidearm quick.
    I can get my Glock on target via my Blackhawk CQC serpa in about 1/2 a sec.
    Now that I have Hogue's wrapped around, a sweater for concealment gets all snagged up.

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    Beau wrote:

    If a person was oc'ing I doubt he would have noticed when he started firing. He was looking for targets not guns on belts.
    Don't you think a sidearm out in the open makes you a target??

    Personally any time I strap on a sidearm and it's openly carried I think it makes me a bigger target than a concealed weapon.


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    it depends on where you are. if you are in an iffy area, then maybe it would make you a target, in the burbs, much less.

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    Personally any time I strap on a sidearm and it's openly carried I think it makes me a bigger target than a concealed weapon.
    Let me guess... you're not in a wheelchair or are a seventy seven year old man with a cane, are you? What makes you think that all of the physically fit, alert, strong men wouldn't be taken down first anyway, simply because, armed or not, they're still the most able of all victims to resist?

    And, I'm not making this personal, Mjolnir, so please don't misunderstand. You just raised these questions for me, is all.

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    Mjolnir wrote:
    Beau wrote:

    If a person was oc'ing I doubt he would have noticed when he started firing. He was looking for targets not guns on belts.
    Don't you think a sidearm out in the open makes you a target??

    Personally any time I strap on a sidearm and it's openly carried I think it makes me a bigger target than a concealed weapon.
    I absolutely do not think OC'ing makes you a bigger target.

    Think about it. How many robbers or muggers, rapists etc.. do youthink plan on committing murder when they commit a crime? I think at least 90% of criminals want to get in, get whatever they came for and get out. Not start a shootout. So if they were to see someone openly carrying it's most likely that they will turn around and head the other way. Find an easier target.

    Now I'm not saying that being made a target simply by OC'ing is not possible. Just not likely.

    As for the situation of being in the presence of a mass shooting I think it highly unlikely to be targeted for OC'ing. A person who opens fire in public may be checking for threats but I doubt they would notice the average person with a gun on their hip. Most people don't notice under normal circumstances. If anything they are looking for uniforms and badges. Something easily detectable.
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    I think any disadvantage of OC, over time and across possible scenarios, balances out with the deterent factor in other possible scenarios. As I have stated before, I think that there are times that CC is more appropriate/advantageous than OC and vise versa, and times the choice is neutral.

    I do not think that in a mass shooting situation that it is likely that OC v CC is going to make a difference generally speaking, although specifics of a certain situation may dictate a preference. I do think that there is a likelihood that an armed citizen in many of the mass shooting situations of the last decade would have mitigated casualties.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    i think that is correct. any gunman is going to be focused too much on the following events to notice someone OCing nearby. in a mall there is a lot of cover to obscure a firearm openly carried. plus a CC firearm is OC shortly thereafter.
    whether concealed or open, a member of the public carrying a firearm should be able to make a difference.

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