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Thread: Carrying At Places With "No Carry" Signs

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    I am searching for something official that addresses the carrying of a firearm at a place with posted "no carry" sign like a mall. I have seen itwritten (not sure if fact or an opinion) that if you are caught carrying (concealed) at a place prohibiting the carrying of weapons, the worst that will happen is that you will be told/asked to leave. And if you didn't, you could then be charged with trespassing.

    Is there something in Virginia's code that addresses this. With the holidays here and in light the recent mall shooting, I am a bit reluctant to go the mall without having some sort of protection. However, my local mall (Spotsylvania Towne Center) has "no weapons" signs at mall entrances, but not at the anchor store entrances. I don't want to be discovered and be arrested, or charged with something and lose my permits.

    Can anyone point me to something official that I can make a copy of and carry with me? Thanks.

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    I asked a security guard todayfor rules on firearms like the sign on the door says to at my local mall (Westfield Mall). He asked me if I had a gun. I said no because I leftmy gunin the car because I thought you could not carry in the mall.ThenIwas told thatIwould be arrested if caught with a gun even ifI have a permit byHobart Police. Then he ended the convo with just leave it in the car. I wish I could take my business some where else but sometimes its hard to because the mall has everything I need to shop for my family.

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    18.2-308(O) says:

    O. The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property.

    http://tinyurl.com/5uwnq
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    HMDGLOCK wrote:
    I asked a security guard todayfor rules on firearms like the sign on the door says to at my local mall (Westfield Mall).
    I wouldn't trust a stranger on the street for information on the law...let alone a security guard...let alone a cop. Read the law yourself, LEOs and renta cops generally have no clue.

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    HMDGLOCK's post presumably refers to an incident in IN, since that is his declared location.

    For Virginia, the only thing official is the trespassing laws, which you addressed in your original post. There is no mention of signage in reference to the carry of firearms or other weapons that I can find. Therefore, it is generally understood that "no guns" signs (or similar) carry no legal weight in reference to firearm statutes, but do serve as an alternate "no trespassing" sign.

    In your situation, I would agree with your statement that if you enter through an anchor store entrance that is not posted and you claim ignorance of the policy, then it would seem that you would have to be asked to leave and refuse to comply to be in violation of anything - even then it would be trespassing, which shouldn't cost you your CHP or gun rights. Some will say that the same applies even if you enter through a posted entrance, but I won't go there.

    As always, the IANAL disclaimer applies here.

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    ama-gi wrote:
    HMDGLOCK wrote:
    I asked a security guard todayfor rules on firearms like the sign on the door says to at my local mall (Westfield Mall).
    I wouldn't trust a stranger on the street for information on the law...let alone a security guard...let alone a cop. Read the law yourself, LEOs and renta cops generally have no clue.
    +1 Plus, most of the time you are going to get a "No" regardless of policy. Don't ask, don't tell works for more situations than just the military!

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    I would rather face the police, than a coroner............

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    ama-gi wrote:
    HMDGLOCK wrote:
    I asked a security guard todayfor rules on firearms like the sign on the door says to at my local mall (Westfield Mall).
    I wouldn't trust a stranger on the street for information on the law...let alone a security guard...let alone a cop. Read the law yourself, LEOs and renta cops generally have no clue.
    This is true... even ifcops and guardssee things happen first hand.. they do not know that the hellthey are talking about...

    You should trust your instincts or your parents. You cannot really trust anyone else that is not family.

    In case you missed it... I was joking!


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    CaptainCharles wrote:
    I would rather face the police, than a coroner............
    The police can only put you in a 8 x 6 x 6... The coroner would put you in a 6 x 3 x 2 and then his friends will put you 6 feet under.

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    The police can only put you in a 8 x 6 x 6... The coroner would put you in a 6 x 3 x 2 and then his friends will put you 6 feet under.
    Or you can refuse to give YOUR MONEY to people that post their property....and no one can put you anywhere,
    There isn't anything in the Mall that you can't buy on the net!

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    Never Ask permission, ALWAYS carry. don't ask Don't Tell... Especially in Gun free Zones...thats where you need it the most.

    EDIT: I do mean CC not OC in these instances


    And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

    Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William S. Smith in 1787. Taken from Jefferson, On Democracy 20, S. Padover ed., 1939

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    WHERE UNLAWFUL TO CARRY:
    §18.2-308 (O.): Private property when prohibited by the owner of the property, or where posted as prohibited. (emphasis mine)

    TRESPASSING:

    Virginia Code § 18.2-119 defines the crime of trespassing as follows:

    If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by such persons or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen, or if any person, whether he is the owner, tenant or otherwise entitled to the use of such land, building or premises, goes upon, or remains upon such land, building or premises after having been prohibited from doing so by a court of competent jurisdiction by an order issued pursuant to §§ 16.1-253, 16.1-253.1, 16.1-253.4, 16.1-278.2 through 16.1-278.6, 16.1-278.8, 16.1-278.14, 16.1-278.15, 16.1-279.1, 19.2-152.8, 19.2-152.9 or § 19.2-152.10 or an ex parte order issued pursuant to § 20-103, and after having been served with such order, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. This section shall not be construed to affect in any way the provisions of §§ 18.2-132 through 18.2-136. (again, emphasis mine)

    There is more to be seen in the trespassing sections of the code.

    There is also the "concealed means concealed" school of thought. Really, as in all laws, it's up to you to determine whether the consequences of being caught breaking a law are worth it to you.

    If it came down to it in court, you've demonstrated by posting here you were aware of the restrictions, therefore you've been notified.

    There are worse fates than a trespassing charge, IMHO. YMMV.

    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Freeflight wrote:
    Never Ask permission, ALWAYS carry. don't ask Don't Tell... Especially in Gun free Zones...thats where you need it the most.
    I agree with that. But let's take it one more step. Private property rights! I think a reconsideration needs be. A public mall where "anyone" can enter without security is much different than say my home where I invite people I know to a party. I can restrict what people bring into my home but I also know everyone there. A mall, even though it is private property is not "private", like my home. I actively regulate who comes into my house, they do not! (Did you notice the photos from the shopping mall shooting story, they "beefed up" security. Added more guards, all of whom are unarmed!!! HA!)

    Because they do not actively regulate those who enter (security check points) they give up their rights to regulate my behaviour because they are not and cannot protect me. With all these shootings a reality, whose rights trump the others? My right to life or their right to control their property? Since I was not invited specifically and the mall is open to everyone, effectively including those who have guns with ill intent, then I say my right to life supercedes their rights of private property. Rights cannot contradict one another. One of the two has to give up their rights. Are they really saying I'm giving up my right to life when I enter their mall?????

    Sounds like a SCOTUS case to me .

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    Tess wrote:
    WHERE UNLAWFUL TO CARRY:
    §18.2-308 (O.): Private property when prohibited by the owner of the property, or where posted as prohibited. (emphasis mine)

    TRESPASSING:

    Virginia Code § 18.2-119 defines the crime of trespassing as follows:

    If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by such persons or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen, or if any person, whether he is the owner, tenant or otherwise entitled to the use of such land, building or premises, goes upon, or remains upon such land, building or premises after having been prohibited from doing so by a court of competent jurisdiction by an order issued pursuant to §§ 16.1-253, 16.1-253.1, 16.1-253.4, 16.1-278.2 through 16.1-278.6, 16.1-278.8, 16.1-278.14, 16.1-278.15, 16.1-279.1, 19.2-152.8, 19.2-152.9 or § 19.2-152.10 or an ex parte order issued pursuant to § 20-103, and after having been served with such order, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. This section shall not be construed to affect in any way the provisions of §§ 18.2-132 through 18.2-136. (again, emphasis mine)

    There is more to be seen in the trespassing sections of the code.

    There is also the "concealed means concealed" school of thought. Really, as in all laws, it's up to you to determine whether the consequences of being caught breaking a law are worth it to you.

    If it came down to it in court, you've demonstrated by posting here you were aware of the restrictions, therefore you've been notified.

    There are worse fates than a trespassing charge, IMHO. YMMV.
    You are correct Tess, IMO :^). My opinion is if a store doesn't want me carrying in their establishment they should put a "no guns" sign right where I grab the handle of the door. If I don't see a sign there I DO NOT GO LOOKING FOR ONE! The rational there is that it's not my job to inform myself of "their" policies Beyond common courtesy and law it is "their" job to inform me. So unless they have a big sign that I have to walk right past (and doesn't take forever to read) or they have a sticker on the door, I carry.

    But as I mentioned in my other thread there are IMO issues of private property wherein the public is allowed on without any "active" regulation of who is coming onto the property. See my other thread for more details.

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    Neplusultra wrote:
    Freeflight wrote:
    Never Ask permission, ALWAYS carry. don't ask Don't Tell... Especially in Gun free Zones...thats where you need it the most.
    I agree with that. But let's take it one more step. Private property rights! I think a reconsideration needs be. A public mall where "anyone" can enter without security is much different than say my home where I invite people I know to a party. I can restrict what people bring into my home but I also know everyone there. A mall, even though it is private property is not "private", like my home. I actively regulate who comes into my house, they do not! (Did you notice the photos from the shopping mall shooting story, they "beefed up" security. Added more guards, all of whom are unarmed!!! HA!)

    Because they do not actively regulate those who enter (security check points) they give up their rights to regulate my behaviour because they are not and cannot protect me. With all these shootings a reality, whose rights trump the others? My right to life or their right to control their property? Since I was not invited specifically and the mall is open to everyone, effectively including those who have guns with ill intent, then I say my right to life supercedes their rights of private property. Rights cannot contradict one another. One of the two has to give up their rights. Are they really saying I'm giving up my right to life when I enter their mall?????

    Sounds like a SCOTUS case to me .
    Private property HOME is different from Private Property/Public Access IMO.

    All my friends know I am armed,yet I do "Ask" permission for entry into the home. Every time... I just don't assume. (All my Friends know it’s a package deal…Love me, Love my gun)

    Entry into a "Private Property" that is open to the public is not a Home, I never ask, I never tell, (except here on Opencarry.org) They can put all the signs up they want I will still ignore them.

    Take this scenario: there may be holes in it, keep in mind I'm writing as is occurs to me.

    Enter in a Mall,Private property that exists for the sole purpose of drawing customers to spend money at shops that pay rent (its more like a public street than private property)

    Security guards see you enter, they "Believe" you are Armed... (perhaps you did a security feel/adjustment of weapon, they can see a bulge) so they descend on you...

    The things in () ARE NOT SAIDthey are there as commentary. All your statements must display both Friendliness confidence and calm

    SG: Sir.... sir!!!! a moment with you if we can....

    You: May I help you gentlemen? (What do you idiots wan't now!!!?)

    SG: Yes, do you have a gun?

    You: I have nothing illegal on my person. (2nd amendment says Keep and BEAR arms... not just keep at home... but to Bear them hence nothing "Illegal")

    SG: well you won't mind if we check then???

    You: Yes I mind,I do not consent to any searches.

    SG: Then you will have to leave...

    You: For what reason???

    SG: We believe you are armed....

    You: Well if you don’t want my business,I will leave then... (Everything can end here... just leave... But lets play the game some more....)



    You: You Must be mistaken... (DONT say I'm not armed... Just that they are mistaken...)

    SG: we are not mistaken,come with us.

    you: Why?

    SG: We are calling the police....

    you: oh... (Don’t say OKAY but go with them…aint this fun!!?_)

    SG (somewhere in the back of the mall) We are going to search you now...

    you: ah well you can't. Searching me violates my rights, to search me you will have to single me out and that would be profiling/Prejudice/Wrong.. and that will be very bad for you and the management company that runs the mall.

    SG... we will let the Cops Search you then...

    you.. They will not be able to search me either. They will need articulatable probable cause that a CRIME has been or is about to be committed before they can search me.

    SG, we see a bulge under your clothes.

    you, that is a very PRIVATE and CLOSE PERSONAL MATTER (infer with body language that is very embarrassing... Alot can be done with inflection. They will believe it could be a colostomy bag or other gross something…)

    SG we think its a gun...

    you: I have told you it is a very PRIVATE and close PERSONAL MATTER and I will not discuss it nor let you see it. Are we done here???

    (the same can be done with the POLICE....)

    The police can't search you without Articulatable probable cause or if you give them permission… (JUST SAY NO).

    the Private security company can't search you unless they search EVERYONE and being searched is a condition of entry PRIOR TO ENTRY.

    This whole scenario is firmly in the grey area and based on the 4th and 5th

    Anyway... feel free to join in the game if you have a Mind to... I don't purport to be the final say on any topic. I think it may be fun to explore all the takes on this kind of misdirection games.



    FreeFlight












    And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

    Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William S. Smith in 1787. Taken from Jefferson, On Democracy 20, S. Padover ed., 1939

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    HMDGLOCK wrote:
    I asked a security guard todayfor rules on firearms like the sign on the door says to at my local mall (Westfield Mall).
    You put way more stock into the opinion of a paid security guard then I would. They're good for asking local street toughs to move along, and to dial a phone in the event of an emergency, but for case law. . . .I'd not trust them, especialy since what this one told you was just flat out incorrect!

    Mall Policy is just that. . .policy. Unless the operator's of your localmall introduce and vote on legislation at the county/state court house. . .they are "friendly requests" and not law.
    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when youre serious and when youre being sarcastic. Abraham Lincoln

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    Freeflight wrote:
    They will not be able to search me either. They will need articulatable probable cause that a CRIME has been or is about to be committed before they can search me.

    The police can't search you without Articulatable probable cause or if you give them permission… (JUST SAY NO).
    Just to clarify, articulable reasonable suspision is what's needed to detain and do a Terry pat-down. Probably cause is what's needed for an arrest.

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    Concealed carry in vilation of a posted sign is not illegal unless you get caught. Don't get caught.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

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    Wynder wrote:
    Freeflight wrote:
    They will not be able to search me either. They will need articulatable probable cause that a CRIME has been or is about to be committed before they can search me.

    The police can't search you without Articulatable probable cause or if you give them permission… (JUST SAY NO).
    Just to clarify, articulable reasonable suspision is what's needed to detain and do a Terry pat-down. Probably cause is what's needed for an arrest.
    Yes, that is what I meant to say... and you clarified my inane babling much "More better" Thanks


    And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

    Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William S. Smith in 1787. Taken from Jefferson, On Democracy 20, S. Padover ed., 1939

    Free Flight

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    ChinChin wrote:
    HMDGLOCK wrote:
    I asked a security guard todayfor rules on firearms like the sign on the door says to at my local mall (Westfield Mall).
    You put way more stock into the opinion of a paid security guard then I would. They're good for asking local street toughs to move along, and to dial a phone in the event of an emergency, but for case law. . . .I'd not trust them, especialy since what this one told you was just flat out incorrect!

    Mall Policy is just that. . .policy. Unless the operator's of your localmall introduce and vote on legislation at the county/state court house. . .they are "friendly requests" and not law.
    I did not put any trust in them, all I did was do what the sign said to. I wanted to know what he had to say about it.

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    ama-gi wrote:
    <snip> LEOs and renta cops generally have no clue.
    At least their not drawing unemployment or welfare.

    If the truth be told, blame the state. In VA it is the Dept. of Criminal Justice that sets the minimal level of standards for training for both LE and security. There is NO INCENTIVE for either to learn more that what they are taught in their respective classes or by their employers. Those that do strive to learn, do so because they want to. Sometimes, they are even ridiculed for trying to improve their knowledge especially those in the security field.

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    Freeflight wrote:
    Private property HOME is different from Private Property/Public Access IMO.

    All my friends know I am armed,yet I do "Ask" permission for entry into the home. Every time... I just don't assume. (All my Friends know it’s a package deal…Love me, Love my gun)

    Entry into a "Private Property" that is open to the public is not a Home, I never ask, I never tell, (except here on Opencarry.org) They can put all the signs up they want I will still ignore them.
    You have either "Public Property" and "Private Property" you could be on at any given time. Here are the definitions for each.



    Public Property
    http://www.legal-explanations.com/definitions/public-property.htm

    It refers to any property that is owned by government.The government owned property is offered for use of public at large like that of parks, libraries, lakes, pathways etc.



    Private Property
    http://www.legal-explanations.com/definitions/private-property.htm

    It is a system to allocate the ownership of pieces of land to particular people,who exercise full control on it without the society or the government having any ownership or legal right unlike common property.


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    ChinChin wrote:
    HMDGLOCK wrote:
    I asked a security guard todayfor rules on firearms like the sign on the door says to at my local mall (Westfield Mall).
    You put way more stock into the opinion of a paid security guard then I would. They're good for asking local street toughs to move along, and to dial a phone in the event of an emergency, but for case law. . . .I'd not trust them, especialy since what this one told you was just flat out incorrect!

    Mall Policy is just that. . .policy. Unless the operator's of your localmall introduce and vote on legislation at the county/state court house. . .they are "friendly requests" and not law.
    So if I post signs on my property that say no trespassing... that is just a request?

    Having a sign up dealing with firearms is NOT a request. It is a big step above "Shirt and Shoes required." The property owner does not desire to have dangerous items on the property.

    The state has already clarified this fact in the cite that Tess provided.

    18.2-308.

    "The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property."

    This clearly addresses that just because you have a CC permit... you cannot take a gun on property that has identified guns are not allowed.

    Therefore.... your ARE trespassing if you enter private property that has a sign clearly displayed.

    THIS IS NOT A "FRIENDLY" REQUEST!!!

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    yeah those little stickers are just all out fear inducing items arnt they? love it when the most robbed bank in the usa has them, i trust my self to them completly hide behind one of those little stickers before i hide behind bulletproof glass....:celebratesorry had a moment there dont ask and dont advertise. find it if you can

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    If a 'no traipsing' sign is so powerful then how come a cop always gets involved in traipsing cases?

    A sign is moot lest the proprietor restrain the violator from curing his violation.

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. LAB/NRA/GOP *******

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