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Thread: "Unauthorized Armed Parading"

  1. #1
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    Could a police officer legally cite you for open carrying under paramilitary statutes that specifically criminalize unauthorized armed parading?

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    steveforopen wrote:
    Could a police officer legally cite you for open carrying under paramilitary statutes that specifically criminalize unauthorized armed parading?
    How about you provide a "cite" for this alleged offense.

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    steveforopen wrote:
    Could a police officer legally cite you for open carrying under paramilitary statutes that specifically criminalize unauthorized armed parading?

    Sure. Some cops have no problem being creative in the way they apply the law. It wouldn't be determined to be un-legal until it got to court.

    Hasn't happened to my knowledge, though.

    Of course, I'd be a little flattered, if it happened to me. "I'm so dangerous they consider me a paramilitary platoon all by myself. Just me and my little handgun."

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Here are some sloppy citations if you are "really" interested. I understand that alot of these states cited already forbid open carry however, I only wanted to promote discussion to see if the simple open carriage of a pistol constitutes a violation of the law.

    I know this isn't a Virgina-specific topic of interest, just get alot of good discussion in this part of the forums.

    All cites taken from
    http://www.adl.org/mwd/faq5.asp#5.10--

    Texas law Article 5780(6)
    New Hampshire Statutes
    "111:15 Armed Civilian Groups. No organization, society, club, post, order, league or other combination of persons, or civil group, or any member thereof , are authorized to assume any semblance of military organization or character by bearing or possessing rifles, pistols, sabres, clubs, or military weapons of any kind, or wearing a military uniform of any kind. Any person violating any of the provisions of this section or taking part in such military organization shall be guilty of a misdemeanor if a natural person, or guilty of a felony, if any other person, and any rifles, pistols, sabres, clubs or other military weapons used in violation hereof shall be forfeited. This section shall not apply to regularly constituted military units under state or federal laws, and nothing in this section shall be construed as forbidding the possession and use of rifles for color guards or firing squad purposes, [also excludes wearing of uniforms by some veteran groups and ritualistic use of sabres or rifles by fraternal groups]"

    Presser v. Illinois, 116 U.S. 615. -- found the criminalization of unauthorized paramilitary activity constitutional
    here's a list of states forbidding paramilitary training and armed parading by statute

    Code:
    -Arkansas.  ARK. CODE s 5-71-301 to -303.
    -California.  CAL. PENAL CODE s 11460.
    -Colorado.  COLO. REV. STAT. s 18-9-120.
    -Connecticut.  CONN. GEN. STAT. s 53-206b.
    -Louisiana.  LA. REV. STAT. ANN. s 117.1.
    -Michigan.  MICH. COMP. LAWS s 750.528a.
    -Missouri.  MO. REV. STAT. s 574.070.
    -Montana.  MONT. CODE ANN. s 45-8-109.
    -Nebraska.  NEB. REV. STAT. s 28-1480 to -1482.
    -New Jersey.  N.J. REV. STAT. s 2C:39-14.
    -New Mexico.  N.M. STAT. ANN. s 30-20A-1 to -4.
    -Oklahoma.  OKLA. STAT. ANN. tit. 21, s 1321.10.
    -Oregon.  OR. REV. STAT. s 166.660.
    -Pennsylvania.  18 PA.  CONS. STAT. s 5515.
    -South Carolina.  S.C. CODE ANN. s 16-8-10 to -30.
    -Tennessee. TENN. CODE ANN. s 39-17-314.
    -Virginia.  VA. CODE ANN. s 18.2-433.1 to -433.3.



  5. #5
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    So the question is... could an OCDO member who reps OCDO be considered in a "military" organization and thus be forbidden from bearing a pistol?

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    Citizen wrote:
    steveforopen wrote:
    Could a police officer legally cite you for open carrying under paramilitary statutes that specifically criminalize unauthorized armed parading?

    Sure. Some cops have no problem being creative in the way they apply the law. It wouldn't be determined to be un-legal until it got to court.

    Hasn't happened to my knowledge, though.

    Of course, I'd be a little flattered, if it happened to me. "I'm so dangerous they consider me a paramilitary platoon all by myself. Just me and my little handgun."
    Well, 'technically' your part of the unorganized Virginia militia.



    § 44-1. Composition of militia.

    The militia of the Commonwealth of Virginia shall consist of all able-bodied citizens of this Commonwealth and all other able-bodied persons resident in this Commonwealth who have declared their intention to become citizens of the United States, who are at least sixteen years of age and, except as hereinafter provided, not more than fifty-five years of age. The militia shall be divided into four classes, the National Guard, which includes the Army National Guard and the Air National Guard, the Virginia State Defense Force, the naval militia, and the unorganized militia.

    Don't even need to be a US Citizen, Citizen! :celebrate

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    Xeni wrote:
    SNIP not more than fifty-five years of age.
    Don't even need to be a US Citizen, Citizen! :celebrate
    Well, thank you for acknowledging that I'm yet below the age of 55.

    That's better than I get from the self-proclaimed comics, Longwatch and Tomahawk!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    The answer to your quesiton is clearly no


    § 18.2-433.2. Paramilitary activity prohibited.

    A person shall be guilty of unlawful paramilitary activity, punishable as a Class 5 felony if he:

    1. Teaches or demonstrates to any other person the use, application, or making of any firearm, explosive or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, knowing or having reason to know or intending that such training will be employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder; or

    2. Assembles with one or more persons for the purpose of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any firearm, explosive or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, intending to employ such training for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder
    So you have to INTEND that there will becivil disorder furthered from your activities. That's what the government would have to prove. Further, the statute doesn't mention carrying, only teaching and assembling for the purposes of training.

    But wait there's more...
    § 18.2-433.3. Exceptions.

    Nothing contained in this article shall be construed to apply to:

    1. Any act of a law-enforcement officer performed in the otherwise lawful performance of the officer's official duties;

    2. Any activity, undertaken without knowledge of or intent to cause or further a civil disorder, which is intended to teach or practice self-defense or self-defense techniques such as karate clubs or self-defense clinics, and similar lawful activity;

    3. Any facility, program or lawful activity related to firearms instruction and training intended to teach the safe handling and use of firearms; or

    4. Any other lawful sports or activities related to the individual recreational use or possession of firearms, including but not limited to hunting activities, target shooting, self-defense and firearms collection.

    Notwithstanding any language contained herein, no activity of any individual, group, organization or other entity engaged in the lawful display or use of firearms or other weapons or facsimiles thereof shall be deemed to be in violation of this statute.
    So there ya have it. The cop could try it (and I'm sure someone will one day), but it'd be an open and shut case.

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    steveforopen wrote:
    So the question is... could an OCDO member who reps OCDO be considered in a "military" organization and thus be forbidden from bearing a pistol?
    Anything is possible.

    I came across the paramilitary code just a little while ago researching something else.

    Have you looked it up and read it closely? Its been a while since I read it.

    I can't imagine it would get any traction because we don't associate for the purpose of paramilitary-ing. If anything, we're usually associating for variations of eating.

    Its an interesting question, though, in one sense. I understand the IDPA doesn't engage in training, only engages in competition, to avoid paramilitary/private army violations. I can't remember the source on that, though.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  10. #10
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    Ahhh... so these are the anti-tacticool laws!
    -Unrequited

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    I guess they have a problem with reenacters in New Hampshire.

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    thnycav wrote:
    I guess they have a problem with reenacters in New Hampshire.
    I didn't even think about that... have any conflicts or wars ever been fought on NH land though?
    -Unrequited

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    I just scanned SC Statute 16-8-10 to 16-10-30 and see no mention of 'Armed Parading' or anything that could be expanded to such.

    steveforopen wrote:

    -South Carolina. S.C. CODE ANN. s 16-8-10 to -30.

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    Suggest renaming this post to "Unauthorized Ass-Clown Parading" :P

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    Wars or battles on local lands do not stop some reenacters. There are reenacters from many wars in this country. At Ft Story VA they did a reenactment of D-day landing. I do horse cavalry reenacting from mounted knight to WW2.

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